Home-home series w/ Liberty

[Mean Green 93-98]

1 minute ago, Cerebus said:

But that is the point of tenure, so that faculty is not under the control of administration.  Whether you like it or not is another argument. 

I don't.  That's what I'm saying.

[outoftown]

3 hours ago, Cerebus said:

Let me clarify my position.  

• Playing G5 teams and lower end P5 teams is exactly what we need to schedule.
• While I would never support being in a conference with Liberty, I don't have a problem scheduling them.

What I have a problem with is that we seem to have struck a bad deal.

We had tremendous leverage over Liberty.  They are desperate to get 3 FBS home games in 2018.   If they don't they fail the process to move to FBS.   If they desperately needed a home game in 2018, why did we just demand one home game as a return in 2021, with no payout to us, and a neutral guarantee?  

People are saying that this is 4 dimensional chess is being played here, and that we don't understand all the moves, and that it will all make sense when future moves are made. Maybe that is true, but it still makes no sense to leave so much leverage on the table.   Even if there are other moves coming in the future this move does look like a good deal.

We had real leverage.  Why didn't we get a 2 for 1?  Why didn't we get a cash payout?  Why didn't they have to agree to an increased ticket allotment here that they had to fund 100%?  Why didn't we at the very least have a large payout to us if they decide to not return the trip in 2021?  

 

I hope Brett Vito has put in his own FOIA request for that contract. Or do people on this board need to do it instead? But like you, I just don't see how this can possibly add up to a sensible move, if UNT indeed got no money and no additional home games or financial guarantees from Liberty. That would indeed smack of a bad contract, as Liberty simply had less leverage than UNT for this negotiation.

[meangreenbob]

2 hours ago, Mean Green 93-98 said:

This is almost certainly a discussion for another forum; but since you brought it up, let me offer my profound disagreement.  Tenure only offers academic freedom to those who have already proved over time that they will toe a certain line.  Which means tenure doesn't really give professors academic freedom.  And certain professors with ulterior agendas have been allowed positions of influence for decades when they should have been fired.  Western higher education had reached excellence for centuries before the modern concept of tenure was implemented; and, interestingly enough, the decline of higher education roughly coincides with the implementation of modern tenure.

Well said. Thank you. Very similar to why we need term limits for those in Congress.

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 10:24 PM, Ryan Munthe said:

Embarrassing. I'd prefer ACU. I'd prefer Houston Baptist.

Liberty is an abhorrent institution that hides bigotry behind religion. That's one of the reasons I'm unhappy about this, but not the only reason. 

Interesting statement. I'll be happy to listen if you want to share some of the ways Liberty hides bigotry behind religion.

Edited May 8, 2017 by meangreenbob

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

1 hour ago, meangreenbob said:

Well said. Thank you. Very similar to why we need term limits for those in Congress.

Interesting statement. I'll be happy to listen if you want to share some of the ways Liberty hides bigotry behind religion.

I'm also for limits of federal judges.  The branches, in my view, are not co-equal if the executive branch is the only one term limited.  I'm certain that conservatives and liberals alike can think of judges and justices they wish were term limited.  I believe all branches or none should be term limited.  

As far as Liberty and bigotry, it's just one of those arguments people make regarding private institutions for having their own rules, regulations, and beliefs.  I could say the Knights of Columbus are bigoted for being a Catholic organization, catering to Catholic principals.  But, why waste time doing so? 

in my view, let birds of a feather flock together, unless they are violent/anarchist.  Liberty is not a place I'd send my kids, but others would.  I feel the same about Baylor and BYU.  To me, you are probably limiting yourself professionally with a degree with those names on it, to a certain extent; but, that is also another discussion. 

In reality, those who get degrees from those type of schools are usually connected enough to have jobs lined up after school anyway.  They have a mindset and will likely stick close to people with the same mindset.  The alumni of those schools are very loyal to its grads.

And, in truth, graduates of liberal schools are the same.  Not everyone is for a school as liberal as, say, the University of Texas.  Not everyone would be down for going to a private, "Church-based" school. 

I think UNT is pretty much in the middle.  I don't know how it is today, but from 1990-95, I had a fair shake with all my professors at UNT.  Outside of my political science classes, I can only think of two professors who were open about their politics - an old, cranky English professor, who was likely a lesbian; and a Logic professor who droned on and on about the rain forests instead of Logic.  After a couple of weeks of class, it was like, "Okay, dude, we get it - you think the rain forests need to be more protected.  Move on, please, we've paid the tuition to study Logic, not listen to extended diatribes about the rain forest situation...as you see it in your head."

