Can Benford ever recover from this past year?

[emmitt01]

Damn. Will I ever recover? With morons like you on board, Coach K would have been kicked to the curb after any of those seasons. Of course, this is coming from someone that would arrest you and haul you downtown should you ever consider criticizing him for his work. I can imagine getting pulled over by emmitt and responding in the nature that you yell from the stands at Benford. I mean, how dare we question an officer's performance to his face at the time of an alleged infraction, right?

Thank you CMJ for clarifying. I honestly didn't look up his record but knew that he struggled early on.

Nah. I...now pay attention because I may use a big word or two...WELCOME criticism of my work product. This is why I excel at what I do. My superiors don't believe I deserve a four year plan to get it right. Arresting a peon like you for simply being mouthy would result in (deserved) reprisal. You see, some of us excel at what we do and don't count on an apologist here or there to prop us up. And, please, tell me what I've ever yelled at Benford. I harass the opposing bench mercilessly, never denied that, but what pray tell have you heard me yell at the OTHER end of the court? Might this be yet another example (like the Coach K argument) where you spouted off without doing your homework first? It's cool, I've come to expect nothing less.

And chances are I'd never pull you over anyway. Supervisory personnel don't often make traffic stops.

Edited April 6, 2013 by emmitt01

[UNT90]

Actually that info was passed onto me by a Duke grad at the time. He said that those seasons people were calling for coach K to be fired. It was just as stupid then as it was now. It is not matter no one takes use serious... we have fans like you. Of course I suppose that is why they are duke and we are UNT.

As usual, you completely miss the point.

[UNTLifer]

Nah. I...now pay attention because I may use a big word or two...WELCOME criticism of my work product. This is why I excel at what I do. My superiors don't believe I deserve a four year plan to get it right. Arresting a peon like you for simply being mouthy would result in (deserved) reprisal. You see, some of us excel at what we do and don't count on an apologist here or there to prop us up. And, please, tell me what I've ever yelled at Benford. I harass the opposing bench mercilessly, never denied that, but what pray tell have you heard me yell at the OTHER end of the court? Might this be yet another example (like the Coach K argument) where you spouted off without doing your homework first? It's cool, I've come to expect nothing less.

And chances are I'd never pull you over anyway. Supervisory personnel don't often make traffic stops.

You win. You are clearly superior, officer. Oh, and thanks for the reminder about your success at DPD. You never fail to remind us or let an opportunity pass to be condescending. I won't ask because I am sure you were without error in your first year on the force.

[emmitt01]

You win. You are clearly superior, officer. Oh, and thanks for the reminder about your success at DPD. You never fail to remind us or let an opportunity pass to be condescending. I won't ask because I am sure you were without error in your first year on the force.

Far from it. If you have about five hours I could tell you lots of stories about gaffes I've made.

But I've never torn down progress made by a predecessor. Never been held to a standard of "don't worry, multiple years on the force are guaranteed".

That's the difference.

[JesseMartin]

I'm going to take a bit of a weird direction here (big surprise, right?). If we do play Arizona State this coming season, a win or at least a close game would help tremendously in bringing some remote alumni back into the fold. If we could get even a couple dozen retired UNT alums in AZ connected to UNT again, that's a moderate boost. If we continue to do so everywhere we go, support in terms of spirit, finances, and every other area could lead to the "slow burn" necessary to finally get us where we need to be.

Sometimes, taking a step back to remember that the aggregate (in this case, overall wins/season performance) is built from individual days, moments, and events. Such is the same with our personal involvement...we may have greater heights yet to be achieved, but as we bring excitement back to those who may have forgotten it, each person who develops a renewed sense of commitment will strengthen our capacity to yield these results.

I'm freaking excited. No matter what happens with Benford, no matter how far out of our control it may be or seem, there are still things we can do; work can yet be done in those areas we can control. Wins and a great coach certainly make it easier to elicit a response, but creative team-building can accomplish just as much in the short term, with greater sense of loyalty and belonging in the long-term.

To a point, this hearkens back to the "What Can You Do For The Mean Green" thread from a couple of days ago. As much as we all want wins and good coaching, what can we do in the interim to strengthen our program regardless of that which we can't control? Even if we could benefit from more transparency from the admin and the AD (and I agree with Emmitt, we certainly could), let's find new ways to re-create our own intertwined destinies as much as possible.

