An Unthinkable Question

Smitty · October 5, 2008

I am firmly of the belief that when you hire a coach, that coach gets a minimum of four years, probably five, to prove himself. But I find myself wavering on that belief in the face of this unthinkable season.

I ask the following soberly and not in emotional reaction to the FIU game, but rather in light of what is transpiring this year and in concern over the possible long-term damage a season like this can do to a coach, young players, and this program as a whole:

If this team goes 0-12 and is not competitive in a single game, if this team is unable to be in a game beyond the second quarter even one time, are you forced to fire the head coach? Can you bring back a coach whose team, no matter how young, is blown out in 12 out of 12 games as UNT is on track to do? And if you are seriously talking about making changes to this staff, as has been discussed on this board, for the second year in a row, then doesn't that call into question the judgment of the coach who assembled that staff, and therefore don't you have to hold that coach responsible?

I can't believe I am bringing this up, but then I can't believe what is happening to this team.

meangreendork · October 5, 2008

I am firmly of the belief that when you hire a coach, that coach gets a minimum of four years, probably five, to prove himself. But I find myself wavering on that belief in the face of this unthinkable season.
I ask the following soberly and not in emotional reaction to the FIU game, but rather in light of what is transpiring this year and in concern over the possible long-term damage a season like this can do to a coach, young players, and this program as a whole:
If this team goes 0-12 and is not competitive in a single game, if this team is unable to be in a game beyond the second quarter even one time, are you forced to fire the head coach? Can you bring back a coach whose team, no matter how young, is blown out in 12 out of 12 games as UNT is on track to do? And if you are seriously talking about making changes to this staff, as has been discussed on this board, for the second year in a row, then doesn't that call into question the judgment of the coach who assembled that staff, and therefore don't you have to hold that coach responsible?
I can't believe I am bringing this up, but then I can't believe what is happening to this team.

See, there's a difference between 0-12 with close wins and 0-12 in all blowouts. If it's all blowouts, then yeah, Dodge may have to go. We keep DeLoach, but Dodge is out. Heck, we turn around and make DeLoach the new HC. I'd say he would have the experience.

I just can't see keeping someone if the performance is as bad as the FIU game was, and this happens all season. I just can't. A learning curve is one thing - as that's a curve with an upward slope at some point. I hope we're at the bottom end of that curve now.

CaribbeanGreen · October 5, 2008

It turns my stomach to admit so quickly that it is inarguably a valid question at least.

Things are unlike we -- or just about ANYONE -- has ever seen. And as I said in my other post, it's hard to look in the background, resume, or performance of this staff and have the slightest inkling they can turn this around without an element of delusion.

0-12 is unacceptable, but even that wouldn't normally warrant a firing in this case. Being noncompetitive, falling apart at the seams, shattering every conceivable record for futility, and blunder after humiliating blunder, however... that MUST STOP NOW for this era to continue.

We have to consider the fact that if you, I, Dexter Tennell, Mandy McKinley, Sean Johnson, or Bea Arthur had been given this job, we literally could not have done worse than this staff this season. That, amazingly, is just about fact.

We can't afford for this performance to continue. It would be unforgivable almost anywhere else in year two... why should our standards be lower??

I agree... it's unthinkable. Yet completely legitimate.

Edited October 5, 2008 by CaribbeanGreen

NT80 · October 5, 2008

As with the new stadium issue, I'm out of patience with the on-field performance too. Sometimes things just don't work out and at some point you have to cut your losses and go another direction. How worse could it be to start over again? Two more years to make adjustments? I see at least that here now, if not longer.

TIgreen01 · October 5, 2008

As with the new stadium issue, I'm out of patience with the on-field performance too. Sometimes things just don't work out and at some point you have to cut your losses and go another direction. How worse could it be to start over again? Two more years to make adjustments? I see at least that here now, if not longer.

Sadly, I agree with this. You don't want to Baylor yourself (and fire your coach ever 2-3 seasons), but this team is completely unresponsive to this coaching staff. At this point, barring a miracle, it appears that we're going to have to go out and get almost an entirely new crew of assistant coaches if we're going to turn this around anyways...

Zeke · October 5, 2008

We have to consider the fact that if you, I, Dexter Tennell, Mandy McKinley, Sean Johnson, or Bea Arthur had been given this job, we literally could not have done worse than this staff this season. That, amazingly, is just about fact.

Wow, a Dexter Tennell reference - that is a name I haven't discussed in a while.

houstonmeangreen · October 5, 2008

It turns my stomach to admit so quickly that it is inarguably a valid question at least.
Things are unlike we -- or just about ANYONE -- has ever seen. And as I said in my other post, it's hard to look in the background, resume, or performance of this staff and have the slightest inkling they can turn this around without an element of delusion.
0-12 is unacceptable, but even that wouldn't normally warrant a firing in this case. Being noncompetitive, falling apart at the seams, shattering every conceivable record for futility, and blunder after humiliating blunder, however... that MUST STOP NOW for this era to continue.
We have to consider the fact that if you, I, Dexter Tennell, Mandy McKinley, Sean Johnson, or Bea Arthur had been given this job, we literally could not have done worse than this staff this season. That, amazingly, is just about fact.
We can't afford for this performance to continue. It would be unforgivable almost anywhere else in year two... why should our standards be lower??
I agree... it's unthinkable. Yet completely legitimate.