The thread discussion, though, is football and whether Liberty's program is worthy of a home and home.  I think they are not.  I much prefer Wren's Tech series and RV's final effort, the Memphis home and home. 

 

Edited May 8, 2017 by MeanGreenMailbox

[forevereagle]

2 hours ago, Ben Gooding said:

Wren knows someone at Liberty, that's as close to a guarantee as there is. If true, he put that relationship in front of the improvement of the program.

Really? Because you don't like the series it automatically means that Wren knows someone at the school and that he views that relationship as more important that the program? You don't even have a thread to pull on there, but you are willing to portray it as a fact. It's ok not to like this series (I am not a fan), but let's not go throwing out crazy accusations just because we don't like it. 

[Ben Gooding]

19 minutes ago, forevereagle said:

Really? Because you don't like the series it automatically means that Wren knows someone at the school and that he views that relationship as more important that the program? You don't even have a thread to pull on there, but you are willing to portray it as a fact. It's ok not to like this series (I am not a fan), but let's not go throwing out crazy accusations just because we don't like it. 

I said if true, it very well could be. It just seems odd that Liberty, of all places, was one of their jet plane detours to check out IPF designs and athletic centers. Just a few months later, we're in a home n home series with them? That's my thread, and yes it is just a thread, to pull on. It just seems odd. 

Funny how 2 posts turn political of 6 pages worth of football and scheduling talk and it gets thrown to the Eagle Nest. Out of sight, out of mind does not work. This doodoo series is not going anywhere, unfortunately. 

[forevereagle]

15 minutes ago, Ben Gooding said:

I said if true, it very well could be. It just seems odd that Liberty, of all places, was one of their jet plane detours to check out IPF designs and athletic centers. Just a few months later, we're in a home n home series with them? That's my thread, and yes it is just a thread, to pull on. It just seems odd. 

Or it could be that during the visit to look at the IPF, the topic came up and then picked up steam from there. I just prefer not to jump to conclusions and accuse people of impropriety without evidence.

[Ben Gooding]

37 minutes ago, forevereagle said:

Or it could be that during the visit to look at the IPF, the topic came up and then picked up steam from there. I just prefer not to jump to conclusions and accuse people of impropriety without evidence.

I get it. Then Wren needs to be more forthcoming on the negotiations of this contract. Someone needs to simply ask, "Why?". And he needs to simply give a solid reason outside of "maneuvering to the inside lane during rush hour to free up scheduling opportunities." If that is his probable answer, then the next simple question needs to be, "How?". Because without more detail into this, it's all speculation on everyone's part. We also need to know what happened to Army on those two dates. Surely we didn't manipulate the contract with Army to create this series. That would be a rotten cherry on top if we did. And at a place like UNT, it can't just be assumed they were the one's to ask for open dates. Wren Baker up to this point has been extremely transparent and open with all moves, goals, his vision, etc. Why all of sudden go silent on a horrible decision?  Is he trying to hide his pocket aces on a series he has worked up in 2032 & 2036? If so, I guess great. But it still begs the question, WHY LIBERTY? He needs to find a mic and speak to all of his constituents. Tonight seems like an opportunity to do exactly that. 

[UNTFan23]

What if signing Liberty opens the door to some well known (to UNT fans) upper echelon of G5 schools? Would people be OK with that? Liberty plus two "name" G5 schools to be named later?

[Aldo]

20 minutes ago, UNTFan23 said:

What if signing Liberty opens the door to some well known (to UNT fans) upper echelon of G5 schools? Would people be OK with that? Liberty plus two "name" G5 schools to be named later?

Hypothetical chicken or egg?

Baker already mentioned they're in the middle of more schedule changes. Could be that we were just hamstrung, you're right (whether or not that school was Liberty, or another "they play football?" school).

Like @Cerebus mentioned, deal could've been better for us. 

[GMG24]

23 hours ago, Mean Green 93-98 said:

There are so many teams that would provide such an opportunity that would be better than Liberty.  I liked playing the MAC schools, but we don't have any of those on our future schedules.  Tulane, Tulsa, or even A-State or one of our other old Belt-mates would provide a little geographic relevance and a competitive series.  Liberty just screams "small-time."

