DRC: UNT storylines at the halfway point -- Littrell in position to solidify return, Aune's rise, lack of a big win

[Marty]

19 hours ago, ntmeangreen11 said:

Listen to Vito's answer to the question at 3:45. His opinion is based on the past not the present. The crowd this past Saturday tells you all you need to know about whether or not it's time to pull the plug.

Brett says we were "NOT" gonna beat Troy or Utah State. I say why not?? Why can't NT beat those type of teams. So tired of the mediocrity surrounding the program. 

If memory serves me correctly, Brett did pick NT to beat Utah State in the NM Bowl.

[GMG_Dallas]

6 minutes ago, SilverEagle said:

Most coaches that are capable of making changes in a program do so in their first three years. Dennis Franchione and Hayden Fry come to mind.

Hayden Fry was 5-5-1 his first year at NT. The next year (74) was his only losing season at NT. By his third year at Iowa Hayden had the Hawkeyes in the Rose Bowl.

Dennis Franchione took a TCU team that was 1-10 in 1997 and went 7-5,8-4, and 10-1 in the next three years.

 

 

Seth Littrell taking a 1-11 team to 5-8 his first year (+4 wins), followed by a 9-5 season (+4 again), and 9-4 again isn't significant progress from when he took over? Hindsight is 20/20 on SL but his first 3 seasons showed he was capable of turning it around, even if some believe he got lucky with Fine. He just hasn't been able to sustain the early success.

[UNTethered Eagle]

21 minutes ago, GMG_Dallas said:

Seth Littrell taking a 1-11 team to 5-8 his first year (+4 wins), followed by a 9-5 season (+4 again), and 9-4 again isn't significant progress from when he took over? Hindsight is 20/20 on SL but his first 3 seasons showed he was capable of turning it around, even if some believe he got lucky with Fine. He just hasn't been able to sustain the early success.

Totally agree with you here - he hasn’t been able to sustain that initial success. And I’m extremely appreciative of the turnaround, however his collective body of work over 7 seasons has shown he’s not the ticket going forward. I personally think even with a winning season we need to part ways.

[Wag Tag]

18 hours ago, NorthTexasWeLove said:

I think 1 game of differential is splitting hairs. My opinion is my own and it's subject to change, but given the notion of the how SL keeping his job is gaining momnetum then he needs to basically win out to keep his job. Otherwise, more if the same should be expected if he's given an extension. I do not want more of the same. 

If he goes 7-5 and wins a bowl game it will hard to can him. That would mean he beat either UTSA or WKY or UAB. Depending n his record the bowl could be the determining factor.

[Dannymacfan]

4 minutes ago, Wag Tag said:

If he goes 7-5 and wins a bowl game it will hard to can him. That would mean he beat either UTSA or WKY or UAB. Depending n his record the bowl could be the determining factor.

We can’t wait that long!

[Wag Tag]

17 minutes ago, Dannymacfan said:

We can’t wait that long!

6-6 you let him go and have Cobb coach the bowl game with the announcement of the new head coach.  If he has more wins and the bowl game is the determining factor with us playing early bowl games I don’t think it will hurt on recruiting. Our class should be more transfers than HS players anyways.

[GMG_Dallas]

44 minutes ago, UNTethered Eagle said:

Totally agree with you here - he hasn’t been able to sustain that initial success. And I’m extremely appreciative of the turnaround, however his collective body of work over 7 seasons has shown he’s not the ticket going forward. I personally think even with a winning season we need to part ways.

I agree. I think winning out, including winning the conference championship, is the only way I'd change my mind. That of course would depend on how the bowl game looks as well. Obviously I'm not a decision maker here but it should take a truly special season for him to get an extra year.

[southsideguy]

I think we have to look at the teams we played outside the conference. Most CUSA teams are bad.  

Edited October 8, 2022 by southsideguy

[Cr1028]

4 hours ago, UNTethered Eagle said:

 

“The pressure is clearly on Littrell. The outlook didn’t appear promising when UNT was blown out by SMU and UNLV. A win over FAU improved matters significantly.”

“The path to a winning season and a bowl game is there. It’s hard to imagine UNT firing and buying out a coach coming off a winning season.”

