Cowherd: "Screw Middle Tennessee State."

[HarringtonFishSmeller]

18 hours ago, Cr1028 said:

He does make a valid point. As much as I want to play with the big boys, realistically, we will never bring in the cash of UT or A&M, and neither will UH or Boise despite what they think. There are too many FBS schools at this point. They are eventually going to have to separate the P5 and G5 schools. I won't love our program any less if we are in some I-AA type league between P5s and FCS. They should've shut the door at 100 or less FBS programs, now we have 128 which is just way too many. I find it ridiculous that Texas brings in over $30 million in ticket sales alone and the players don't get one red cent.

Hmmm.  Let's play that out.  How much are the non-athlete students paid out of university funds?  For instance, let's take a trombone player at UNT, majoring in music.  Does trombone player get a cash cut of money raised by/donated to the music departments.

When I make a donation to the English department, does the school take that cash and give it to English majors?

No?

College athletes have a choice about where - and whether - they go to school.  They have expenses paid for that many other student have to borrow for, work for, and often times, both.  The football players are not required to play, they are offered an opportunity to play and get an education at the same time. 

So, cut the "the players don't get one red cent" baloney.  The players get plenty.  And, now a stipend on top of everything else.  If they want to keep staring the gift horse in the mouth, it will spell problems for schools our size.  The P5s will be semi-pro, and we will be an afterthought.

Here is the problem with the type of arguments you make as well, why the uber focus on football?  Ah...it must be that the other athletes - the swimmers, the soccer players, the golfers, the gymnasts, etc. - are using the academic part of their opportunity to earn degrees that have value in the business world.

I have a simple solution, then, for the poor, put-upon football players who are having 100% of the tuition, books, room and board paid for -  plus given a stipend:  require that they major in business, a science, or education. 

Such contrived "problems" with these football players...all the time.  And, supposedly, these are masculine people.  Please.  Go whine to the "normal" students taking out loans and working two jobs about having your tuition, books, room and board paid for, then getting a stipend on top of it.  Tell them how you're being screwed.  Ingrates.

   

Edited January 21, 2016 by HarringtonFishSmeller

[UNTGuy5]

For someone who has his own Sports Talk Radio show, he sure seems to hate sports.  

[Cr1028]

27 minutes ago, HarringtonFishSmeller said:

Hmmm.  Let's play that out.  How much are the non-athlete students paid out of university funds?  For instance, let's take a trombone player at UNT, majoring in music.  Does trombone player get a cash cut of money raised by/donated to the music departments.

When I make a donation to the English department, does the school take that cash and give it to English majors?

No?

College athletes have a choice about where - and whether - they go to school.  They have expenses paid for that many other student have to borrow for, work for, and often times, both.  The football players are not required to play, they are offered an opportunity to play and get an education at the same time. 

So, cut the "the players don't get one red cent" baloney.  The players get plenty.  And, now a stipend on top of everything else.  If they want to keep staring the gift horse in the mouth, it will spell problems for schools our size.  The P5s will be semi-pro, and we will be an afterthought.

Here is the problem with the type of arguments you make as well, why the uber focus on football?  Ah...it must be that the other athletes - the swimmers, the soccer players, the golfers, the gymnasts, etc. - are using the academic part of their opportunity to earn degrees that have value in the business world.

I have a simple solution, then, for the poor, put-upon football players who are having 100% of the tuition, books, room and board paid for -  plus given a stipend:  require that they major in business, a science, or education. 

Such contrived "problems" with these football players...all the time.  And, supposedly, these are masculine people.  Please.  Go whine to the "normal" students taking out loans and working two jobs about having your tuition, books, room and board paid for, then getting a stipend on top of it.  Tell them how you're being screwed.  Ingrates.

   

They don't bring in millions of dollars in the form of television contracts. The NCAA, P5 conferences, and top P5 schools are making exorbitantly high sums of money of theses players. People tune in to watch a Johnny Manziel-led A&M when they wouldn't for a Jerrod Johnson-led Aggie team. Players are the ones who are put on the posters.

 Players are the ones winning Heisman trophies that build the school's reputation and recruiting.

and players are the ones that carry the name of the school at the next level.

