50 years ago Hayden Fry hired at NTSU

[Marty]

Starts at 11:26 mark. Morris saying some of the same things that Fry said 50 years ago.

[UNT86]

And it was gold until we couldn't get a bowl invite.  Iowa took advantage and we soon fell back to I-AA with a president that didn't support athletics.  We are still trying to recover.

[NT80]

Hayden Fry was both Head Coach and AD at North Texas.   He was a salesman and a supreme motivator!  Coach Fry changed many things about NT Athletics including our logo and culture.  He took us to heights no one thought possible back then.  

[cogido]

5 hours ago, Marty said:

Starts at 11:26 mark. Morris saying some of the same things that Fry said 50 years ago.

I remember the day so well. As a young NTSU student I bumped in to Coach Fry on Highland St by the old athletic building.  I knew that very day something different was going to happen. It was almost tangible. Coach Rust was gone , end of an era, and things felt electric.

[greenjoe]

When Hayden Fry came to North Texas, we were in the Missouri Valley Conference with teams like Cincinnati, Memphis (State), Tulsa, and Wichita State.  We left the MVC and became an independent (“the Norte Dame of the South”, Hayden said).  Many of our old MVC conference mates later formed the original CUSA while we, with little fan support, dropped down to 1-AA. 
 

I’ve always wondered what would have happened if, instead of waiting for a Southwest Conference invite,  we were more patient, and hung around the MCC a bit longer.  We likely would have been in the original CUSA with Houston, Louisville, SMU, TCU, Tulane, and Southern Miss.  Or maybe not.  Our leadership was lacking in those days.  

[Jonnyeagle]

I know this is probably not a popular opinion around these parts but I hold Coach Fry personally accountable for hurting our athletic program back.  Had he left us in the Missouri Valley conference we would probably be in a Power 5 league at this time.  Fry bet the house on getting into the SWC and it was a pipe dream.  I do believe he would tell you now that decision was a big mistake and if given the chance he would have handled it differently.

[southsideguy]

Did you have to say 50 years ago??????

[NT80]

50 minutes ago, Jonnyeagle said:

I know this is probably not a popular opinion around these parts but I hold Coach Fry personally accountable for hurting our athletic program back.  Had he left us in the Missouri Valley conference we would probably be in a Power 5 league at this time.  Fry bet the house on getting into the SWC and it was a pipe dream.  I do believe he would tell you now that decision was a big mistake and if given the chance he would have handled it differently.

Wrong.  It wasn't just North Texas, the MVC was changing and several schools left.  We left in 1975.  Cincy left in 1970, Memphis in 1973, and Louisville in 1975.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_Valley_Conference

[greenjoe]

Thanks JonnyEagle.  You’re right, it’s not a popular opinion.  But a good “what if” topic.

[falterelite]

On 12/20/2022 at 9:27 AM, Marty said:

Starts at 11:26 mark. Morris saying some of the same things that Fry said 50 years ago. 

coreball

North Texas was a member of the Missouri Valley Conference among schools like Cincinnati, Memphis (State), Tulsa, and Wichita State when Hayden Fry arrived.  After deciding to go it alone, we broke away from the MVC and earned the nickname "the Norte Dame of the South" from Hayden.  While many of our former MVC conference colleagues went on to join the original CUSA, we found ourselves in 1-AA due to a lack of fan support. 

[untjim1995]

What we made the mistake of doing was not leveraging the Old Big Eight against the SWC. Had we showed the Big Eight that we would entertain joining them, as well as the SWC, that league could’ve finally gotten into Texas for everyone to recruit and get TV markets for their schools, too. It may very well have made the SWC reconsider listening to the private schools. Rice couldn’t keep UH from joining and they immediately won big in the SWC. SMU and TCU were both bad at the time and the idea of Hayden Fry bringing NTSU into the SWC and having success like UH did was terrifying. 
 

But the better play would’ve been the Big Eight. We would’ve had Oklahoma, Nebraska, and Colorado at their heights over the next decade and a half. We would’ve had Kansas, OU, Missouri, OSU, K-State, and Iowa State as great basketball opponents. To me, that was the greatest mistake Hayden made. He knew what the MVC couldn’t do for the future. He knew the SWC was king to the region and he shot his shot. But we never had a chance with the leadership and citizenry he and Nolen faced. Denton has either been apathetic or actually loathing of our athletic department for its existence. It loves being the little Austin, just without care for sports. I’ve long come to realize that the location’s culture  is what will always hold us back. You cannot have as large of a university as we do, from enrollment to alumni, as well as a large metro area surrounding it, and think getting an announced crowd of 18k for Homecoming against a very recognizable opponent in a conference game in October is acceptable. But it is what it is and we can do nothing but just accept it for what it is. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by untjim1995

[NT80]

3 hours ago, untjim1995 said:

 Denton has either been apathetic or actually loathing of our athletic department for its existence. It loves being the little Austin, just without care for sports. I’ve long come to realize that the location’s culture  is what will always hold us back. You cannot have as large of a university as we do, from enrollment to alumni, as well as a large metro area surrounding it, and think getting an announced crowd of 18k for Homecoming against a very recognizable opponent in a conference game in October is acceptable. 

