Fire Dodge Talk

[Got5onIt]

So if Kragthore is available & Dodge goes 2-10 this year, you stick it out with TD???? I was NEVER on board with the Dodge hiring.

Edited October 15, 2009 by Got5onIt

[FloMoGrad]

It is incredibly frustrating to be 1-4, when we should probably be 3-2 at this point. But, I see a cruel twist of fate in the near future for this team, even though right now the lynch mobs are out (understandably so).

I don't expect much the rest of this year outside of being competitive. But, next year I can see 7 or 8 wins for this team in Dodge's 4th year (especially if both Cole and Stradford match expectations). Then, the 5th year could be even better due to the maturation of youth and the continued buildup of talent.

What happens then ? At that point everyone will be sucked up in a wave of optimism, just to have the rug pulled out when TD gets a bigger contract elsewhere after his 5th season (his last under the current contract).

At that point, we start the cycle all over again with a new coach. This is the sad life of a North Texas fan. But, we should at least have that new stadium to help in the next coaching search

Well Said..This is one of my biggest fears...When he does turn this around and it starts rolling, our first bowl game and he could be snatched up by a mid tier BCS and get a nice payday and upgrade and we're left with our thumbs up our collective arses...

I still think we have the pieces to roll off a 5 or 6 win season this year. The imporvement I see, and the attitude of the players this year, is my reason for sticking around thru next year...We're better than we were and return at least 16 of our 22 starters on both sides of the ball. We're poised and ready for a takeoff, just got to get out of our own way.

[greenminer]

Wasn't Hawkins at Boise State when he said "Tradition never graduates"

The point is, you get the foundation rebuilt so the next guy can just keep the thing rolling.

[soonerdon]

I love how you think know so much about me, SUMG. Am I to assume that you are Rick Villareal's new toady, following me around the board? Will you ferret out my cell phone number and give it to Rick like his last toady? We had a nice little talk in the spring when he finally used it. He never took up my offer for lunch, though, like he said he would. He's a busy man. I understand.

What good would it do to talk to you on the phone or even in person! It's obvious that your a paranoid psycho.

Maybe you can go one step further than his last toady and stake out my house, see what my personal habits are. Peep through the window at my wife...try to give candy to my kids...sift through my garbage cans out back. Perhaps you could peek into my mail box to make sure everything was addressed to me and not Kenny Evans.

Since you're probably in a same sex relationship no one wants to peep through your window.

You could tailgate me all the way up 380 to the remaining UNT home games, just to make sure I'm there. You could sit right behind me...maybe lick the salt off the peanut shells I discard or eat the ice out of my drink when I'm finished with it or waggle some M&Ms off my kids.

No one wants to do that....You should be barred from the games.

And, just think, you'd be doing all of this just because I have a different opinion about the direction of my alma mater's football program than you do.

Your opinion is different alright....it's insane as always....but as the old saying from François-Marie Arouet goes "I disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" Just funnin with you Lonnie. You have every right to say what you feel...that's what forums are for. I do think as others do that one more year then the honeymoon is over.

Edited October 15, 2009 by soonerdon

[EagleGreen]

I love how you think know so much about me, SUMG. Am I to assume that you are Rick Villareal's new toady, following me around the board? Will you ferret out my cell phone number and give it to Rick like his last toady? We had a nice little talk in the spring when he finally used it. He never took up my offer for lunch, though, like he said he would. He's a busy man. I understand.

Maybe you can go one step further than his last toady and stake out my house, see what my personal habits are. Peep through the window at my wife...try to give candy to my kids...sift through my garbage cans out back. Perhaps you could peek into my mail box to make sure everything was addressed to me and not Kenny Evans.

You could tailgate me all the way up 380 to the remaining UNT home games, just to make sure I'm there. You could sit right behind me...maybe lick the salt off the peanut shells I discard or eat the ice out of my drink when I'm finished with it or waggle some M&Ms off my kids.

And, just think, you'd be doing all of this just because I have a different opinion about the direction of my alma mater's football program than you do.

YES! Hell YES! We need more of this! Keep it coming TFLF.

[gangrene]

So if Kragthore is available & Dodge goes 2-10 this year, you stick it out with TD???? I was NEVER on board with the Dodge hiring.