I have seen NOTHING in a year and half....only excuses, pathetic play and a trendline pointing down with a hugh slope....and...the damn games are UNWATCHABLE...what more could you say....I don't like it but I think Dodge just has to go...2yrs of losses with DD, now 2 yrs with Dodge, the next thing you know we have 5-6 years of losses and pain and we have been the WORSE team in Div 1, not a bad team...THE WORSE....do we not have any pride....would any other couch make us worse?...any?....the answer is you can't get below the WORSE.

Anyway, its just sad..we should even be having this discussion......lets just build a stadium and tell RV how we feel and let him make whatever decisions he will make, but I think I am done for the season....no more games, just read the scores and post on board.

jimmyjames_99 · October 5, 2008

Its rough seeing us make FIU look good, but I will give Dodge his time 4-5yrs before I start thinking about calling for his head. However, it's not to early to start looking at his assistants.

yyz28 · October 5, 2008

I belive it is too early to ask for the Man's job. ...but it isn't too early to start asking for questions.

Most of the assistant coaches MUST go. The Special Teams coach should not have a job this morning. DeLoach (who's defense was the only semi-bright spot last night) should be given control over his defense AND his staff, 100%. Let him make the staffing decisions both for Special Teams AND Defense.

As bas as this is, I'm not prepared to give this 4-5 years. I think the number is 3. We are either saying to each other "glad we stuck this out" this time next year, or he's history.

SHOSS · October 5, 2008

as bad as this has been...and I don't think I've ever seen anything worse than this season... we should still only begin to watch w/l next year. if by the end of next season, we are still doing this... I'll be ready to go a different direction.

hickoryhouse · October 5, 2008

he gets this season to at leastmake it look like there is something to lok forward to next season. Last season we looked better than this...

If by the end of this season we don't have any more self respect as a football program than we do this morning, Dodge nees to be gone.

Thats hard to say for me because i loved this hire, and I stil think it is possible to work... but right now, I just don't think it is in the cards....

Green Dozer · October 5, 2008

It will have to be a miraculous turn around next year.

rcade · October 5, 2008

See, there's a difference between 0-12 with close wins and 0-12 in all blowouts.

Ouch. The fact we're debating whether some 0-12 seasons are worse than others is a sign of how bad things are.

Mad Hatter · October 5, 2008

I think he could go 0-12 this year, and he'd still get at least next year to see what he can do with almost all of "his" players. Going from Dickey to Dodge, this is about what I expected our first year to be like.......maybe they were just able to delay the inevitable last year.

Does anyone think that Deloach has made our defense worse? That's essentially been our problem the past 2 years. Last year it's easy to blame it on Mendoza coming up from High School. But now we've got Deloach. This is the guy that gave us Top 25 ranked defenses in our glory days. I think he can turn us around, but has to have some players. We haven't recruited a stud Defensive Lineman in about 5 years. All of the good ones, have ben marginal qualifiers that didn't pan out.

Smitty · October 5, 2008

I belive it is too early to ask for the Man's job. ...but it isn't too early to start asking for questions.
Most of the assistant coaches MUST go. The Special Teams coach should not have a job this morning. DeLoach (who's defense was the only semi-bright spot last night) should be given control over his defense AND his staff, 100%. Let him make the staffing decisions both for Special Teams AND Defense.
As bas as this is, I'm not prepared to give this 4-5 years. I think the number is 3. We are either saying to each other "glad we stuck this out" this time next year, or he's history.

But, if most of his staff must go, then can you not draw from that conclusion that Dodge did a poor job of assembling a staff? Doesn't that call his basic college football judgment into question, and can you trust him to assemble a new staff? After all, his one replacement hire was of DeLoach, a former UNT coach who was very successful. He got lucky on the timing, since a change was coming to UCLA and DeLoach was going to be available. That was a choice he knew was going to be very well received and would give him some breathing room. We have not seen Dodge do a real open job search to find a new coach.

If this staff is so bad (and I'm not arguing the point pro or con) then isn't that a scathing indictment of Todd Dodge? If he fires multiple assistants, then isn't it kind of saying "All of these guys I hired are bad, but I'm okay?"

wardly · October 5, 2008

either we did't realize how far down in the well we were, or t.d. is over his head. i think the former rather than the latter. a former head coach told the that t.d. will have little problem recruiting receivers/q.b.'s. the hard sell will be linemen/d.b.'s. look at how long it has taken texas tech to get a decent defense to complement its high powered offense. he has a 5 year contract. let's let it play out.