Whether your feelings are optimistic or not, try a checklist with sub-parameters. Think of as many areas as possible where change, advancement, etc. are necessary, as well as types of responses that could be useful. Think of as many as possible before ruling anything out. Then, when your ideas are momentarily exhausted, go over everything and circle the areas where you don't need "administrative approval" to get something done. For every circled idea, consider any way you can organize - alone, or with others - to accomplish portions of each goal. Then, talk to friends and start a thread on here relative to each method of goal-attainment you've thought of. Some may leave you trying on your own, others may garner considerable support, but any of them may give a bit of a boost necessary to push things forward a little bit.

With just a few ideas working out, we could change...well, everything.

[Andrew]

Where has Jesse "common sense" Martin been all season? All we had was detractors and whiney alumni all season. I enjoy your posts Jesse (though sometimes a bit long). Keep them up!

[Rudy]

Yay for off season.

[untjim1995]

I doubt we will see any improvement at all over Benford's next 2-3 years--he has that much time, people, whether we want him gone or not. But, if he got us back to competing for a CUSA title or got us to the NIT or the NCAA tournament, he would be back in full graces with almost everyone, even if he led the biggest waste of talent at this place in any sport, ever.

Look, this guy is most likely the newer version of Vic Trilli. Trilli got 4 years to prove how bad of a coach he truly was, just like Benford will probably get. You will start seeing a mass exodus of the talented recruits we had over the next few years and we will see us barely beating teams like Alabama-Huntsville (which I guess would be "improvement", sadly). Just like Trilli's teams could barely beat some of the dregs of college hoops in his last year (seems like we barely beat either Tarleton State or ACU at home in his last year, IIRC), that's what i expect to happen in 2-3 years from now.

I have no hope whatsoever that this will improve at all. If it does, I'll be the first to say I was wrong, but I just don't see it happening. Recruiting is ruined, as is attendance. Nothing we can do about it now, but just accept it. Absolutely nothing that can be done about RV's mistake now.

[MeanGreenTexan]

Once again, another thread descends into chaos, UNT bashing, and personal attacks.

So back to the original question.

20 wins doesn't mean jack. We won 20 several years in a row and it never got us to the post-season without a conference championship.

I want post-season success. How do I define that?

Madison Square Garden appearance in NIT.

or

Making to the NCAAs and not getting embarrassed. We get there through virtue of an outstanding regular season (ie. MUTS) or a conference tournament win.

Then, and only then, will the forgiving start.

This is bull-honkey.

Consistent 20-win seasons means that you have built a proven winner. This means the world to a school like UNT, where we are not yet a household name (even in our own state). So when you show you can consistently win (regardless of postseason success, which, I don't think you understand how hard it is to win to the level you specified), this will bring the attention of 4* & 5* recruits who will eventually land in our program, THEN you start talking about winning in the postseason on ANY level, then you start talking about winning to the level you're specifying.

See what happened at UNT during the mid-2000's to 2011. We landed Tony Mitchell! He was going to take us to new heights, and there's no doubt he would have, but...

I'd be fine with Benford proving he can win 20 games per year. Unfortunately, I think he'll probably lose more games next season than he did this season. And that is unacceptable with this team.

[CMJ]

We had something like five straight years of 20 wins seasons, and seven straight with a .500 or better mark. I'm proud of that because it's the longest sustained run of success we have ever had. Would I be as proud without 2 NCAA tournament appearances? No, but I'd still be pretty dang proud. If you look at the entire history of our basketball program - it is not a pretty sight.

[Army of Dad]

I doubt we will see any improvement at all over Benford's next 2-3 years--he has that much time, people, whether we want him gone or not. But, if he got us back to competing for a CUSA title or got us to the NIT or the NCAA tournament, he would be back in full graces with almost everyone, even if he led the biggest waste of talent at this place in any sport, ever.

Look, this guy is most likely the newer version of Vic Trilli. Trilli got 4 years to prove how bad of a coach he truly was, just like Benford will probably get. You will start seeing a mass exodus of the talented recruits we had over the next few years and we will see us barely beating teams like Alabama-Huntsville (which I guess would be "improvement", sadly). Just like Trilli's teams could barely beat some of the dregs of college hoops in his last year (seems like we barely beat either Tarleton State or ACU at home in his last year, IIRC), that's what i expect to happen in 2-3 years from now.

I have no hope whatsoever that this will improve at all. If it does, I'll be the first to say I was wrong, but I just don't see it happening. Recruiting is ruined, as is attendance. Nothing we can do about it now, but just accept it. Absolutely nothing that can be done about RV's mistake now.

Well as long as we get baseball we can just have fans and season ticket holders switch sports, right?