You're assuming that Kragthorpe would take the HC job at UNT?

While I do support TD, I also expect more than 2 wins this season. I find consolation in knowing we could very easily be 3-2 or 4-1 right now (of course I would MUCH rather have the wins). That's the kind of competitive improvement I was hoping for prior to the season. However, this team needs to continue to improve for the remainder of the season and, after two close losses, wins will be the only signs of further improvement from my perspective...anything less will translate to a step backwards. And, anything less than three wins and I'm out for Dodge Ball - Part IV. While a 3-9 record is definitely nothing to get excited about, it is a sign of progress, provided we remain competitive in every game for the remainder of the season. This team will not lose many players to graduation and we have some really exciting players available next season. I think the experience and talent could result in winning record in 2010.

Well Said..This is one of my biggest fears...When he does turn this around and it starts rolling, our first bowl game and he could be snatched up by a mid tier BCS and get a nice payday and upgrade and we're left with our thumbs up our collective arses...

Honestly, I think that is the least of our concerns right now. Let's worry about that when it happens. However, if the scenario plays out, hopefully, the program will have plenty of talent in the cupboard, a new stadium and enough fan support to be an attractive job for a good coach to step in and not miss a beat.

OK, now this thread is waaaaay off topic and getting too creepy for me too....I'm out.

[GreenStreet]

You're right! I am always amazed in my industry how impatient people are with new hires. I mean, we just had a guy fired and was only in his position for 4 years. You have to give people time to adjust!

Dodge has only been the coach for 3 years (this December). Three years is just not enough time for someone to learn their new job. True he has been coaching for 22 years, but dammit we have to give him time to gain experience at this level! We should give him at least 7 or 8 years to get his system in place, make the right personnel changes, recruit his own players, etc.

Be patient! Just a few more years left!

Shouldn't a good coach have the team turned around in a two season time?

[BIG DAWG]

Shouldn't a good coach have the team turned around in a two season time?

No

[Mean Green 93-98]

At the beginning of the season, most of us (not all), said we wanted noticeable improvement. That can be most certainly be measured by looking at things other than win/loss total.

Responding to Flyer's poll at the beginning of the season, "How Many Wins to Save Dodge," I said,

If I had to pick a number I would say 5, but our competitiveness in games will be a major factor as well. If we win 5, and get blown out in 7, I think he's gone. But if we win 3-4 but remain competitive in all except Alabama, he will probably be back.

In the poll, the vast majority of respondents said 4-5 wins would keep him here. That total is still certainly attainable. But regardless, we are seeing better football, and far more competitive football, than in any season since 2004. A couple less picks, a couple less penalties and we've got the wins--we're 3-2 at worst. And as disappointed as I have been at some of those losses, things will change. We're not getting the wins yet, but how can anyone not see that we're on the right track?

[greenminer]

No

Two seperate debates?

1) Can a coach have his system fully in place before 5 years?

2) Can a coach turn things around in 2 - 3 years?

[Green Dozer]

I just do not get the feeling that there is any major concerns about Dodge except here on the board. But it is a good sign that there are people who care. At the coach's show on Monday, when Dodge and George were going over the improvements from last year and alluded to how close we are to this team learning how to win(Translation=glossing or putting lipstick on the loss), having a break out game RV was nodding and smiling in complete agreement. I also do not think anybody is calling from the chancelorr's or the president's office with concern as to how things are going. I also look back on RV's talk at the picnic earlier this year, and I did not sense that Dodge has any ultimatium as for as the # of wins he needs to keep his job. I think he could keep things close, have 1 or 2 more wins this year, and he keeps his job. I still hold belief that when he took over here, this program was at rock bottom. The only difference in between us and another college starting a program was that we actually fielded a team in our first couple of years.

And you better be careful what you wish for. If Dodge were fired, and lets say hypothetically RV walks with him or is fired to, then I believe the admin will put the brakes on the stadium project and the excuse will be to get things settled in the athletic department. Just my opinion.

ON THE BRIGHT SIDE, NOBODY CARED AND DEBATED ALL THESE ISSUES 10 YEARS AGO, SO THINGS ARE BETTER ON THE FAN SIDE OF THINGS!