LongJim · October 5, 2008

Hang in, everyone.

Keep in mind that TD has (essentially) had 1.5 recruiting classes so far.

Keep in mind that there were lots of YOUNG, quality kids signed at the skill positions. MORE than ever signed at UNT in my memory.

Keep in mind that UNT needs to land another class or two, with PRIORITY being given to finding the beef.

Keep in mind regarding coaching, that TD did not stand pat on the defense last year, and this year's current defensive performance speaks to talent and depth. Special teams as well. Let's see if any changes are made after the season ends, or if the defense and ST's show signs of improvement as the year goes on.

Way too early to throw the towel in. Let's see what improves during the rest of the season. At the end of the year, let's all revisit this. Until then, hang in if you can.

Edited October 5, 2008 by LongJim

UNT Mean Green · October 5, 2008

Its rough seeing us make FIU look good, but I will give Dodge his time 4-5yrs before I start thinking about calling for his head. However, it's not to early to start looking at his assistants.

Agree 200%.

He has some wonderful assistant coaches but there are a few that need to be evaluated.

NT80 · October 5, 2008

How bad is it? Look at it this way: The FIU coach is also in his second year, now 3-14, and just beat our second year coach (again) 45-10. :ph34r:

emmitt01 · October 5, 2008

We have to consider the fact that if you, I, Dexter Tennell, ~~Mandy McKinley~~, Sean Johnson, or Bea Arthur had been given this job, we literally could not have done worse than this staff this season. That, amazingly, is just about fact.

Fixed it for ya.

FirefightnRick · October 5, 2008

as bad as this has been...

Hang in there. Last week I told y'all it could get worse before it gets better. And with this loss yesterday, it could actually get even worse. :ph34r:

See y'all next saturday.

Rick

Edited October 5, 2008 by FirefightnRick

GoMeanGreen1999 · October 5, 2008

I belive it is too early to ask for the Man's job. ...but it isn't too early to start asking for questions.
Most of the assistant coaches MUST go. The Special Teams coach should not have a job this morning. DeLoach (who's defense was the only semi-bright spot last night) should be given control over his defense AND his staff, 100%. Let him make the staffing decisions both for Special Teams AND Defense.
As bas as this is, I'm not prepared to give this 4-5 years. I think the number is 3. We are either saying to each other "glad we stuck this out" this time next year, or he's history.

Guys, give this up. Right now the Special Teams coach is going NOWHERE and there is a very good possibility he is not going anywhere after the season.

Hang in there. Last week I told y'all it could get worse before it gets better. And with this loss yesterday, it could actually get even worse.
See y'all next saturday.
Rick

It's going to get worse, and probably not even on the field.

bflan · October 5, 2008

You can give him his 4-5 years if you want...and maybe things will be better. At some point, when you are 0-12, and 0-12 or 1-11, and those years get stacked on top of each other, then what kind of credibility can you give Dodge? What athletes will come play for the man? The High School Glory days will be a distant memory, replaced with a UNT punchline. I don't want that. If things are "going to get worse before they get better", then how long can you tolerate the "worse days" of NT football?

The handful of Denton-ites I know that love and support NT football, none of whom read this board, have totally lost interest for now. AND THOSE are really the ones we can't afford to lose. Most people here will keep coming back (although even many are "done") , but it isn't enough! We need those whose interest has been battered and bruised.

You can say "to heck with those fair weather fans" if you are so inclined...but I would rather not. Especially if you want a stadium with people in the seats.

greenminer · October 5, 2008

Not agreeing or disagreeing, but why does this argument stop at the coach as if he is at the top?

Got5onIt · October 5, 2008

But, if most of his staff must go, then can you not draw from that conclusion that Dodge did a poor job of assembling a staff? Doesn't that call his basic college football judgment into question, and can you trust him to assemble a new staff? After all, his one replacement hire was of DeLoach, a former UNT coach who was very successful. He got lucky on the timing, since a change was coming to UCLA and DeLoach was going to be available. That was a choice he knew was going to be very well received and would give him some breathing room. We have not seen Dodge do a real open job search to find a new coach.
If this staff is so bad (and I'm not arguing the point pro or con) then isn't that a scathing indictment of Todd Dodge? If he fires multiple assistants, then isn't it kind of saying "All of these guys I hired are bad, but I'm okay?"

Agree with you 100%.

I'm just going to come out and say it. Dodge needs to be FIRED if this team does not win at least 2 games, PERIOD. Do you really think improvement next year is coming if this team does go 0-12? What, 1-11 in '09 is an improvement??? Rice KILLED us with an OPTION QB. That's right folks, their starting QB was recruited to head their option attack. Now look at how well he's playing under the spread system. Now that's coaching, something this team does not have at the top.

Many people say give him 2 more years. WHY??? A new coach can get the SAME or better results in those 2 years.

Edited October 5, 2008 by Got5onIt