I am not saying that North Texas needs to start paying salaries to football players or drop football. What I am saying is that too many rich old dudes are raking in a boatload of cash off a workforce that is captive to a monopolistic system. If the NFL had a true minor league system like the MLB, it would be a fair system. A college baseball player cannot whine about the revenue a school, conference, or television network makes off of his talent because he had forgone (at least temporarily) his ability to make his own money off of his talent by not signing with a major league franchise. NCAA football players are strictly forbidden from profiting from their talent until they are 3 years removed from high school.

I'm not against players playing for their current scholarships. I am actually for it. I am against the ridiculous profiteering off of a workforce that cannot be paid for their skillset anywhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdc0u7fDwE8

 

[Ben Gooding]

They are "forbidden" for their own protection. Please keep that in mind. 

 

It's this simple...If players don't like the setup then piss off. I understand they may be frustrated, particularly the guys that are good college players but not good enough. Like a Will Wright for us. The bottom line to this is that it's a slippery slope of ice that has been waxed, marbled, and greased. Every FBS football player receives hundreds of thousands throughout their 4-6 year collegiate career via their scholarship. The NCAA is now permitting a stipend. Let's hammer the can closed and see how the new system unfolds. 

[MeanGreenTexan]

12 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

They don't bring in millions of dollars in the form of television contracts. The NCAA, P5 conferences, and top P5 schools are making exorbitantly high sums of money of theses players. People tune in to watch a Johnny Manziel-led A&M when they wouldn't for a Jerrod Johnson-led Aggie team. Players are the ones who are put on the posters.

 Players are the ones winning Heisman trophies that build the school's reputation and recruiting.

and players are the ones that carry the name of the school at the next level.

I am not saying that North Texas needs to start paying salaries to football players or drop football. What I am saying is that too many rich old dudes are raking in a boatload of cash off a workforce that is captive to a monopolistic system. If the NFL had a true minor league system like the MLB, it would be a fair system. A college baseball player cannot whine about the revenue a school, conference, or television network makes off of his talent because he had forgone (at least temporarily) his ability to make his own money off of his talent by not signing with a major league franchise. NCAA football players are strictly forbidden from profiting from their talent until they are 3 years removed from high school.

I'm not against players playing for their current scholarships. I am actually for it. I am against the ridiculous profiteering off of a workforce that cannot be paid for their skillset anywhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdc0u7fDwE8

 

But how does it work?  
Do all players get a flat fee (pretty much already implemented)?  Pay for performance?   Does Derek Henry get $100,000 because he won the Heisman, but his backup gets $10 because, well, he didn't play much?   
Just throwing the idea of it out there because X,Y,Z reasons...  that's fine, but how does it get implemented to be fair across the board?

[Withers940]

19 hours ago, Rudy said:

He's a prick.  

 

If you have to be rude, arrogant, and obnoxious to have a talk show, you need to hang up the microphone. 

That or shoot yourself in the face.....I kid

I do hate the SOB with a passion

[HarringtonFishSmeller]

25 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

They don't bring in millions of dollars in the form of television contracts. The NCAA, P5 conferences, and top P5 schools are making exorbitantly high sums of money of theses players. People tune in to watch a Johnny Manziel-led A&M when they wouldn't for a Jerrod Johnson-led Aggie team. Players are the ones who are put on the posters.

 Players are the ones winning Heisman trophies that build the school's reputation and recruiting.

and players are the ones that carry the name of the school at the next level.

I am not saying that North Texas needs to start paying salaries to football players or drop football. What I am saying is that too many rich old dudes are raking in a boatload of cash off a workforce that is captive to a monopolistic system. If the NFL had a true minor league system like the MLB, it would be a fair system. A college baseball player cannot whine about the revenue a school, conference, or television network makes off of his talent because he had forgone (at least temporarily) his ability to make his own money off of his talent by not signing with a major league franchise. NCAA football players are strictly forbidden from profiting from their talent until they are 3 years removed from high school.