[untjim1995]

Two seperate debates?

1) Can a coach have his system fully in place before 5 years?

2) Can a coach turn things around in 2 - 3 years?

I believe yes is the answer on both questions. I think about the job Todd Graham did at Rice or Steve Kragthorpe did at Tulsa as great examples of this, as was the amazing job Franchione did at TCU. When Fran got to TCU, the year before they won 1 game--albeit a great win over SMU that kept them out of a bowl game (just as we did to them in 2006--hehe). The next year, Fran's Frogs went 6-5 and were awarded a bid to the Sun Bowl, in part because they didn't leave the WAC and the UTEP fans out there stood up for their fellow conference mate. That TCU team then beat USC. BTW, in each case listed above, all three coaches were gone within four years of their hire date to other schools up the food chain.

[foutsrouts]

Two seperate debates?

1) Can a coach have his system fully in place before 5 years?

2) Can a coach turn things around in 2 - 3 years?

I'm not yet really a Dodge basher, but does he really even have a D1 system to have fully in place? His system was clearly high school when he got here, and he appears to be SLOWLY learning and making adaptations which will HOPEFULLY result in a high quality D1 system. I just wish he would speed his learning process up a bit. In all seriousness, I am pleased with the improvement of this year's team and with the quality of recruits that he is pulling in here. The staff, along with our QB, just need to learn how to turn this improvement into W's posthaste or the "Fire Dodge Talk" will soon get much louder.

[UNTLifer]

I do not agree with new hire comparison-this is more comparable to turning around a whole company and in a bad economy. It will simply take more time, Dodge inherited a horrible team.

The talent he has assembled thus far is impressive that buys him more time alone IMO

This is a TEAM sport, fans forget this. It is extreme oversimplification to blame one person, yes he is "CEO" but he needs all the pieces in place first, before we judge. I think he will be there next year as far as having what he needs talent and depth wise.

I also understand the frustration, but realize it is human nature to be impatient, I want to win today but it is not turning out that way. HOLD ON and enjoy the beer and bbq.

Amen.

[gangrene]

I just do not get the feeling that there is any major concerns about Dodge except here on the board. But it is a good sign that there are people who care. At the coach's show on Monday, when Dodge and George were going over the improvements from last year and alluded to how close we are to this team learning how to win(Translation=glossing or putting lipstick on the loss), having a break out game RV was nodding and smiling in complete agreement. I also do not think anybody is calling from the chancelorr's or the president's office with concern as to how things are going. I also look back on RV's talk at the picnic earlier this year, and I did not sense that Dodge has any ultimatium as for as the # of wins he needs to keep his job. I think he could keep things close, have 1 or 2 more wins this year, and he keeps his job. I still hold belief that when he took over here, this program was at rock bottom. The only difference in between us and another college starting a program was that we actually fielded a team in our first couple of years.

Well, that's basically the measuring stick RV had before the season began - RV Chat transcript:

11:54

[Comment From Brett ]

In your opinion, what will constitute a successful 2009 football season? Do you have a certain number of wins in mind? Will there be significant changes if the team repeats the one-win season of 2008?

12:00

Rick V:

The expectations of myself and of Coach Dodge is that we have to see progress in the number of wins and the competitiveness of our teams. Especially in SBC games, we should be nearning that point where everyone of those games is winnable and when its over we had a chance to walk away with a W.

We must elminate those games where the margin of loss is substantial. That being said there are a number of factors that effect the football season, injuries, etc, and is something we will evaluate when we get to December.

I'd say the 2009 season is living up to RV's expectations thus far. One more win and we double 2008's total and we've already "nearned" that point where the SBC games are all winnable. Looks like we've already "'elminated' those games where the margin of loss is substantial" too.

[gangrene]

Expect more, demand more of your program!

Every time I do that, I am pounded into submission by reminders that we don't have enough money to afford better coaches, we don't need more seats in our stadium because we can't even sell out Fouts, etc. etc...that whole "we're just little ole North Texas routine." So, I'm left with only three options:

1. Recognize progress in small doses and try to envision better days ahead.

2. Join the "negative crowd" and be constantly pissed off and complain. (I've tried this in the past and I wasn't a very pleasant person to be around!)

