What triggers a Seth Extension in your mind?

[El Paso Eagle]

8 minutes ago, NT80 said:

 

We must remember the majority of Seth's wins at NT have come against FCS teams and bottom half of CUSA every year.  His failure to compete against OOC G5s and upper level CUSA is very telling and not extension-worthy to this point.  Win the Conference, and make a statement in a Bowl against a Quality opponent, and then maybe we'll talk.

 

Agree, that most other schools would look at it that way. Seems the powers that be at North Texas still are not fully on the path of aiming for Football championships

[southsideguy]

The way he is smiling in the picture I think he has it.

[NorthTexasWeLove]

11 minutes ago, El Paso Eagle said:

Then you walk away. If Wren allows himself to be put in this situation maybe's he not what we need

[UNT Texas Hooligan]

37 minutes ago, meangreenfaninno said:

I am 100% behind Seth and very pleased with this run the team seems to be on.  That said, Wren has to look at the whole picture.  He did not hire Seth and he really needs a big FB hire to help his own job prospects. 
 

Additionally, and most importantly, Seth must - absolutely must have to answer for the sins of the past.  One example of this is the SMU game.  SMU is not good, yet Seth allowed them to ruin our attendance for the rest of the year by making them look like Alabama early in the season.  That one game hurt UNT in so many ways it is truly indescribable and Seth has to pay a price for it.  Seth should not be able to sweep  these lost opportunities under the rug and pretend like it didn’t happen.  Another example is his QB choices.  Jason Martin, JD Head, Grant Gunnell,  Kade Pearson, Armani Gilmore the list goes on forever.  Heck even Mason Fine had no other offers and Seth didn’t even recruit him it was Grant Harrell!

Austin "Kade" Renfrow, switched to WR at Ole Miss, now buried down the depth chart at Arkansas (not even 4th string from what I can see). The list goes on and it's not a good one. 

[Wag Tag]

4 hours ago, El Paso Eagle said:

I think this would probably drive a lot of fans away for good

Never understood what Seth’s contract has to do with being a fan! So if he wins out UNT will loose fans because of a new contract? What a bunch of negative Bull $hit!!

[Udomann]

I'm, obviously, voting under no circumstances.

We have a richly rewarded coach leading a mediocre team against a bunch of sh!tty teams.

I don't care how good that w/l looks on paper, it's not enough for the future. Crowds aren't going to look better while we sit at the bottom of AAC/CUSA 2.0. Looking to the future means not doubling down on where we are. For 2M a year I'm sure we can get a hell of a coach in to take us to another level.

Extending seth is just asking someone who you were ready to break up with on one last date only to be taken to mcdonalds. It's crappy and greasy, but it sure taste good in the moment.

Edited October 31, 2022 by Udomann

[El Paso Eagle]

Just now, Wag Tag said:

Never understood what Seth’s contract has to do with being a fan! So if he wins out UNT will loose fans because of a new contract? What a bunch of negative Bull $hit!!

Sherlock, it's called making move that turn fans away. How is attendance this year when we have a better record than at the same  time as last year? Take off your green glasses to look around and realize the vast majority of sports fans, and amumns, do not believe UNT cares about football and challenging for championships. We have 200K+ alumnus in the DFW area and cany put buts in the seats. Maybe when the University shows the fanbase it cares, they will. But go ahead and be a happy camper for #Hit6 in a crap conference. 

[MeanGreenGlory]

55 minutes ago, gordo nation said:

Here's the thing... UNT is still a group of 5 school. Hiring new head coaches at G5 schools is a VERY risky task that often times consists of luck. While Seth definitely hasn't performed at a level that really warrants a contract expansion, I am worried that firing Seth will set potentially set UNT back into 2015 levels of terrible. 

UNT is spending WAY too much on Seth in my opinion, but at the very least the man has kept UNT competitive for bowl game appearances every single year he has been at UNT. Judging from UNT's history, I really worry about flipping the switch on Littrell. 

Hiring a new coach is risky for every program. It's part of the game. Just look at the situation Auburn is in right now--they hired what appeared to be a "proven winner" and 1.5 years later spent $15M+ to buy out the contract and bring in someone new.

