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Harry Veteran

Harry

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3 minutes ago, untbowler said:

It has lots of potential if the right coach is hired. So yes it is a good job and contrary to what Vito thinks, the cupboard is not bare

I agree 100%.  Just rewind to when Benford was hired.  This was a pretty highly sought after job.  We've certainly seen better days but the potential remains.

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EagleMBA Newbie

EagleMBA

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It is a "good Job" if you are a coach with the attitude "Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!" and you have something to prove. Any positive waves a coach makes here will get him noticed. This is a good job for a hard-charging young coach ready to step up OR for an established coach with a good overall record who has had a couple of poor seasons and finds himself under pressure. JMO.

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GrandGreen Grand Master

GrandGreen

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It is not a good job, it is an excellent one; for a number of reasons.   Number one, and although this is true for most sports is location.   There are as many great bb players in this area as any other.  Jones also showed NT can be a springboard into a bigger paying gig.   I have elaborated that there is at least a nucleus of a good team returning.

Although the program is way down at the moment, again under Jones it was demonstrated that there will be support for a good program here.  

I also believe that NT will offer a very competitive package for the right candidate.   Baker's background in BB should also be a plus to many.   Partly because of the futility of Benford, NT is a place for the right coach to quickly make a very positive impression.    

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Mean_Green09 Newbie

Mean_Green09

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I think we could have a lot of good interest in this job once it opens if the AD is willing to spend some $. If we kept the pay near what its at you'll probably end up with an assistant coach or retread.

If Scott Cross leaves UTA we can certainly claim the 3rd best spot in the DFW area. I dont think we will ever be able to catch up to TCU or SMU. 

The cupboard bare thing is half right. There are some decent pieces to work with, but there is less talent than when Benford took over. Some good coaching could fix a few things and get us back to .500 or right above next year. 

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MeanGreenTexan Grand Master

MeanGreenTexan

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1 hour ago, Mean_Green09 said:

I think we could have a lot of good interest in this job once it opens if the AD is willing to spend some $. If we kept the pay near what its at you'll probably end up with an assistant coach or retread.

If Scott Cross leaves UTA we can certainly claim the 3rd best spot in the DFW area. I dont think we will ever be able to catch up to TCU or SMU. 

The cupboard bare thing is half right. There are some decent pieces to work with, but there is less talent than when Benford took over. Some good coaching could fix a few things and get us back to .500 or right above next year. 

6 years ago SMU basketball was in the toilet and UNT was cruising to the SBC title game.

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Side Show Joe Newbie

Side Show Joe

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It a fantastic job!!!

You get paid more then a million dollar over a five year span,....

Most private sector jobs don't pay that much. If you stink and do a terrible job, you are gone after five seasons. But, you do get to finish out your contract, and $1,000,000+ goes a long way if you are smart with your money.

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TheTastyGreek Collaborator

TheTastyGreek

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It's not a good job for the sort of coach some of us think we ought to demand (proven, successful, experienced HC, hot name, heralded assistant, etc.), and it's a pretty good job for the sort of coach many people will get upset about us hiring (2nd or 3rd assistant on a strong mid-major or lower tier power conference team). 

If you're in it for money, a mid-level power conference team generally pays at least one and sometimes two assistants more money than what we're paying Benford and what we're likely to pay our next coach, even if we bump the salary by 25%. It's why even some successful mid- or low-major coaches leave their gigs for assistant jobs these days. So, if you're an established assistant in the right situation, you'll make more money staying put than working for us. 

If you're a guy that wants to be a head coach for its own sake, you don't have to jump on a job like ours just because it's open and other opportunities are relatively limited, like we might see in football. There are triple the number of D1 teams playing top division basketball as there are playing football. So, if you want to be a head coach, there are as many reasons to avoid us as there are to come here, and 20-40 jobs (depending on how many fire/retire openings hire other active head coaches lower on the food chain) opening up each year. 

If you're in it for fame or acclaim, you'll be better off going somewhere that basketball is the big (or only) major sport, and/or where your team is the big show in town. Ideally, somewhere with a history of success and taking the sport seriously, and a consistent (not one-off) track record of rewarding coaches or providing them opportunities to grow and move up. WKU, Murray State, something like that. 