I agree about Denton's general apathy toward UNT and it's athletics. Most strong college towns appreciate the revenue and fans the games bring to the community. UT doesn't seem held back by being in Austin. 

I would guess more of our Alums and game fans come from outside Denton than from within the city limits anyway.

Edited October 30, 2023 by NT80

[Hunter Green]

On 12/19/2022 at 10:51 PM, NT80 said:

Hayden Fry was both Head Coach and AD at North Texas.   He was a salesman and a supreme motivator!  Coach Fry changed many things about NT Athletics including our logo and culture.  He took us to heights no one thought possible back then.  

A great moment in NT sports history.

[NT80]

10 hours ago, falterelite said:

North Texas was a member of the Missouri Valley Conference among schools like Cincinnati, Memphis (State), Tulsa, and Wichita State when Hayden Fry arrived.  After deciding to go it alone, we broke away from the MVC and earned the nickname "the Norte Dame of the South" from Hayden.  While many of our former MVC conference colleagues went on to join the original CUSA, we found ourselves in 1-AA due to a lack of fan support. 

As previously mentioned, Cincinnati, Memphis, and Louisville had already left the MVC before we did.  It was falling apart when we opted out to go Independent after 1975.  CUSA was not formed until 1995, which is when we moved back up to 1-A from 1-AA.  We then joined the Big West in 1996, but yes CUSA would have been a better move then, and we probably could have got support from our former MVC opponents.

We had the support of several schools to join the SWC around 1975, but not enough.  We were later (1983) displaced into 1-AA by President Hurley.  He reduced athletic funding, failed to submit a waiver to remain in 1-A which we could have based on using Texas Stadium as an alternate home field (capacity) and basically had disinterest in athletics for UNT in general.

Edited October 30, 2023 by NT80

[EAGLE83]

The problem at that time was the other sports wanted to compete for championships.the students voted to drop down to AA.

[Jonnyeagle]

3 hours ago, untjim1995 said:

But the better play would’ve been the Big Eight. We would’ve had Oklahoma, Nebraska, and Colorado at their heights over the next decade and a half. We would’ve had Kansas, OU, Missouri, OSU, K-State, and Iowa State as great basketball opponents. To me, that was the greatest mistake Hayden made. He knew what the MVC couldn’t do for the future. He knew the SWC was king to the region and he shot his shot. But we never had a chance with the leadership and citizenry he and Nolen faced.

Absolutely was a huge, monumental mistake to abandon the Missouri Valley for the pipedream of the SWC.  Big Eight probably was more reasonable.

[NT80]

1 hour ago, Jonnyeagle said:

Absolutely was a huge, monumental mistake to abandon the Missouri Valley for the pipedream of the SWC.  Big Eight probably was more reasonable.

You don't seem to understand.   All the football schools were leaving the MVC.   It became a basketball conference.

[VideoEagle]

Here's how 1AA happened to NT. 

The NCAA voted for the only time ever to apply a retroactive standard to decide which schools would be moved to 1AA. It was the only time in history they did this. If they try again, they will undoubtedly lose in court. There were a number of ways to stay 1A. We could have stayed 1A IF we had used Texas Stadium as our primary stadium in 1979. The rule passed after the 1979 season, so there was no way to go back and do that after the fact. The NCAA said using it going forward would NOT count. We didn't fit any of the other ways of qualifying - having a big enough stadium, being a member of a conference where at least half of the members qualified for 1A, or several ways of measuring attendance over a period of years. 

At the time, I was told by a friend who was a student working in the athletic department, all the university needed to do was submit a "form" and we'd automatically get to stay 1A. I didn't find out till the 2000s this was not true. The form was a waiver request to stay 1A. I don't know if it was filed or not, but it would not have mattered in either case. The NCAA rejected every waiver - all of them. One school, I think Cincinnati, threatened to take the NCAA to court but the lawyers worked out a deal where Cincinnati had a year (maybe two) to get their attendance up. They did and thus Cincinnati (I think that's who it was) was the only school that didn't qualify retroactively to got to stay 1A. 

There was absolutely nothing NT could have done to NOT drop to 1AA. But, they COULD HAVE immediately started working to move back up which they did not do. Lots of folks blame Hurley, but there was a very strong movement in the faculty to drop football altogether and he opposed that. 

[rcade]

6 hours ago, NT80 said:

We were later (1983) displaced into 1-AA by President Hurley.  He reduced athletic funding, failed to submit a waiver to remain in 1-A which we could have based on using Texas Stadium as an alternate home field (capacity) and basically had disinterest in athletics for UNT in general.

The first thing Big Al Hurley did as UNT president was drop us to I-AA in February 1982.