I'm not against players playing for their current scholarships. I am actually for it. I am against the ridiculous profiteering off of a workforce that cannot be paid for their skillset anywhere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdc0u7fDwE8

 

It isn't the schools and NCAA that forbids players from going to the NFL, it's the NFLPA's rule.  And, who comprises the NFLPA?  Former college football players:

Article 6, Section 2 (b)
https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/collective-bargaining-agreement-2011-2020.pdf

So, direct your "college players are screwed" angst at the NFL players a.k.a. former college players.

Also, college players are not a workforce.  They are students who happen to be athletes, and were offered a scholarship to a school to continue playing their game for a few more seasons.  And, again, they voluntarily choose which offers to accept to play football.

And, again, only a handful of schools even make money on their athletic departments.  Many have to borrow from their schools in order to make ends meet.  So, what you are advocating would only be financially feasible for a few universities.  

At that point, then, football programs would be dropped.  And, so, where does that leave the high school player with his so-called "skill set" that the NCAA and colleges were "screwing" him for?  Well, for one, he'd have to apply for college with the rest of the students, and attempt to be accepted under the same standard they are instead of having the bar lowered for them.

So, what do you say?  For the sake of the richest schools, we eliminate dozens of programs and thousands of opportunities for a kid who might not otherwise be able to go to college for free and better their lives?

Oh...no, no, no, Harrington!  You've got it all wrong.  The vast majority of these players would easily be as motivated to apply for school as those "regular" students.  And, paying for it would be a breeze.

Give me a break.  These kids of football scholarship are getting the opportunity of a lifetime...and, some would piss it away so that the best of the athletes could be (openly) paid by the OUs, Texases, Alabamas, etc. of the college football world.

[Ben Gooding]

I say pay each and every one of them 50K a year. Right after acceptance standards are lifted to normal standards per regular students. 

[Aldo]

53 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

 

Honest question: are the promotional logos at the bottom of this poster a violation (if the kids in this pic are indeed the school's athletes)?

[97and03]

Oh come on, I say "screw the MUTS" all time. Where is my radio show?

[Cr1028]

3 hours ago, HarringtonFishSmeller said:

It isn't the schools and NCAA that forbids players from going to the NFL, it's the NFLPA's rule.  And, who comprises the NFLPA?  Former college football players:

Article 6, Section 2 (b)
https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/collective-bargaining-agreement-2011-2020.pdf

So, direct your "college players are screwed" angst at the NFL players a.k.a. former college players.

Perhaps you missed the preamble....

Quote

This Agreement, which is the product of bona fide, arm’s length collective bar-gaining, is made and entered into as of the 4th day of August, 2011 in accordance with the provisions of the National Labor Relations Act, as amended, by and between the National Football League Management Council ("Management Council" or "NFLMC"), which is recognized as the sole and exclusive bargaining representative of present and future employer member Clubs of the National Football League ("NFL" or "League"), and the National Football League Players Association ("NFLPA"),

It is to the NFL's benefit to have a cost-free development program known as the NCAA.

3 hours ago, HarringtonFishSmeller said:

Also, college players are not a workforce.  They are students who happen to be athletes, and were offered a scholarship to a school to continue playing their game for a few more seasons.  And, again, they voluntarily choose which offers to accept to play football.

Jadaveon Clowney would've been an 18 year old millionaire if he were allowed to enter the draft in high school. It is a farce to call a player like him a "student". The only reason he ever put on a Gamecocks jersey was to bide his time until eligible for the league. This was evident in his lack of effort while protecting his body in the last year of his college career.

 

3 hours ago, HarringtonFishSmeller said:

And, again, only a handful of schools even make money on their athletic departments.  Many have to borrow from their schools in order to make ends meet.  So, what you are advocating would only be financially feasible for a few universities.  

At that point, then, football programs would be dropped. And, so, where does that leave the high school player with his so-called "skill set" that the NCAA and colleges were "screwing" him for?  Well, for one, he'd have to apply for college with the rest of the students, and attempt to be accepted under the same standard they are instead of having the bar lowered for them.