3. Stop following/supporting the program altogether.

[oldschoollefty]

Every time I do that, I am pounded into submission by reminders that we don't have enough money to afford better coaches, we don't need more seats in our stadium because we can't even sell out Fouts, etc. etc...that whole "we're just little ole North Texas routine." So, I'm left with only three options:

1. Recognize progress in small doses and try to envision better days ahead.

2. Join the "negative crowd" and be constantly pissed off and complain. (I've tried this in the past and I wasn't a very pleasant person to be around!)

3. Stop following/supporting the program altogether.

Option 1 for me...

At first glance, 1-4 is butt ugly. However, excluding the 'Bama game, all contests we've played have been in doubt until the 4th quarter. I don't know about the rest of you, but I have some real bad memories of games being out of hand by the 1st quarter last season. I would love to see more wins right now too but I'm willing to see the "half full" glass of Kool Aid in front of me and appreciate the fact that this teams stock is on the rise. There's plenty of time in '09 to make this season bearable in terms of record and with another solid recruiting class and the help that is on the way, '10 looks pretty tasty.

[MeanGreenHoops]

I'd say the 2009 season is living up to RV's expectations thus far. One more win and we double 2008's total and we've already "nearned" that point where the SBC games are all winnable. Looks like we've already "'elminated' those games where the margin of loss is substantial" too.

Really? We've had two SBC games and we were blown out at the half in one of them.

[KRAM1]

Really? We've had two SBC games and we were blown out at the half in one of them.

I seem to recall a pretty good comeback in one and a loss in the last seconds in the other. I didn't think it was considered a "blow-out" until the game was played, and as I recall there are four parts of equal time to a football game. You have a very "interesting" concept of "blown out" in my opinion.

GO MEAN GREEN!

[akriesman]

I believe yes is the answer on both questions. I think about the job Todd Graham did at Rice or Steve Kragthorpe did at Tulsa as great examples of this, as was the amazing job Franchione did at TCU. When Fran got to TCU, the year before they won 1 game--albeit a great win over SMU that kept them out of a bowl game (just as we did to them in 2006--hehe). The next year, Fran's Frogs went 6-5 and were awarded a bid to the Sun Bowl, in part because they didn't leave the WAC and the UTEP fans out there stood up for their fellow conference mate. That TCU team then beat USC. BTW, in each case listed above, all three coaches were gone within four years of their hire date to other schools up the food chain.

Exactly ! If TD had come out and done the exact same thing here, we would be facing the same situation. In that case, the only thing keeping Todd here might have be Riley (who could have took a year off and transferred though).

We took a risk on a guy with no HC experience at this level. But, he does have a ton of potential and is looked up to by a lot of blue chip HS players and their parents. Things are taking longer to turn around here. But, in the long run, this might actually be better for the program overall if things start to really turn around in years 4 and 5, instead of 2 and 3. As UntJim says, coaches that turn things around quickly are highly sought after. We just don't have the resources (right now) to retain coaches like that.

I was initially happy with the hire and I still am, despite the fact that I thought we would be seeing more victories by year 3. The Ohio and ULL games were hair-pulling disasters. But, if you look at things with an open mind, you have to be pleased with the team improvement overall.

One thing for sure. It is going to be interesting to see how the team reacts after the ULL loss. Howard is a pretty good coach and that concerns me. When it comes to experience at this level, he and TD are at opposite ends right now.

[GoMeanGreen1999]

Option 1 for me...

At first glance, 1-4 is butt ugly. However, excluding the 'Bama game, all contests we've played have been in doubt until the 4th quarter. I don't know about the rest of you, but I have some real bad memories of games being out of hand by the 1st quarter last season. I would love to see more wins right now too but I'm willing to see the "half full" glass of Kool Aid in front of me and appreciate the fact that this teams stock is on the rise. There's plenty of time in '09 to make this season bearable in terms of record and with another solid recruiting class and the help that is on the way, '10 looks pretty tasty.

Quoner is going to be upset.

[untjim1995]

Exactly ! If TD had come out and done the exact same thing here, we would be facing the same situation. In that case, the only thing keeping Todd here might have be Riley (who could have took a year off and transferred though).