Here's the story before the vote, where fellow board of regents member Eddie Chiles gave a bunch of sob-sister quotes about all the money we'd been losing under former head coach Bob Tyler:

https://www.newspapers.com/article/fort-worth-star-telegram-north-texas-dec/134366881/

Edited October 31, 2023 by rcade

[SilverEagle]

7 hours ago, VideoEagle said:

One school, I think Cincinnati, threatened to take the NCAA to court but the lawyers worked out a deal where Cincinnati had a year (maybe two) to get their attendance up. They did and thus Cincinnati (I think that's who it was) was the only school that didn't qualify retroactively to got to stay 1A. 

 

It was my understanding that it was LaLa (they were called SW Louisiana State then) that took on the NCAA. I always wondered why NT didn't do the same. Did they not know that this NCAA ruling was coming so that they could designate Texas Stadium as our home field?

[VideoEagle]

6 hours ago, SilverEagle said:

It was my understanding that it was LaLa (they were called SW Louisiana State then) that took on the NCAA. I always wondered why NT didn't do the same. Did they not know that this NCAA ruling was coming so that they could designate Texas Stadium as our home field?

It could have been USL, I’m not certain. I thought their stadium was big enough to qualify. There were several ways to qualify- stadium size, average attendance over a period of years, at least two games over a certain attendance in the same period, and more. The big one was being in a conference where at least half of the other schools qualified as the NCAA didn’t want to mess with conference membership. 

No, they did NOT know it was coming. The rule passed retroactively - if you didn’t qualify when the rule passed there was no period where you could qualify. All of the requirements had to have been fulfilled at the time it passed. We needed to have played most of our games at Texas stadium during Jerry Moore’s time. @Arkstfan knows the details. 

I don’t know the NT internal politics of why it wasn’t fought. I suspect part of it was the total contempt for athletics Bob Tyler created within the university. I’m told multiple administrators from Mississippi State told people at North Texas “don’t hire him.” He nearly got NT on NCAA probation for giving athletes extra benefits. It appears he knowingly spent WAY over budget which angered the Regents. Plus there were a lot of faculty from President Matthews day that wanted football as long of the coach didn’t make more than a Department Chair.
 

I’m certain, though, that just filing the waiver request would not have helped. It possible it WAS filed as the NCAA rejected all the waiver requests. 

[untjim1995]

Whatever the reasons, we had no business being a 1-AA program for 12 years. That killed our meager fanbase that we already had by nuking the few that gave to the program as grads from the 50s thru the 90s. That we have anyone from those years to still attend or give to the program is simply amazing. That’s why you get 18k for your Homecoming against Memphis with an enrollment of 47k and 300k living alumni in a gigantic metro area.

[NT80]

4 hours ago, VideoEagle said:

I don’t know the NT internal politics of why it wasn’t fought. I suspect part of it was the total contempt for athletics Bob Tyler created within the university. I’m told multiple administrators from Mississippi State told people at North Texas “don’t hire him.” He nearly got NT on NCAA probation for giving athletes extra benefits. It appears he knowingly spent WAY over budget which angered the Regents.

Yes, I also heard Bob Tyler was a disaster as an AD and coach.  His only season at NT, 1981, we went 2-9.  Miss St. was put on NCAA probation and forfeited all wins for violations while he was coach there in 1976 and 1977.  Not sure why we hired him in the first place?

[SilverEagle]

1 hour ago, untjim1995 said:

Whatever the reasons, we had no business being a 1-AA program for 12 years. That killed our meager fanbase that we already had by nuking the few that gave to the program as grads from the 50s thru the 90s. That we have anyone from those years to still attend or give to the program is simply amazing. That’s why you get 18k for your Homecoming against Memphis with an enrollment of 47k and 300k living alumni in a gigantic metro area.

(heavy sigh) Look, I know that many out there are going to start rolling their eyes, but here goes again. 

When C.C. (Jitter) Nolan was President of NT and Hayden Fry came to the school. We had NO endowment fund and Hayden Fry started the Mean Green Club. So that would be 1973 when it started......one year ahead of our endowment fund getting started. 

We had no cultural concept of fund raising. Administratively, North Texas was stuck in the 40's, 50's,60's. 

When Hayden Fry was lured away to Iowa, and Jitter Nolan was run out of town on a rail by all the "old nesters" . We culturally reverted to that era.  

All things considered, we were lucky to have 1-AA as an option. Otherwise all those administrative :Mathews-ites would have had us playing against the likes of Sul Ross state and other non-scholarship schools. 

Quote

the few that gave to the program as grads from the 50s thru the 90s.

Grads from the 50's thru 70's had no cultural concept of giving to the athletic department.

Edited October 31, 2023 by SilverEagle

[Cerebus]

On 10/30/2023 at 4:15 PM, VideoEagle said:

There was absolutely nothing NT could have done to NOT drop to 1AA. But, they COULD HAVE immediately started working to move back up which they did not do. Lots of folks blame Hurley, but there was a very strong movement in the faculty to drop football altogether and he opposed that. 

The university could have stayed 1A by expanding seating at Fouts.  However athletics was running deep in the red at the time, and the faculty were so unhappy about the deficit, that no one in leadership was going to try and fight that battle.

Dr. Hurley did great things for the academic side of the house, but he was fully behind dropping to 1AA and focusing on basketball.