I never said anyone should drop football. I believe the top programs, ESPN, NY6 bowls, and P5 conferences shouldn't be make these sums of cash if it is truly about amateur athletics or the "student-athlete". The top 30 programs or so should break off and have to do some production based revenue sharing with the players or the money should be poured into the academics of the university. It should not be used for inflating coaching salaries to stratospheric heights in the college football arms race. It shouldn't be used on 15 different uniform combinations or godzilla-trons.

3 hours ago, HarringtonFishSmeller said:

So, what do you say?  For the sake of the richest schools, we eliminate dozens of programs and thousands of opportunities for a kid who might not otherwise be able to go to college for free and better their lives?

Oh...no, no, no, Harrington!  You've got it all wrong.  The vast majority of these players would easily be as motivated to apply for school as those "regular" students.  And, paying for it would be a breeze.

Give me a break.  These kids of football scholarship are getting the opportunity of a lifetime...and, some would piss it away so that the best of the athletes could be (openly) paid by the OUs, Texases, Alabamas, etc. of the college football world.

Don't confuse "be able to go to college" and "want to go to college". Many of these players do not care one bit about getting a degree, they care about saying "I played college football" and trying to get to the NFL. That is the reason P5s have most of their players taking the same easy major that won't help them get a job after college. I don't see the benefit of lowering the admission standards to get someone in for athletic potential.

[jtm0097]

Collins Cowherd is a midmajor broadcaster. He needs to go away. 

Edited January 22, 2016 by jtm0097

[TheWestie]

6 hours ago, Aldo said:

Honest question: are the promotional logos at the bottom of this poster a violation (if the kids in this pic are indeed the school's athletes)?

No.

Those are sponsors/advertisers with the school. The contracts with Coke and Adidas are probably for terms far, far longer than any kid could be a college athlete. The institution has a contract not any individual athletes. It's not like all the UNT football players get free Ramey-King insurance for their cars. 

[ChristopherRyanWilkes]

6 hours ago, HarringtonFishSmeller said:

It isn't the schools and NCAA that forbids players from going to the NFL, it's the NFLPA's rule.  And, who comprises the NFLPA?  Former college football players:

Article 6, Section 2 (b)
https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/collective-bargaining-agreement-2011-2020.pdf

So, direct your "college players are screwed" angst at the NFL players a.k.a. former college players.

Also, college players are not a workforce.  They are students who happen to be athletes, and were offered a scholarship to a school to continue playing their game for a few more seasons.  And, again, they voluntarily choose which offers to accept to play football.

And, again, only a handful of schools even make money on their athletic departments.  Many have to borrow from their schools in order to make ends meet.  So, what you are advocating would only be financially feasible for a few universities.  

At that point, then, football programs would be dropped.  And, so, where does that leave the high school player with his so-called "skill set" that the NCAA and colleges were "screwing" him for?  Well, for one, he'd have to apply for college with the rest of the students, and attempt to be accepted under the same standard they are instead of having the bar lowered for them.

So, what do you say?  For the sake of the richest schools, we eliminate dozens of programs and thousands of opportunities for a kid who might not otherwise be able to go to college for free and better their lives?

Oh...no, no, no, Harrington!  You've got it all wrong.  The vast majority of these players would easily be as motivated to apply for school as those "regular" students.  And, paying for it would be a breeze.

Give me a break.  These kids of football scholarship are getting the opportunity of a lifetime...and, some would piss it away so that the best of the athletes could be (openly) paid by the OUs, Texases, Alabamas, etc. of the college football world.

So, if they are students who happen to be athletes, should we hold them to the same admission standards as all students at their particular school? Your other argument are fine, I just don't agree with them, but I don't see how anyone can say the majority of college football players (especially at P5s) are equal part student and athlete.

Edited January 22, 2016 by ChristopherRyanWilkes

[TIgreen01]

It is a shame that we still don't have a viable minor league football system outside of our universities.  Baseball, soccer and other sports have this model all figured out.  There is just too much money tied up in the NCAA football power structure to ever unwind, at this point barring some kind of forced legal action.

[HarringtonFishSmeller]

Jadaveon Clowney can't even play football AFTER a college career.  If he couldn't handle the rigors of the college and pro game, how do you think he would have handled it at 18 years old, straight out of high school?

This whole discussion is a joke.