[MeanGreenTexan]

Would you all have been so proud of those 20-win seasons without the 2 NCAA appearances? I certainly don't think they would have meant very much without the conference tournament titles. Let us not forget that most of those years the conference regular season record itself was less than amazing. To me at least, it was the NCAAs that really counted.

No, I wouldn't. But we had to start somewhere. And once JJ proved we could win 20/yr with guys like Quincy, Keith, & Calvin, then guys like Josh, Tristan, George, Eric, Jordan, Chris, & Tony saw that they could come here and make a difference.

Although we still have some remnants of those 20 win teams (and I'm sure TJ came here because he thought Benford could keep it going), I'm afraid we're about to lose all of that momentum that those guys created.

If Benford can get us back on track next year (I think it's fair to demand a winning record before we start wanting 20-wins), then maybe the healing process can begin. I just dont see it happening.

[TheTastyGreek]

Would you all have been so proud of those 20-win seasons without the 2 NCAA appearances? I certainly don't think they would have meant very much without the conference tournament titles. Let us not forget that most of those years the conference regular season record itself was less than amazing. To me at least, it was the NCAAs that really counted.

I'm still proud that we had a streak of 20+ win season only exceeded by half a dozen non-BCS programs. Very proud.

We won two tournaments, came within 5 and 60 seconds of winning two others, and won a regular season title. And we won consistently at a high level, surpassed in duration only by schools like Memphis, Gonzaga, Utah State, BYU, and San Diego State.

Not bad for a 6 year run. You can keep trying to shit on it if you want, but we did something pretty exceptional for a good run of time. I wish it had been more, but that doesn't mean I'm not proud of what it was.

Especially building it from almost zero history of success... If we won 8 games 6 years in a row and won two bowl games, I'd say that's a pretty big deal, too. And I don't think that's anywhere near what we did from 2007-2012 in basketball.

[Green P1]

Call me crazy... But in my UNT fan head:

Getting to conference tournament championship game = getting to low level bowl game

Winning conference tournament championship game = winning low level bowl game

First round tournament game (non play in bulsh)= playing in late December bowl game

Winning first round tournament game = SUPERBOWL

Edited April 9, 2013 by Green P1

[ntmeangreen11]

I have it on good authority we're going to sign some impacts players a week or so from now. I'm talking ballers, I'm talking 6'5 power forwards with 34" wingspans and shooting guards who shoot at a 24% clip. There is no need to worry, GMG!!!!!!

[MeanGreenTexan]

I have it on good authority we're going to sign some impacts players a week or so from now. I'm talking ballers, I'm talking 6'5 power forwards with 34" wingspans and shooting guards who shoot at a 24% clip. There is no need to worry, GMG!!!!!!

We're signing a velociraptor?

[TheTastyGreek]

We're signing a velociraptor?

Fixed.

[TheTastyGreek]

We're signing a velociraptor?

We've always been big on raising better hunters and foragers at North Texas.

[MeanGreenTexan]

We've always been big on raising better hunters and foragers at North Texas.

Who's gonna eat your babies??

[TheTastyGreek]

Who's gonna eat your babies??

You win the thread.

[CMJ]

Since we don't have much in the way of good history in basketball, I tend to view our success through different lenses. If we had sustained tournament appearances and/or wins then 20 win seasons wouldn't mean that much to us. But if you look at our past, we mostly have mediocre to dismal results. I know it's easier to win 20 games now than it was back 30+ years ago but even counting that....the last stretch that I found where we finished .500 or better four years in a row was 1951-1954.

Think about that....we're not talking even moderate levels of success. We had some good seasons here and there (Spika's 1969-70 team was probably incredibly stout), but nothing sustained. That's what makes JJ's run of 20 win seasons impressive.

[TheTastyGreek]

If all you respect is NCAA tournament wins, then there's nothing to talk about. I don't think that's a valid way to evaluate a program playing in a conference as low in the pecking order as ours is. And, obviously, we don't have any yet.

If you're claiming to be realistic, be realistic about where we are as a program relative to the schools you seem to want to see us competing on a level against. And look at where those same programs were when they were at our stage of development under JJ.

It's a little unfair to diminish our development over playing openers, holiday games, and schedule fillers against no-names and non-D1s while pointing at schools like Gonzaga beating ranked teams. Gonzaga under Dan Fitzgerald feasted on a steady diet of Western Montana, Eastern Oregon, Whitman, Warner Pacific, Western Pacific, St. Martin's, Carroll, Idaho State, Whitworth, Lewis-Clark State, Central Washington, Montana Tech, Alaska-Pacific... AND Houston Baptist, SWAC schools, UT-Arlington, Sam Houston State, and others you're specifically pointing at as meaningless wins.

