Home-home series w/ Liberty

[Ben Gooding]

1 hour ago, outoftown said:

I wouldn't mind it in that case. But it appears the Arkansas game is still on the schedule, while the army game got ditched (and no communication about that happening either).

I really hope that is not true. If it were true, I would not see why we are doing this at all. How does it improve anything if we don't at least get money out of it?

We already had that on thee schedule. The aarmy game ticked all those boxes, and was versus an opponent that people like.

Too much reason. 

[Side Show Joe]

After giving myself a few days to think about this announcement,.... I still believe this is a bad series for North Texas. We don't need "home and home" series with an FBS newbie. This series does nothing to improve our brand or reputation within the college football world.

Yes, I know the administration has said it is part of a larger scheduling plan that will make fans happy, but I don't see the logic in revealing this series without any positive news to go with it. Especially in the same week we learned the terrible news surrounding players and a coach from Benford's final season. Surely the powers that be can understand why some fans are shaking the heads. We need to hear a good announcement. (Ex: Home and Home with Oklahoma State)

Edited May 7, 2017 by Side Show Joe

[Harry]

9 minutes ago, Side Show Joe said:

After giving myself a few days to think about this announcement,.... I still believe this is a bad series for North Texas. We don't need "home and home" series with an FBS newbie. This series does nothing to improve our brand or reputation within the college football world.

Yes, I know the administration has said it is part of a larger scheduling plan that will make fans happy, but I don't see the logic in revealing this series without any positive news to go with it. Especially in the same week we learned the terrible news surrounding players and a coach from Benford's final season. Surely the powers that be can understand why some fans are shaking the heads. We need to hear a good announcement. (Ex: Home and Home with Oklahoma State)

Good take Joe.

[GMG24]

7 hours ago, Side Show Joe said:

After giving myself a few days to think about this announcement,.... I still believe this is a bad series for North Texas. We don't need "home and home" series with an FBS newbie. This series does nothing to improve our brand or reputation within the college football world.

Yes, I know the administration has said it is part of a larger scheduling plan that will make fans happy, but I don't see the logic in revealing this series without any positive news to go with it. Especially in the same week we learned the terrible news surrounding players and a coach from Benford's final season. Surely the powers that be can understand why some fans are shaking the heads. We need to hear a good announcement. (Ex: Home and Home with Oklahoma State)

Good news, home and home with an opportunity to win both? Instead of OSU where your chance to win either is much closer to Zero than it is Fifty percent. 

[VideoEagle]

The problem is announcing the first of what might be multiple scheduling moves before all the other moves happen. WB wrote in his tweet changing a FBS schedule is like moving across four lanes on 635 during rush hour. I remember reading about a single canceled game about a decade ago that forced over a dozen schedule changes to something like six or eight different schools. It is no where nearly as simple as school X has an opening in year Y. 

The problem is, we the fans don't know either what the actual challenges are nor what the actual options or schools involved are either. Was Army canceled or delayed to an as yet undetermined date. Did Army or NT as for the move?

This uncertainly is compounded by a distrust by the NT fans of the athletic department. Most fans don't have the delusional "a will not believe ANYTHING the school writes, says or does," but most of us are predisposed toward a "trust but verify" attitude. 

When you're negotiating contacts, you simply can't talk about how the negotiations are going without causing problems. There is a reason the leaks from when unions are negotiating with management always are done by the side wanting to slow or change the direction the negations are taking. WB is in a damned if you do or damned if you don't situation. I wouldn't have let the Liberty scheduling get out until more pieces were in place but I don't know if it got out intentionally. 

On a side note, I'm curious how the Liberty fans got an FOI request forced on a private institution. 

[letsgiveacheer]

15 minutes ago, VideoEagle said:

On a side note, I'm curious how the Liberty fans got an FOI request forced on a private institution. 

Here's the link that speaks to this. They say the contract was obtained via North Texas sources rather than Liberty.

 http://www.aseaofred.com/flames-schedule-football-series-with-north-texas/

As someone said earlier, I suspect WB is friends with someone at Liberty and the deal was sealed during lunch at Lynchburg's fine dining establishment, Olive Garden...where one can get all the salad, breadsticks, and soup you want for $6.99.