We took a risk on a guy with no HC experience at this level. But, he does have a ton of potential and is looked up to by a lot of blue chip HS players and their parents. Things are taking longer to turn around here. But, in the long run, this might actually be better for the program overall if things start to really turn around in years 4 and 5, instead of 2 and 3. As UntJim says, coaches that turn things around quickly are highly sought after. We just don't have the resources (right now) to retain coaches like that.

I was initially happy with the hire and I still am, despite the fact that I thought we would be seeing more victories by year 3. The Ohio and ULL games were hair-pulling disasters. But, if you look at things with an open mind, you have to be pleased with the team improvement overall.

One thing for sure. It is going to be interesting to see how the team reacts after the ULL loss. Howard is a pretty good coach and that concerns me. When it comes to experience at this level, he and TD are at opposite ends right now.

I also thought that year 3 would be when we would be ready to make a run at 6-6 or better, but after year 2 was so bad, I had to change my expectations to make it year 4 to at least get to 6-6. This year, my expectations were to win 3 games--we EASILY could already be there now, but it hasn't happened so I will still stand by my original hope to get there. BTW, I didn't think we would even have a win yet this season when I looked at the schedule in August. I figured our first win would be against WKU, then we would beat ULM and Army at home. My fear was that we either wouldn't get to three wins--still possible, I suppose, but even worse would be that fans were leaving games at halftime because we were losting 42-7 like last year. that hasn't been the case yet, and I do think that as the year progresses, we will see some wins, maybe even more than 3 that I originally hoped for.

[Green Mean]

I am the first one to admit that I am not a fan of Dodge and think has been a bullet in the brain pan as a coach here at NT but there has been overall improvement this year as far as being more competitive. My opinion is we see how this year ends up as far as wins and losses and based on that the decision would be if he stays or goes. I don't fault Riley much since he is a freshman and qb's will make mistakes so I am willing to give him some slack. But a 4-25 record in any level of sports should be unacceptable and ultimately that is what matters.

[Guest GrayEagleOne]

At second glance 1-4 is still butt ugly. We should be willing to cut some slack because

1. Much of the legitimate Division 1A talent had disappeared by the time Dodge got here.

2. The drug problem that was unknown to most of us.

3. The loss of scholarships due to deficiency in the APR.

4. The racism accusation was a distraction. Not a major distraction but a distraction nonetheless.

5. Dodge's system was the antithesis to the players on hand.

6. The team concept had to be instilled.

7. Dodge had a learning curve on being a college head coach.

8. He did not have enough time to assemble a college coaching staff. In retrospect he should have retained the more competent from Dickey's staff.

All except #8 have pretty well been overcome and there is little in the way of an excuse for the current losses. While we do see improvement in all areas it has not manifested itself to the win column. Dodge has done a very good job (perhaps excellent under the conditions) in recruiting. I feel that it is on par with the rest of the SBC although, in some cases, a little younger. But now is where the rubber meets the road. Improvement is good; improvement in wins is better.

Frankly, if we don't see at least four wins this season we could lose a lot of fans (and financial support). I appreciate the talent that Dodge and staff have garnered and his efforts toward the new stadium. However, the name of the game is WINNING. So far we haven't seen that and, at the present, don't know if this staff is capable of that. Perhaps this week will be the start of something big. I sure hope so.

Edited October 16, 2009 by GrayEagleOne

[LongJim]

All except #8 have pretty well been overcome and there is little in the way of an excuse for the current losses. While we do see improvement in all areas it has not manifested itself to the win column. Dodge has done a very good job (perhaps excellent under the conditions) in recruiting. I feel that it is on par with the rest of the SBC although, in some cases, a little younger. But now is where the rubber meets the road. Improvement is good; improvement in wins is better.

Frankly, if we don't see at least four wins this season we could lose a lot of fans (and financial support). I appreciate the talent that Dodge and staff have garnered and his efforts toward the new stadium. However, the name of the game is WINNING. So far we haven't seen that and, at the present, don't know if this staff is capable of that. Perhaps this week will be the start of something big. I sure hope so.

Pretty good post, GEO. I agree with all of this.