 

I’ll speak for myself, but these 2 quotes scream “low expectations” as far as Vito’s opinion on our school and team. Balanced or not, the undertone needs to change. 

He says the pressure is on Littrell. The outlook doesn’t look promising on a two game losing streak. Winning a game to break the losing streak and move to a 2-0 conference record does improve your standing from the prior week.

The path/opportunity for a winning season is still there as he said. And it wouldn’t make perfect sense to fire a coach who improved from year to year and ends with a winning record. 

I think SL has a tall hill to climb to earn another season but Vito’s article did nothing to sugarcoat that. He just laid it out there not skewed to his benefit or detriment. I think @Brett Vitowas very fair. He isn’t here to be a fanboy of the school or the coach.

[UNT Family Man]

I get Brett’s position— during the pre and post DD era we would have clamored for .500 football and a bowl game every year. Littrell has done nothing but raise our standards to now want more than.500 ball by beating the worst teams in college football. The fan base wants more and quite frankly deserves more with the kind of money the athletic department is spending. 
 

It will take some combination of 7+ wins (against the right teams), Conference Championship game appearance/win, and a bowl win!!! To move the needle. 

Edited October 8, 2022 by UNT Family Man

[UNTethered Eagle]

1 hour ago, Cr1028 said:

He says the pressure is on Littrell. The outlook doesn’t look promising on a two game losing streak. Winning a game to break the losing streak and move to a 2-0 conference record does improve your standing from the prior week.

The path/opportunity for a winning season is still there as he said. And it wouldn’t make perfect sense to fire a coach who improved from year to year and ends with a winning record. 

I think SL has a tall hill to climb to earn another season but Vito’s article did nothing to sugarcoat that. He just laid it out there not skewed to his benefit or detriment. I think @Brett Vitowas very fair. He isn’t here to be a fanboy of the school or the coach.

 

I agree with everything you stated except about letting SL go, even with an improved/improving season we should part ways friends.
 

With Vito it’s more his title “Littrell in position to solidify return” that give me puking Eagle emoji vibes. The article undertone doubles down on that. I actually like Vito btw.

[Cr1028]

59 minutes ago, UNTethered Eagle said:

 

I agree with everything you stated except about letting SL go, even with an improved/improving season we should part ways friends.
 

With Vito it’s more his title “Littrell in position to solidify return” that give me puking Eagle emoji vibes. The article undertone doubles down on that. I actually like Vito btw.

We indeed may be better without SL but then again we could be much, much, worse.

Edited October 8, 2022 by Cr1028

[greenminer]

13 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

We indeed may be better without SL but then again we could be much, much, worse.

I hope no one is using this as an excuse to hang onto mediocrity.

When it's time to move on, it's time to move on.  Take the plunge and the risks that come with it.

[NT80]

3 hours ago, GMG_Dallas said:

Seth Littrell taking a 1-11 team to 5-8 his first year (+4 wins), followed by a 9-5 season (+4 again), and 9-4 again isn't significant progress from when he took over? Hindsight is 20/20 on SL but his first 3 seasons showed he was capable of turning it around, even if some believe he got lucky with Fine. He just hasn't been able to sustain the early success.

Who really caused the turnaround?   Seth or because of Mason Fine and GH?  When they left it's been downhill.  

[Cr1028]

15 minutes ago, NT80 said:

Who really caused the turnaround?   Seth or because of Mason Fine and GH?  When they left it's been downhill.  

I can’t remember who was responsible for bringing those two to Denton, do you?

[GMG_Dallas]

28 minutes ago, NT80 said:

Who really caused the turnaround?   Seth or because of Mason Fine and GH?  When they left it's been downhill.  

Head coaches are like CEOs. Their job is to choose the direction of the program and how everything will be run and put a staff together that can achieve those goals. A head coach can't be in charge of recruiting every region, recruiting every player, coaching every position, developing every wrinkle in the gameplan, etc...  His issue has been replacing his original coaching staff that little by little was plucked away with other coaches that could get the job done. I guess you can say that still falls on SL but you still have to give him credit for bringing in Harrell and Fine in the first place.

[El Paso Eagle]

3 hours ago, Cr1028 said:

We indeed may be better without SL but then again we could be much, much, worse.