[MeanGreen_MBA]

scheduling a h-and-h with an up and comers is ridiculous....good thing we didn't do the with Boise State when we were on even footing with them.....DOH!!!!!  Liberty is spending money like crazy to build a sports program.  This may turn-out to be something in the long run.  I say lets see what plays out before stringing WB up.  He has done pretty good by us so far, despite all the early howling about him.....

#GIVEWRENACHANCE

[oldguystudent]

1 hour ago, letsgiveacheer said:

Olive Garden...where one can get all the salad, breadsticks, and soup you want for $6.99.

I remain bitter that in Lewisville between 121 and 3040, due to construction on 35E, virtually every retail and dining establishment was viciously demolished -- except that damn Olive Garden.  That thing is going to be around when the apes take over. 

[Cerebus]

Let me clarify my position.  

• Playing G5 teams and lower end P5 teams is exactly what we need to schedule.
• While I would never support being in a conference with Liberty, I don't have a problem scheduling them.

What I have a problem with is that we seem to have struck a bad deal.

We had tremendous leverage over Liberty.  They are desperate to get 3 FBS home games in 2018.   If they don't they fail the process to move to FBS.   If they desperately needed a home game in 2018, why did we just demand one home game as a return in 2021, with no payout to us, and a neutral guarantee?  

People are saying that this is 4 dimensional chess is being played here, and that we don't understand all the moves, and that it will all make sense when future moves are made. Maybe that is true, but it still makes no sense to leave so much leverage on the table.   Even if there are other moves coming in the future this move does look like a good deal.

We had real leverage.  Why didn't we get a 2 for 1?  Why didn't we get a cash payout?  Why didn't they have to agree to an increased ticket allotment here that they had to fund 100%?  Why didn't we at the very least have a large payout to us if they decide to not return the trip in 2021?  

 

[UNTFan23]

1 hour ago, oldguystudent said:

I remain bitter that in Lewisville between 121 and 3040, due to construction on 35E, virtually every retail and dining establishment was viciously demolished -- except that damn Olive Garden.  That thing is going to be around when the apes take over. 

If you look at where the roads are now, the space needed to widened 35E to allow for on-ramps from 121 onto 35E NB. It will be glorious when those on-ramps (and the 35E SB off-ramps to 121) are completed. OG happened to be far enough to the north to not end up on the demolition list.

Edited May 8, 2017 by UNTFan23

[Ben Gooding]

5 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

Let me clarify my position.  

• Playing G5 teams and lower end P5 teams is exactly what we need to schedule.
• While I would never support being in a conference with Liberty, I don't have a problem scheduling them.

What I have a problem with is that we seem to have struck a bad deal.

We had tremendous leverage over Liberty.  They are desperate to get 3 FBS home games in 2018.   If they don't they fail the process to move to FBS.   If they desperately needed a home game in 2018, why did we just demand one home game as a return in 2021, with no payout to us, and a neutral guarantee?  

People are saying that this is 4 dimensional chess is being played here, and that we don't understand all the moves, and that it will all make sense when future moves are made. Maybe that is true, but it still makes no sense to leave so much leverage on the table.   Even if there are other moves coming in the future this move does look like a good deal.

We had real leverage.  Why didn't we get a 2 for 1?  Why didn't we get a cash payout?  Why didn't they have to agree to an increased ticket allotment here that they had to fund 100%?  Why didn't we at the very least have a large payout to us if they decide to not return the trip in 2021?  

 

An easy and fast answer to all of your questions...Because we're UNT. 

[UNTLifer]

On 5/6/2017 at 7:33 PM, Ryan Munthe said:

But I would complain about playing those. Especially Baylor.

I agree, but have a feeling you would be in the minority.

On 5/6/2017 at 6:09 PM, Cerebus said:

How is it hypocritical?  We aren't playing Penn St, Baylor or even Cal.  If we were and did not complain about them, then it would be hypocritical.