[Cr1028]

14 minutes ago, HarringtonFishSmeller said:

Jadaveon Clowney can't even play football AFTER a college career.  If he couldn't handle the rigors of the college and pro game, how do you think he would have handled it at 18 years old, straight out of high school?

This whole discussion is a joke.

Whether he can or cannot play for the Texans has no effect on the argument. He'd have been paid at 18 years old based on his potential just like this guy I went to high school with.

[HarringtonFishSmeller]

44 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

Whether he can or cannot play for the Texans has no effect on the argument. He'd have been paid at 18 years old based on his potential just like this guy I went to high school with.

Yes, but again...how is that on the NCAA and universities?  It is the NFLPA that has made the three year rule, not the NCAA and universities.

Also, it is up to the NFL owners to decide whether they want a minor league.  Baseball is infinitely cheaper than football.  Less equipment, fewer players on each roster.  Crappier fields. 

Do you honestly think, based on the failure of so many other alternative football leagues that minor football would really be financially viable enough for owners to subsidize it?  I doubt it.  How many Arena League teams have come and gone just in the DFW area over the past two decades?

Do you go buy season tickets to the Frisco Roughriders to see guys who might someday play in the major leagues?  Based on the attendance at those games, very few people do.  

Look...just because you have a "skill set" doesn't mean someone owes you money for it.  I've played the guitar for 33 years and am very good at it.  But, does someone owe me a career or payment for it?  No.

If I want to make money at it, I've got to hustle for it myself.  Succeeding in music to the extent that you can make a living at it have extremely long odds.  I like food, shelter, and clothing, so I haven't chucked my life and moved to New York, Nashville, or LA to give it a go.

For kids coming out of high schools with the football "skill set," the place to hustle and make it is college.  But, no one requires them to do it.  They make the choice to do it. 

I fully understand that other sports' athlete have other venues where they can make money.  But, no one owes it to them either.  Football players choose football.  They know there is no minor league.  Unlike basketball and soccer, they can't go to many other countries and be pros.

That's just the way it is.

But, the whole "they're being screwed by the NCAA and universities" is patently false.  Their beef is with the entity that prevents them from becoming professionals right out of high school - the NFL Players' Association.  So, go beef with them and leave the NCAA and universities alone.

 

Edited January 22, 2016 by HarringtonFishSmeller

[Cr1028]

3 hours ago, HarringtonFishSmeller said:

Yes, but again...how is that on the NCAA and universities?  It is the NFLPA that has made the three year rule, not the NCAA and universities.

Also, it is up to the NFL owners to decide whether they want a minor league.  Baseball is infinitely cheaper than football.  Less equipment, fewer players on each roster.  Crappier fields. 

Do you honestly think, based on the failure of so many other alternative football leagues that minor football would really be financially viable enough for owners to subsidize it?  I doubt it.  How many Arena League teams have come and gone just in the DFW area over the past two decades?

The CBA is a shared document between the owners and NFLPA where both make adjustments. You can't point to the CBA and say the NFL players don't want college players but they probably don't because that is their completion. Why would I be excited about more people coming after my job? The NFL owners will never fund a minor league system because of the added cost. The NFL wins in cost savings and certain NCAA institutions, conferences, cable networks, and bowl committees win in large revenue made on the backs of a workforce that has no other outlet to make revenue off of doing the same work in a different company. I know there will never be a NFL minor league system because the NCAA IS the NFL minor league system only they don't have to pay the players, coaches, or fund the stadiums and equipment. The players(top players at big institutions, don't get it twisted) take the loss.

Quote

Do you go buy season tickets to the Frisco Roughriders to see guys who might someday play in the major leagues?  Based on the attendance at those games, very few people do.  

Look...just because you have a "skill set" doesn't mean someone owes you money for it.  I've played the guitar for 33 years and am very good at it.  But, does someone owe me a career or payment for it?  No.

If I want to make money at it, I've got to hustle for it myself.  Succeeding in music to the extent that you can make a living at it have extremely long odds.  I like food, shelter, and clothing, so I haven't chucked my life and moved to New York, Nashville, or LA to give it a go.