Why is it worth $15M for them to do that?

Because the cost of running a poor-performing program is higher than the $15M+ to buy out the coach.

They recognize opportunity cost. They recognize that if you have a poorly-performing program, all revenue tanks. 

What's interesting is UNT has such a long history of football mediocrity that running the average program we have today isn't much different than running a poorly performing program; the die-hard fans will show up and complain about not winning, but then still show up for a few more games throughout the season and complain some more until the next season. The difference in ticket sales, merchandise, concessions, donations, etc. likely isn't drastically different between the two types of seasons/programs at this point for UNT. As a result, there isn't a drastic amount of downside risk to brining in a new coach who performs the same as, or worse than, Seth.

However, if we were able to bring in a coach who legitimately built UNT's program up to its potential, ticket sales, merchandise, concessions, donations, etc. would all increase significantly. If that coach strung together a few great seasons and then got hired away, the program is in a better place which means the caliber of your next head coach increases which increases the opportunity to build on the momentum. This is how other schools like UH, UCF, Cincinnati, Boise State, etc. have climbed the ladder, and it's a realistic roadmap for UNT as well if the decision is made to pursue it.

With this, the upside potential is far greater than the downside risk for UNT right now.

What I find fascinating is that when McCarney was head coach, people on here would grumble that we would often "play to not lose" instead of "play to win." They're two different mentalities, and they bring different results.

As a program right now, it feels like if we keep Seth we're playing to "not lose" instead of playing to win.

I think it's time UNT plays to win.

[Wag Tag]

1 minute ago, El Paso Eagle said:

Sherlock, it's called making move that turn fans away. How is attendance this year when we have a better record than at the same  time as last year? Take off your green glasses to look around and realize the vast majority of sports fans, and amumns, do not believe UNT cares about football and challenging for championships. We have 200K+ alumnus in the DFW area and cany put buts in the seats. Maybe when the University shows the fanbase it cares, they will. But go ahead and be a happy camper for #Hit6 in a crap conference. 

Blah blah blah, keep digging on why not  support the team. So you would be a fan if he was making $800k? He wins out the support will come! All that matters is W-L! 

[El Paso Eagle]

1 minute ago, Wag Tag said:

Blah blah blah, keep digging on why not  support the team. So you would be a fan if he was making $800k? He wins out the support will come! All that matters is W-L! 

Blah, Blah, keep making excuses and support whatever is put out so you can show what a "Fan" is.  Do you think people outside a few care about wins against bottom dwelling FBS teams? Seth's record out of conference is terrible. At least Dickey won championships.

[untjim1995]

3 minutes ago, MeanGreenGlory said:

Hiring a new coach is risky for every program. It's part of the game. Just look at the situation Auburn is in right now--they hired what appeared to be a "proven winner" and 1.5 years later spent $15M+ to buy out the contract and bring in someone new.

Why is it worth $15M for them to do that?

Because the cost of running a poor-performing program is higher than the $15M+ to buy out the coach.

They recognize opportunity cost. They recognize that if you have a poorly-performing program, all revenue tanks. 

What's interesting is UNT has such a long history of football mediocrity that running the average program we have today isn't much different than running a poorly performing program; the die-hard fans will show up and complain about not winning, but then still show up for a few more games throughout the season and complain some more until the next season. The difference in ticket sales, merchandise, concessions, donations, etc. likely isn't drastically different between the two types of seasons/programs at this point for UNT. As a result, there isn't a drastic amount of downside risk to brining in a new coach who performs the same as, or worse than, Seth.

However, if we were able to bring in a coach who legitimately built UNT's program up to its potential, ticket sales, merchandise, concessions, donations, etc. would all increase significantly. If that coach strung together a few great seasons and then got hired away, the program is in a better place which means the caliber of your next head coach increases which increases the opportunity to build on the momentum. This is how other schools like UH, UCF, Cincinnati, Boise State, etc. have climbed the ladder, and it's a realistic roadmap for UNT as well if the decision is made to pursue it.