Something tells me the majority on here would not be upset with a home and home with any of those teams.  I am not a fan of Liberty, I think Falwell is a major problem with people's views on Christianity today, but this is just a game.  I mean, we play SMU and that school and it's history of athletic cheating is deplorable and nobody is screaming from the rooftops about that being morally wrong.

Back on topic, I am not a fan of dumping two Army games to play Liberty.  I love the Army series, although I really wish we had an Armed Forces series where we played Army a 1 for 1, then Air Force a 1 for 1, then Navy a 1 for 1 and then back to Army repeating continuously.

[Mean Green 93-98]

11 hours ago, GMG24 said:

Good news, home and home with an opportunity to win both? Instead of OSU where your chance to win either is much closer to Zero than it is Fifty percent. 

There are so many teams that would provide such an opportunity that would be better than Liberty.  I liked playing the MAC schools, but we don't have any of those on our future schedules.  Tulane, Tulsa, or even A-State or one of our other old Belt-mates would provide a little geographic relevance and a competitive series.  Liberty just screams "small-time."

[El Paso Eagle]

36 minutes ago, Ben Gooding said:

An easy and fast answer to all of your questions...Because we're UNT. 

As much as many want to deny it, we are not in a position at this time to make a lot of demands on any G5 school. Wren and company are in the early (and I mean very early) stages of building a foundation that will hopefully turn this program around. The truth is schools like Liberty and as much as I hate to say it UTSA, may have an easier road since they started with a clean slate (another example - I believe UAB discontinued football always planning on reinstating it, as a way to wipe the slate clean and start over.) 

I understand how anxious so many are for a quick turn-around, but let's give Wren the time and support to build the program.

 

 

[Cerebus]

36 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

  I am not a fan of Liberty, I think Falwell is a major problem with people's views on Christianity today, but this is just a game.

The schools religion isn't the reason I have a problem with Liberty.  The academic administrations decision to not give tenure so they can control all teaching by the faculty is a major problem for me.  It is more or less the cornerstone of western academics,

I thought ULM was a pretty poor academic school.  I thought Boise St was a train wreck.  But both of them are way, WAY ahead of Liberty.  

 

[UNTLifer]

22 hours ago, Cerebus said:

The schools religion isn't the reason I have a problem with Liberty.  The academic administrations decision to not give tenure so they can control all teaching by the faculty is a major problem for me.  It is more or less the cornerstone of western academics,

I thought ULM was a pretty poor academic school.  I thought Boise St was a train wreck.  But both of them are way, WAY ahead of Liberty.  

 

Honestly, Liberty U just isn't on my radar and I trust your judgement.  I also  think tenure has good and bad points, but that is for another discussion.  I also wasn't trying to imply that the reason people didn't like Liberty was religion based, but only that I am not a fan of their school (for no other reason than they never cross my mind) and that I don't like Jerry Falwell and his like because they are the vocal minority that many people equate with the Christian religion.  

After doing a little research, I would agree that their academics are a joke.

Edited May 9, 2017 by UNTLifer

[Cerebus]

1 minute ago, El Paso Eagle said:

As much as many want to deny it, we are not in a position at this time to make a lot of demands on any G5 school.

I don't think that is true.  Liberty HAS to have 3 homes games in 2018 or they lose provisional status and drop down to FCS.   Liberty has been trying for a year to get home and home series, and hasn't got anyone to bite yet.

We have a slot we could either turn into a 1-1, an P5 away game payout, or one home game buy.  The away game would have gotten us about $1.5M in todays market.  We got Idaho for $410K in 2013, and we could probably get a home game now for around $600k from a lower G5.  

Instead we didn't get ANYTHING extra from Liberty.  Who is over a barrel.   If they manage to get two more people to sign up for that same nothing I will still be disappointed.  If they get to other teams by having to give out more, I am going to be very disappointed.  

[UNTLifer]

I guess the biggest problem I have with this is the elimination, or delay, of better games with Army.