For kids coming out of high schools with the football "skill set," the place to hustle and make it is college.  But, no one requires them to do it.  They make the choice to do it. 

You can teach guitar, you can't teach size, speed, or arm strength.

Edited January 23, 2016 by Cr1028

[NT93]

4 hours ago, Cr1028 said:

You can teach guitar, you can't teach size, speed, or arm strength.

http://michaeljohnsonperformance.com/

Someone better tell Michael Johnson.

[Cr1028]

9 hours ago, NT93 said:

http://michaeljohnsonperformance.com/

Someone better tell Michael Johnson.

Yes, you can make slow people less slow and fast people faster.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqRTGxSGDNs

 

[GrandGreen]

I don't know why anyone wants to turn college sports into the pros without any thought of what most makes pro football fun.  I don't particularly like the NFL but the one thing that makes them interesting is that their rules build competitiveness.   Salary limits, drafts, etc. allow even the poorest of teams to win.

College football while getting closer to the Pro model in paying players, looking the other way when players transgress and reducing the number of teams, is going just the opposite direction in making games competitive.  The haves are slowly weeding out the have-nots and the difference between the premier programs and the others is continuing to widen. 

As far as asses like Cowherd, I am afraid they are eventually going to get what they are asking for and even they aren't going to like it.   A top level collegian division of 20 to 40 teams that will mirror the NFL, only won't be as good or as competitive and any allusion of amateur status will be gone.        

[VideoEagle]

On 1/23/2016 at 1:47 PM, GrandGreen said:

As far as asses like Cowherd, I am afraid they are eventually going to get what they are asking for and even they aren't going to like it.   A top level collegian division of 20 to 40 teams that will mirror the NFL, only won't be as good or as competitive and any allusion of amateur status will be gone.        

This is something I've thought for quite a while. What really happens when they turn the P5 schools into the NFL's farm league? Who really watches AAA baseball or the NBA D league. Yes, farm leagues have a very loyal audience, but it's much, much smaller than the current P5 audience. If you cut it to the top 50 or 60 schools, then only 25 or 30 of those are going to have winning records. That's a major reason I don't think the break away is going to be nearly as complete as some people believe. 

Edited January 25, 2016 by VideoEagle

[HarringtonFishSmeller]

45 minutes ago, VideoEagle said:

 

 

On 1/23/2016 at 6:38 PM, Cr1028 said:

The CBA is a shared document between the owners and NFLPA where both make adjustments. You can't point to the CBA and say the NFL players don't want college players but they probably don't because that is their completion. Why would I be excited about more people coming after my job? The NFL owners will never fund a minor league system because of the added cost. The NFL wins in cost savings and certain NCAA institutions, conferences, cable networks, and bowl committees win in large revenue made on the backs of a workforce that has no other outlet to make revenue off of doing the same work in a different company. I know there will never be a NFL minor league system because the NCAA IS the NFL minor league system only they don't have to pay the players, coaches, or fund the stadiums and equipment. The players(top players at big institutions, don't get it twisted) take the loss.

You can teach guitar, you can't teach size, speed, or arm strength.

Yes, I can say that the NFLPA doesn't want to remove the three year rule because they've had decades to do it and they haven't. 

And, as for guitar - having attempted to teach some people guitar, I can accurately report that many people are unable to learn it.  Music is like athletics:  you are either a natural at it, or you work your butt off to succeed at it.  Very few are the former, and even fewer of the later are willing to invest the time and discipline to do it.

Edited January 25, 2016 by HarringtonFishSmeller

[forevereagle]

23 minutes ago, HarringtonFishSmeller said:

 

Yes, I can say that the NFLPA doesn't want to remove the three year rule because they've had decades to do it and they haven't. 

And, as for guitar - having attempted to teach some people guitar, I can accurately report that many people are unable to learn it.  Music is like athletics:  you are either a natural at it, or you work your butt off to succeed at it.  Very few are the former, and even fewer of the later are willing to invest the time and discipline to do it.

Not that long ago, the rule did change. They moved it in 03 or 04 for Fitzgerald. They moved it from 3 playing years to 3 years in school. I doubt that they move it much more.