If you're in it to climb the ladder, we're not a particularly good school and definitely not a good conference for that to happen. You need to make the NCAA tournament to get on a big school's radar, and we're in a situation (not likely to improve within the next 2-3 years) where we're an obvious one-bid league. So, even if you can come in, and win quickly, and rack up 20+ win seasons... You're in the same situation you'd be in in the Sun Belt, or the OVC, or the Summit, or any one of a number of leagues that are likely easier for you to come in and mop up, especially if you take over a successful team from a successful coach that moved up in the world. Gotta win your tournament, or you'll never register for a power conference job. So, if you're angling for the big job, why slug it out with WKU and UTEP and Old Dominion and the other schools in this league that take basketball seriously, when 50-75% of the league will drag you all down so badly each year that you're fighting each other for one slot in the tournament? Why not either go lower and take over a surging program, or go higher (in conference level AND money) and try to rebuild an A-10, MWC, AAC-level school where, if you can win games consistently, you aren't betting your career growth on just a timely hot streak the first week of March?

There are at least 3 programs I expect to replace a coach this offseason that are going to be after the exact same sort of candidates we'll want: Missouri State, Duquesne, and Indiana State. And it's not hard to make a case that any or all of them will be more attractive, because of money, profile, history, opportunity, talent base, or a combination of those things, than our job. As a homer, it's nice to think that we're more attractive and we ought to be the more appealing job... But as a stone cold realist, it's easy to see why anyone could potentially prefer any of those three to our gig. And that's to say nothing of the guys who think they're one season away from an even bigger opportunity than any of the four of us, and are willing to let their chips ride for a shot at a power conference opening. 

So... Is it a good gig? Well, if you're an assistant like Justin Hutson, already open to considering a HC job at places like San Diego? Maybe. If you're willing to move away from your recruiting pipeline in California, and you don't think you'll get consideration for a bigger opening without trying your luck somewhere like UNT first. 

Or, if you're an assistant like Michael Lewis, and you're willing to take your grab at the head coaching brass ring for a $100k annual raise and 2 year increase in the guaranteed money you're already getting from Nebraska as their 2nd or 3rd assistant? Maybe, if you think you can recruit outside the midwest, and do it quickly. 

But if you're a current head coach, and you're successful already, and you're under contract for a while, and you have things humming merrily along at your current gig? No, this isn't a very attractive job at all.

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BillySee58 Grand Master

BillySee58

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Look at the caliber of prospects we've signed in the last 6 years

https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/33678

https://rivals.com/content/prospects/30614

https://rivals.com/content/prospects/83520

http://www.espn.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/73058/tony-mitchell

http://www.espn.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/170930/greg-wesley

https://rivals.com/content/prospects/68803

http://www.espn.com/college-sports/basketball/recruiting/player/_/id/187935/rickey-brice

https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/20521

And transfers:

https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/36358

https://n.rivals.com/content/prospects/11075

If a coach can recruit, they'll end up landing some good prospects here.

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untjim1995 Grand Master

untjim1995

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10 hours ago, TheTastyGreek said:

It's not a good job for the sort of coach some of us think we ought to demand (proven, successful, experienced HC, hot name, heralded assistant, etc.), and it's a pretty good job for the sort of coach many people will get upset about us hiring (2nd or 3rd assistant on a strong mid-major or lower tier power conference team). 

If you're in it for money, a mid-level power conference team generally pays at least one and sometimes two assistants more money than what we're paying Benford and what we're likely to pay our next coach, even if we bump the salary by 25%. It's why even some successful mid- or low-major coaches leave their gigs for assistant jobs these days. So, if you're an established assistant in the right situation, you'll make more money staying put than working for us. 

If you're a guy that wants to be a head coach for its own sake, you don't have to jump on a job like ours just because it's open and other opportunities are relatively limited, like we might see in football. There are triple the number of D1 teams playing top division basketball as there are playing football. So, if you want to be a head coach, there are as many reasons to avoid us as there are to come here, and 20-40 jobs (depending on how many fire/retire openings hire other active head coaches lower on the food chain) opening up each year. 

If you're in it for fame or acclaim, you'll be better off going somewhere that basketball is the big (or only) major sport, and/or where your team is the big show in town. Ideally, somewhere with a history of success and taking the sport seriously, and a consistent (not one-off) track record of rewarding coaches or providing them opportunities to grow and move up. WKU, Murray State, something like that. 

If you're in it to climb the ladder, we're not a particularly good school and definitely not a good conference for that to happen. You need to make the NCAA tournament to get on a big school's radar, and we're in a situation (not likely to improve within the next 2-3 years) where we're an obvious one-bid league. So, even if you can come in, and win quickly, and rack up 20+ win seasons... You're in the same situation you'd be in in the Sun Belt, or the OVC, or the Summit, or any one of a number of leagues that are likely easier for you to come in and mop up, especially if you take over a successful team from a successful coach that moved up in the world. Gotta win your tournament, or you'll never register for a power conference job. So, if you're angling for the big job, why slug it out with WKU and UTEP and Old Dominion and the other schools in this league that take basketball seriously, when 50-75% of the league will drag you all down so badly each year that you're fighting each other for one slot in the tournament? Why not either go lower and take over a surging program, or go higher (in conference level AND money) and try to rebuild an A-10, MWC, AAC-level school where, if you can win games consistently, you aren't betting your career growth on just a timely hot streak the first week of March?