With this, the upside potential is far greater than the downside risk for UNT right now.

What I find fascinating is that when McCarney was head coach, people on here would grumble that we would often "play to not lose" instead of "play to win." They're two different mentalities, and they bring different results.

As a program right now, it feels like if we keep Seth we're playing to "not lose" instead of playing to win.

I think it's time UNT plays to win.

I’ve followed this place since 1990. The only time I have ever seen us make an opportunity cost change at the head coaching position before the buyout was under a year on the contract was the moment Dan McCarney got fired on the spot after losing to Portland State on Homecoming. He got $2.1 million dollars in a buyout, which was a lot of money here at UNT. And because of that, we had to keep our basketball coach for his final year of his contract, which kept us from having any buyout. 
 

We didn’t do that this time, as SL got to stay, probably due to a factor of major expense here + risk of losing a BMD(s) who are all in on SL. Again, that’s expensive here and we always have run the athletic department on a known cost basis. Maybe this doesn’t continue…maybe we look at the situation and ask what it would take to actually hire someone here that could get butts in seats that match the attendance we claim each home game. But the track record is why I’m of the belief that SL will be here as coach with a new contract that gets him another 2-3 years added on to next year.

[Wag Tag]

1 minute ago, El Paso Eagle said:

Blah, Blah, keep making excuses and support whatever is put out so you can show what a "Fan" is.  Do you think people outside a few care about wins against bottom dwelling FBS teams? Seth's record out of conference is terrible. At least Dickey won championships.

At this point I could care less about what he has done, but care about the now and what he is doing! You guys can’t bitch about a great win so you have to find something else to hate on. He goes 6-6 he should be fired, but if he goes 8-4 from your uneducated opinion he should be fired because he makes to much money!! Winning takes care of all the problems except for the haters!

[El Paso Eagle]

1 minute ago, Wag Tag said:

At this point I could care less about what he has done, but care about the now and what he is doing! You guys can’t bitch about a great win so you have to find something else to hate on. He goes 6-6 he should be fired, but if he goes 8-4 from your uneducated opinion he should be fired because he makes to much money!! Winning takes care of all the problems except for the haters!

At the risk of this going on and on with someone clearly more educated (thank you for looking down from your "I am smarter than others" glass house to converse with someone of my lowly level of education to banter)  .. We have had one "great" win in the past 3.5 years - Beating a ranked UTSA team last year. If you consider the WKU game a "great" win then I guess your green glasses are so think that you are the textbook definition of "Old Denton".

P.S. - No one says he should be fired just because he make too much money, I think he should be fired because he has had 7 years and has not won championships or bowl games.

[greenminer]

I think opinion will vary on this, depending on whether or not you think SL is hitting his ceiling, or if you think there will be a continuation of improvement that is good enough for the AAC and beyond.

[Udomann]

13 minutes ago, greenminer said:

I think opinion will vary on this, depending on whether or not you think SL is hitting his ceiling, or if you think there will be a continuation of improvement that is good enough for the AAC and beyond.

Maybe we can boil it down to one single question:

Could UNT hire someone better with our resources?

My opinion is absolutely. And with little risk.

 

 

Edited October 31, 2022 by Udomann

[greenminer]

3 minutes ago, Udomann said:

My opinion is absolutely. And with little risk.

 

My observation is, this opinion is not universal.

Edited October 31, 2022 by greenminer

[Udomann]

1 minute ago, greenminer said:

My observation is, this opinion is not universal.

So Seth is the best of what we can do as a school. This is it! We peaked! Pack it in folks, UNT football has finally done all it can.

[TheColonyEagle]

3 minutes ago, Udomann said:

Maybe we can boil it down to one single question:

Could UNT hire someone better with our resources?

My opinion is absolutely. And with little risk.

100%

And that squashes any of the “Littrell has leverage talk”

If Wren Baker looks across the table at Jimmy Sexton this season or next and thinks in his mind he can get a better coach (and I would bet he thinks that), then that eliminates any leverage Sexton thinks he may have. Wren can try him out in the AAC for 2 years under his terms or Littrell can walk. 
 