Gonzaga under their Johnny Jones played THE SAME SCHOOLS. Or worse! Then Monson comes in, and he steps up their scheduling. Whitman, St. Martin's, Eastern Washington, Concordia, Chicago State, UALR, South Alabama, and UT-Pan American. 2 years later, Monson is gone and Mark Few takes over. He knocks the cream puffs off the schedule entirely. Few only plays powerhouses like UT-Pan Am, Eastern Washington, Montana, Monmouth, Northwest College, Prairie View, Eastern Oregon, Arkansas Pine-Bluff... By Few's 4th year, Gonzaga had been to 4 straight tournaments, including an Elite Eight and 2 other Sweet Sixteens. And he was still padding the schedule with Eastern Washington and a Hofstra team fresh off a 20 loss season.

When Steve Fisher took over at San Diego State, they filled out their schedule with games against Riverside, High Point, Florida Atlantic, A&M-Corpus Christi, Norfolk State, Indiana-Purdue Fort Wayne (not to be mistaken for relative powerhouse IUPUI), Troy, Monmouth, Point Loma Nazzarene, Maryland-Baltimore County, Seattle-Pacific, Campbell, and, obviously, Eastern Washington. Ten years into his tenure, they were still scheduling games against Pomona-Pitzer.

Utah State under Stew Morrill? Simon Frasier, Whitworth, Western State, Montana Tech, Colorado-Colorado Springs, Idaho State, Riverside, Centenary, Whitman, Hawaii-Hilo, Arkansas State, Fort Lewis College, Indiana-Purdue Fort Wayne, Lewis & Clark College, UALR, Middle Tennessee, Montana-Western, Southern Utah, and some SWAC fun. This year? Non conference games against Western Oregon, A&M-Corpus, Utah Valley, and Idaho State.

All those programs were built the same way JJ was building us. And nobody thinks Gonzaga sucks because they pulled themselves up by racking up a few wins a year against SWAC schools, no-names, and sub-D1s. That was what they did to get themselves to where they are today. The difference between JJ and Dan Fitzgerald is that Johnny could win conference tournaments.

Every year, every major class of recruits, we were inching and clawing our way up. What we did is HARD TO DO, and very rare. What we did here could have been the foundation for a real, sustained basketball program. Something on par with those other schools who you seem to be comparing us to in minimizing what we did accomplish.

Wins over ranked teams... I mentioned 5 teams by name. Between us making the tournament in 2007 and JJ leaving after 2012, can you guess how many road wins (the only type of games we've had the opportunity to play) they had against ranked teams?

Gonzaga had one in 2008-09 in overtime against #25 Tennessee.

Memphis won one in 2009... At Gonzaga.

Utah State won one in 2011 against #23 St. Mary's.

BYU won one in 2011... At San Diego State.

San Diego State won one in 2011 at #23 Arizona, another at Gonzaga in 2010.

If you take away the games they played against each other, those five programs combined for a grand total of three road wins against top 25 teams in five years: against Arizona, Tennessee, and St. Mary's. None ranked higher than 23rd. Our games against ranked teams over that period? Versus #6 Kansas, #18 Texas A&M, and #5 Texas.

Here's what I know: In almost 100 years, we never had a run like what we did here for 6 years in a row. In almost 100 years, we had one NCAA tournament appearance. JJ got us two, and tantalizingly close to two others.

JJ was recreating the road map for a long-term strong basketball program. And he was doing it in a conference that (other than WKU, occasionally USA, and ULL when they have the resources to cheat) treats basketball like a freaking joke. Not the Mountain West, or the WAC of the late 90's, or the WCC where everyone pours all their resources into basketball.

The fact that he didn't get us 15 years down that path in 10 years isn't a valid criticism, in my opinion.

[emmitt01]

I sent you my response in a PM because I am tired of explaining my point (that you have clearly missed).

Good night, sir.

Oh, you had one?

Hmmm

[Green P1]

Oh, you had one?

Hmmm

I think his point was he's not satisfied with any level of success North Texas has ever achieved? Outside of golf a long ass time ago maybe?

[Rudy]

We're signing a velociraptor?

MeanGreenTexas FTW!

As to whether or not Benford can recover? Well we had a saying in the academy...

Anything is POSSIBLE, but not probable.