There are at least 3 programs I expect to replace a coach this offseason that are going to be after the exact same sort of candidates we'll want: Missouri State, Duquesne, and Indiana State. And it's not hard to make a case that any or all of them will be more attractive, because of money, profile, history, opportunity, talent base, or a combination of those things, than our job. As a homer, it's nice to think that we're more attractive and we ought to be the more appealing job... But as a stone cold realist, it's easy to see why anyone could potentially prefer any of those three to our gig. And that's to say nothing of the guys who think they're one season away from an even bigger opportunity than any of the four of us, and are willing to let their chips ride for a shot at a power conference opening. 

So... Is it a good gig? Well, if you're an assistant like Justin Hutson, already open to considering a HC job at places like San Diego? Maybe. If you're willing to move away from your recruiting pipeline in California, and you don't think you'll get consideration for a bigger opening without trying your luck somewhere like UNT first. 

Or, if you're an assistant like Michael Lewis, and you're willing to take your grab at the head coaching brass ring for a $100k annual raise and 2 year increase in the guaranteed money you're already getting from Nebraska as their 2nd or 3rd assistant? Maybe, if you think you can recruit outside the midwest, and do it quickly. 

But if you're a current head coach, and you're successful already, and you're under contract for a while, and you have things humming merrily along at your current gig? No, this isn't a very attractive job at all.

Man, this is so dead-on, its not even funny.

This thing has two things that are attractive for a head coach--the conference is winnable, even with some bigger name programs in it, like WKU, ODU, UAB, UTEP, Charlotte, and MUTS now. It can be done. Now, the second part is that you have a great arena still and good facilities to work with.

My guess is that we will (and should) hire a coach who has had success at Division II here in the Southwest. It will be a step up, for sure, for that coach, and he and his staff will be hungry. I'd much rather go that route than to hire another power league assistant, particularly one who has no idea about the challenges here, from fan support, media coverage, and the complete destruction of the reputation JJ had built here.

I will say this, though, if the next coach we hire is an assistant from a power school that is known as a "recruiter", that will be a disaster again, just as it was with Trilli and Benford.

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TheTastyGreek Collaborator

TheTastyGreek

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6 hours ago, untjim1995 said:

My guess is that we will (and should) hire a coach who has had success at Division II here in the Southwest.

Not trying to pick a personal argument or fight, just using this as a jumpoff point for a hiring thought that's come up a few times here... In my opinion, hiring a current D2, JUCO, or other lower division coach is (potentially) the absolute worst possible decision we could make. There's a reason that, these days, it only ever seems to happen (and even then, rarely) among the very bottom conferences in D1 basketball. Meaning, way, way below CUSA or the Belt. 

Even 10-15 years ago, this might not have been such a bad idea. But the money explosion in D1 sports has so widened the gulf, we ought to be very skeptical why anyone we think is a good fit is active in a lower division instead of coaching (even as an assistant) in the D1 ranks. 

Just to illustrate the point... Back when we hired Johnny Jones, the base salary for the head coach at Nebraska (Barry Collier) was 20% lower than what Michael Lewis is making there as the 2nd or 3rd assistant. Six figure salaries were pretty unusual among assistants, and multi-year deals were very unusual. Now, there's so much money floating around, the #4 guy on the sideline for a Big 10 team with as many NCAA bids over the last 23 years as our school, and that last won their regular season in 1950 (in the Big Seven!) is guaranteed just under three quarters of a million dollars across three years. 

Even in 2000 or 2001, the money gap wasn't anywhere near there. So, a guy who liked where he was, or wanted to be a head coach, or had ties to the program, might stay at a lower division school rather than looking for a D1 assistant job. If you make $50-75k, and your job is secure, and your wife and kids are happy... Is it really worth it to fight for an $80k job where you're taking orders from someone else, and the cost of living may be double what it was in your old job? Especially when they can cut you loose after a year with no penalty? 

Even 15 years ago, sticking around at a D2 or a JUCO (if you were successful and paid well for that level) made sense. The difference between what you could make at that sort of gig and what you'd make as an assistant at a D1 or even a low major head coach wasn't so huge. 