There is no circumstance what so ever that should give Littrell any leverage…the only leverage is he leaves. That’s not much leverage given his record…

[greenminer]

26 minutes ago, Udomann said:

So Seth is the best of what we can do as a school. This is it! We peaked! Pack it in folks, UNT football has finally done all it can.

You're really trying to run with this.

I was referring to the risk part, in case you didn't consider that.

[Udomann]

20 minutes ago, greenminer said:

You're really trying to run with this.

I was referring to the risk part, in case you didn't consider that.

You work with what you get.

As I tell my wife, i promise I'll read her mind better next time!

[Wag Tag]

1 hour ago, El Paso Eagle said:

At the risk of this going on and on with someone clearly more educated (thank you for looking down from your "I am smarter than others" glass house to converse with someone of my lowly level of education to banter)  .. We have had one "great" win in the past 3.5 years - Beating a ranked UTSA team last year. If you consider the WKU game a "great" win then I guess your green glasses are so think that you are the textbook definition of "Old Denton".

P.S. - No one says he should be fired just because he make too much money, I think he should be fired because he has had 7 years and has not won championships or bowl games.

That comment was referring to his Sherlock comment. How many on this page thought we would beat WKU?? There y’all go again downplay victories and gripe about salary.  We beat UTSA “but it was raining”. The negative group, just keeps digging hoping for more loses.

[El Paso Eagle]

5 minutes ago, Wag Tag said:

That comment was referring to his Sherlock comment. How many on this page thought we would beat WKU?? There y’all go again downplay victories and gripe about salary.  We beat UTSA “but it was raining”. The negative group, just keeps digging hoping for more loses.

Is there a negative group? Yes, without a doubt. And yes, having the highest paid coach in the conference and being a bad program for the past three years has some expecting the worst. So it seems one side is looking to focus on the negatives and the other side is willing to overlook the problems for anything positive. Seems the only thing for sure is that Seth has split the fanbase. If he is here for another 2-3 and we still stay around the .500 mark will we lose any potential momentum from the conference shift? Last year, after the announced move we never saw a recruiting bump, in fact it was our worst since 2018 (average wise). If Seth is still the coach next year I hope he makes changes to improve in the new league. Will he? hard to tell.

[Wag Tag]

1 minute ago, El Paso Eagle said:

Is there a negative group? Yes, without a doubt. And yes, having the highest paid coach in the conference and being a bad program for the past three years has some expecting the worst. So it seems one side is looking to focus on the negatives and the other side is willing to overlook the problems for anything positive. Seems the only thing for sure is that Seth has split the fanbase. If he is here for another 2-3 and we still stay around the .500 mark will we lose any potential momentum from the conference shift? Last year, after the announced move we never saw a recruiting bump, in fact it was our worst since 2018 (average wise). If Seth is still the coach next year I hope he makes changes to improve in the new league. Will he? hard to tell.

I was pissed with the recruiting and transfers and we both have been proven wrong! HS recruiting is dead to me. Take the studs from the lower conferences has proven successful at this time. The stud qb for WKY transferred from a lower conference. If he craters yes fire him if he gets to the Championship game and bowl game and wins one give him a 2 year extension, not five.

[El Paso Eagle]

25 minutes ago, Wag Tag said:

I was pissed with the recruiting and transfers and we both have been proven wrong! HS recruiting is dead to me. Take the studs from the lower conferences has proven successful at this time. The stud qb for WKY transferred from a lower conference. If he craters yes fire him if he gets to the Championship game and bowl game and wins one give him a 2 year extension, not five.

I would be very hesitant to take a HS recruit at this point. I think going after the FCS and D2 could be a good deal. S far as QB - Only transfers. Look at Incarnate Word, they lose their QB to Washington and find a transfer from freaking Nicholls State who is tearing it up. Would still like to see us be more successful on getting P5 transfers who have played but want to come back home the the DFW area.

[NorthTexasWeLove]

If we have Skip or Deon zeroed in on, pull the trigger after the next loss. I'm married to no one. GMG