Honest question, you feel good about beating Tulsa/A-State?  We have to win and change the culture and perception.  I get it Liberty doesn't get me happy at all, but scheduling a team you can beat right now is in the best interest of the program.  Got to win to become relevant. No one remembers who you beat or when you beat them just that you finished

8-4 or 7-5 etc. Hopefully 9-3 10-2 

[Mean Green 93-98]

4 minutes ago, GMG24 said:

Honest question, you feel good about beating Tulsa/A-State?  We have to win and change the culture and perception.  I get it Liberty doesn't get me happy at all, but scheduling a team you can beat right now is in the best interest of the program.  Got to win to become relevant. No one remembers who you beat or when you beat them just that you finished

8-4 or 7-5 etc. Hopefully 9-3 10-2 

While far from sure wins, I think we should expect to be competitive with either of those particular teams you mentioned.  It's not as though there is no possibility whatsoever we could lose to Liberty.  If a likely win is all that matters to you, there are still numerous better options--go for the lower half of the MAC or Belt.  

[Censored by Laurie]

39 minutes ago, Aldo said:

Hypothetical chicken or egg?

this is already too much science for Liberty. 

Edited May 9, 2017 by Censored by Laurie

[Aldo]

4 minutes ago, Censored by Laurie said:

this already too much science for Liberty. 

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

19 hours ago, Ben Gooding said:

I said if true, it very well could be. It just seems odd that Liberty, of all places, was one of their jet plane detours to check out IPF designs and athletic centers. Just a few months later, we're in a home n home series with them? That's my thread, and yes it is just a thread, to pull on. It just seems odd. 

Funny how 2 posts turn political of 6 pages worth of football and scheduling talk and it gets thrown to the Eagle Nest. Out of sight, out of mind does not work. This doodoo series is not going anywhere, unfortunately. 

I discussed that, too, during the IPF threads.  It didn't make sense to me that they would fly up to Liberty when there were several regional schools of all sizes they could have visited instead.  Seemed like a waste of time...and, money.

However, we can now logically surmise that Baker likely used the trip to hammer out details of a home and home football series...only, he's the one that got hammered. 

Liberty's AD is former Baylor AD Ian McCaw, who is far more experienced (and conniving) than Baker.  Here, McCaw used Baker's inexperience to his - and, Liberty's - advantage.  Getting not only a home and home, but the front end of it, McCaw was absolutely schooling Baker in the fine art of college football scheduling.

[Ben Gooding]

19 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

I discussed that, too, during the IPF threads.  It didn't make sense to me that they would fly up to Liberty when there were several regional schools of all sizes they could have visited instead.  Seemed like a waste of time...and, money.

However, we can now logically surmise that Baker likely used the trip to hammer out details of a home and home football series...only, he's the one that got hammered. 

Liberty's AD is former Baylor AD Ian McCaw, who is far more experienced (and conniving) than Baker.  Here, McCaw used Baker's inexperience to his - and, Liberty's - advantage.  Getting not only a home and home, but the front end of it, McCaw was absolutely schooling Baker in the fine art of college football scheduling.

Well, yeah. That's why I'm dumbfounded by all of it. But to be honest, I don't know if I'm even more dumbfounded by most people's nonchalant response of the announcement. But, this is UNT fans we're talking about. I say that not to put us in a negative light. But we're an abused and manipulated fan base. We're use to this type BS. Takes some serious mental fortitude to be a UNT homer. 

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

24 minutes ago, Ben Gooding said:

Well, yeah. That's why I'm dumbfounded by all of it. But to be honest, I don't know if I'm even more dumbfounded by most people's nonchalant response of the announcement. But, this is UNT fans we're talking about. I say that not to put us in a negative light. But we're an abused and manipulated fan base. We're use to this type BS. Takes some serious mental fortitude to be a UNT homer. 

I don't think people have been nonchalant about it.  I think the feel of the thread is that most of us are surprised and disappointed by it.  The Tech get and RV's Memphis get last spring take away a little of the sting; but, few here have been nonchalant, clearly stating their disapproval.

[Ben Gooding]

3 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

I don't think people have been nonchalant about it.  I think the feel of the thread is that most of us are surprised and disappointed by it.  The Tech get and RV's Memphis get last spring take away a little of the sting; but, few here have been nonchalant, clearly stating their disapproval.

I've been reading a lot of it's just one game and it's something we need, etc. Just self assuring babble. 1n1 with Liberty is legitimately laughable. I mean it's done. The deal is in place. If there is a non financial way out of it, I'd try to get out. It still begs the question why Liberty. We still haven't heard a reasonable answer. I call it elbow rubbing, no other reasonable explanation in my mind. If so, somebody should be damn ashamed. If not, let's hear it AD. 

[FirefightnRick]

I gotta give it to them, they have an I mpressive commencement schedule for such a little school.

 

Rick

Edited May 12, 2017 by FirefightnRick