Now, whatever makes you a good coach, whether it's development, recruiting, in-game strategy... If you have it, someone at the D1 level will find you and add you to their staff. And you'll be offered potentially TEN TIMES or more what you make as a D2 or JUCO head coach. So, if you're staying put there... Why? And, is there any answer to "why?" that wouldn't also rule out North Texas? Are you waiting for a big D1 head coaching job? Are you or your family tied to the area? Is there some reason you aren't able to get interest at the D1 level? 

There are a lot of guys coaching as D1 assistants who have experience as a JUCO or D2 head coach. Some of them may have dropped down for a few years to get the title on their resume (like Steve DeMeo seems to be in the middle of doing), some of them may have worked their way up through those ranks to get their D1 opportunity. 

But anyone who is active in a lower division carries an immediate, obvious question mark that makes them (in my opinion) even more risky than a D1 assistant with no head coaching experience. 

Of the guys I assume to be in consideration here, at least one is an active D2 guy and another is a current D1 assistant with a JUCO HC background (and watch everyone's head explode if we hire him, given where he's working as an assistant right now). But I think that if you look at the sort of coaches everyone mentions as "why don't we go get ___" from a perceived lower tier D1 school, almost all of them were inexperienced head coaches before getting the gig that made them so appealing. 

If we can get a guy active at the D1 level as a HC, great. I like Roman Banks! 

if we get a D1 assistant with previous HC experience, either at the D1 level or below, that can be fine too. I like Darrin Horn! I sort of like Unnamed Former JUCO HC and Current D1 Assistant Who Seems To Have A Relationship With Wren Baker And Could Potentially Be A Candidate (Or A Future Top Assistant Under Our Next Coach)!

But if it comes down to a guy currently coaching below D1, I'd need to get a real clear picture of why he's down there, because I'd rather go fish in the D1 assistant pool rather than hire a career D2 or JUCO guy for our job. 

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Harry Veteran

Harry

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Plenty said about why not North Texas... how about why?

Sounds to me that we need a gambler.  I do not dispute any of Tasty's good info, especially the part that the money deal has changed since when we hired Johnny.

That said, we still have the carrot that just 5 years ago our coach was able to parlay his time here into a SEC gig at LSU... that is no small feat..  SMU and TCU can't boast that.

We need a coach looking for a big payoff opportunity.  Come here and win and you could get a fast track to a high profile gig. 

I also think location is a big plus.  We have so much talent around DFW.  Combs wanted to stay close to home, I expect there will be others.  Not to mention the bounce back players like T-Mitch who you may be able to land.

Everyone talks about how why Scott Cross would leave UTA.  My question is, if he is such a valued commodity why would he not get another opportunity already?  I think if Cross was offered this job (and more money/budget) he would still take it.

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greenminer Grand Master

greenminer

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1 minute ago, wardly said:

I was told by someone I trust in the Athletic Department that when J.J. left there was not much interest in or very many coaches applying for his job, which surprised me.Just sharing........

I would suggest maybe that had more to do with perception of RV? I have no idea either way...But if I were applying for a coaching position at a school, I would definitely be looking at the record of the AD's previous hires.

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TheTastyGreek Collaborator

TheTastyGreek

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4 hours ago, Harry said:

I think if Cross was offered this job (and more money/budget) he would still take it.

I think if he wanted this job, he'd could have had it back 5 years ago, when it was way more appealing (assuming he wants to leapfrog to a power league) and the pay increase/guaranteed money bump was more significant. 

Now, he's already under contract through 2020, with guaranteed base salary (not counting incentives) ensuring him over a million more dollars. And that's not counting any raise or extension he may get after this year. 

I think he's a really good coach, I'd be happy to see him here, I'd have been happy to see him here when we hired Benford, but I don't think there's any way he's coming unless leadership changes at UTA and he wants to leave. 

Also, for anyone wondering... Darrin Horn makes $305k as an assistant at Texas. Roman Banks makes just under $200k, under contract through 2020 but with no buyout. 

We can't money-whip Horn, but we could give him an actual raise if he decided he wanted to be a HC again and was willing to try it here. If we went after Banks, we could literally double his money without spending a dime more than we pay Benford. Banks could be ready to move on, since he's almost certainly at or very near the top of what a SWAC school can budget for a coach, and this is his son's last year of college eligibility. 

Any of you guys that are sitting down for romantic breakfasts with Wren Baker or sitting within shouting distance of Jared Mosley... It's pronounced "Row-man". Make sure they know. 

Also, the associate head coach job Banks turned down at A&M (while his kid had years left to play at Southern) would currently be paying him $250k or $300k or $350k, depending on which coach he'd have taken the job from. Assume it's the top salary (that's what Stansbury made before leaving for WKU and a $500k salary), and we'd still be offering slightly more money than he gave up to keep coaching his son and running his own team. Neither of which would factor in as a drawback to taking our job. 

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