Edited May 9, 2017 by UNTLifer

[oldguystudent]

While I will continue to push for heavy recruiting and hiring of graduates from the UNT accounting program because they tend to come out hungry, hard working, lunch pail type accountants, in every other aspect, I swear to all things righteous and holy that if it involves marketing, branding, athletics, wheeling, dealing, stealing, operations, lacerations, or deciding once and for all on a single shade of green, I'm beginning to think that UNT is an acronym that somehow translates to "F it up" 

[Mean Green 93-98]

38 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

The schools religion isn't the reason I have a problem with Liberty.  The academic administrations decision to not give tenure so they can control all teaching by the faculty is a major problem for me.  It is more or less the cornerstone of western academics,

This is almost certainly a discussion for another forum; but since you brought it up, let me offer my profound disagreement.  Tenure only offers academic freedom to those who have already proved over time that they will toe a certain line.  Which means tenure doesn't really give professors academic freedom.  And certain professors with ulterior agendas have been allowed positions of influence for decades when they should have been fired.  Western higher education had reached excellence for centuries before the modern concept of tenure was implemented; and, interestingly enough, the decline of higher education roughly coincides with the implementation of modern tenure.

[Ben Gooding]

We can all dive into all of the intricacies of this series.  Wren knows someone at Liberty, that's as close to a guarantee as there is. If true, he put that relationship in front of the improvement of the program. To me, that is a major problem.  As for restructuring the schedule, how? How does this do that? What direct or indirect door does this move open for us, as a program trying to be on the up and up? It frees up nothing. It was babble talk to try and quieten the fan base. Anyone who justifies this are bend me over the bedrail apologists. 

2018 - SMU, IWU, @ARK,@Lib. 

2019 - Abilene, @SMU, Army,@ Wis.

2020 - SMU, @ATM, Hou Bap., @Army

2021 - Rhode Island, @SMU, Lib., @Mizzou

2022 - SMU, @Memphis

2023 - @SMU, Memphis

2024 - SMU, @TTech

2025 - @SMU

2026 - TBD

2027 - Texas Tech

So, please explain to me how this move frees anything up or moves anything around? I'll even entertain illogical ideas of how this creates flexibility. Our next 5 seasons are booked. Liberty has no connection with our OOC home games through 2021. As for the Texas Tech game he got on the schedule for 2027...Do you know what can happen between now and 2027? Anything that your brain can imagine. To call that locked in as a great success would be senile. 

I want to thank Rick V. for getting SMU and Army under contract. They are somehow our golden OOC home tickets for the foreseeable future. 

 

[Cerebus]

1 hour ago, Mean Green 93-98 said:

 Tenure only offers academic freedom to those who have already proved over time that they will toe a certain line.

Or people just toe the line and then behave how they want after the get tenure.  Seen it happen many times.  

These people are smart.  Give them a system and they will figure out how to game it pretty quickly.  

 

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

1 hour ago, UNTLifer said:

Honestly, Liberty U just isn't on my radar and I trust your judgement.  I also  think tenure has good and bad points, but that is for another discussion.

Precisely.  To me, it's like lifetime judicial appointments:  looks good on paper, bad idea overall. 

As far as Liberty University on the schedule, they do have a salty program that gives many schools fits and starts. But, they are not a program I ever envisioned for a home and home. 

In my mind, Liberty is on the same level as Lamar, Incarnate Word, Abilene Christian, etc.:  there is never any reason to have anything to do with them football-wise, unless it is to have them visit your school for a season opener.

I half-joked that I thought this thread was hilarious because so many people assume that scheduling is easy.  It's not.  I can wrap my mind around tricking Tech into a home and home.  The Liberty home and home, especially with the first game scheduled there, is a real puzzle.   

[Mean Green 93-98]

21 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

Or people just toe the line and then behave how they want after the get tenure.  Seen it happen many times.  

These people are smart.  Give them a system and they will figure out how to game it pretty quickly.  

I agree.  But I see that as a negative.

[Cerebus]

2 minutes ago, Mean Green 93-98 said:

I agree.  But I see that as a negative.

But that is the point of tenure, so that faculty is not under the control of administration.  Whether you like it or not is another argument.