So I'll take that as your vote for play it safe and don't take the chance for exceptional performances

[Cr1028]

21 minutes ago, El Paso Eagle said:

So I'll take that as your vote for play it safe and don't take the chance for exceptional performances

It means I’m hesitant to fire a coach while he is sitting with a 2-0 conference record. If that 2-0 turns to 2-3, I will feel much differently. Right now I don’t care what happened in 2019 (when we went 4-8) or 2017 (when we won the division), I am only concerned with where we are in 2022 and the direction we are headed. Are we improving or getting worse. It seems to me that we started off hot, stunk it up for 2 games and are starting to play well again. The next 3 weeks will tell us a great deal about the direction of the program and I have a feeling that Wren will have a good idea before FIU whether Littrell will be back or not. If we are 6-3 with a 5-0 conference record he likely stays, if we are 3-6 with a 2-3 conference record he likely goes. Either way, Wren will know on October 30th what he plans to do whether he makes a midseason announcement or not.

Edited October 8, 2022 by Cr1028

[Pseudo Nym]

This Herbstreit take regarding Jimbo/Texas A&M's struggles could be applied to UNT:

"Herbstreit countered while bringing the program’s culture into the mix, completely disagreeing that youth on both sides of the ball can be used as the sole reason for the team’s immense struggles this season:

Quote

“When I hear that they’re young, he’s been there five years, you can’t use that they’re young,” Herbstreit stated. “To me, it’s more about culture. I’m just curious to see are the kids all in for each other. Sometimes, you wonder if they’re all on the same page. When it’s not going good, you see cracks in the armor.”

https://sports.yahoo.com/according-kirk-herbstreit-jimbo-fisher-180125221.html

Ultimately his point is that five years should be enough time to establish a culture that bares results on the field at a consistent high level.

AKA: A Winning Culture!

I think this is fundamental to the frustration and criticism of SL and leads many to question what our identity is if it isn't competing consistently at a high level (Who are we? Where are we as a program?).

After seven years if you can't answer those questions (Who are we? Where are we as a program?) easily or the answer isn't positive, then is the coach even close to establishing that identity, that culture?

In Herbstreit's analysis, based off his response above, the answer is no.

 

[NT80]

5 hours ago, Cr1028 said:

I can’t remember who was responsible for bringing those two to Denton, do you?

Couldn't replace them either could he?  

[NT80]

4 hours ago, GMG_Dallas said:

Head coaches are like CEOs. Their job is to choose the direction of the program and how everything will be run and put a staff together that can achieve those goals. A head coach can't be in charge of recruiting every region, recruiting every player, coaching every position, developing every wrinkle in the gameplan, etc...  His issue has been replacing his original coaching staff that little by little was plucked away with other coaches that could get the job done. I guess you can say that still falls on SL but you still have to give him credit for bringing in Harrell and Fine in the first place.

Sure, the team was fine with Fine and Harrell.   But not so fine without Fine and Harrell.  Seth hasn't found quality replacements since.  That falls on him.  

[GMG_Dallas]

48 minutes ago, NT80 said:

Sure, the team was fine with Fine and Harrell.   But not so fine without Fine and Harrell.  Seth hasn't found quality replacements since.  That falls on him.  

It absolutely does fall him. He gets credit for getting them here and blame for not finding quality replacements. I wonder if that's a general concern with young coordinators being coaches. One has to wonder how big the professional network is for a 40 year old coach as opposed to a guy who's been around an extra 10 years or so.

[NT80]

1 hour ago, GMG_Dallas said:

It absolutely does fall him. He gets credit for getting them here and blame for not finding quality replacements. I wonder if that's a general concern with young coordinators being coaches. One has to wonder how big the professional network is for a 40 year old coach as opposed to a guy who's been around an extra 10 years or so.

Coordinators may be excellent X&O gurus but they don't always make good managers of people or know how to obtain good people (or how to inspire fan bases). 

Head coaches like you mentioned are like CEOs.  If their business (team) is not doing well, it is up to him to make the personnel adjustments (assistants and players) to make it better.  This is where Seth has generally failed.  Hiring GH and PB was a win, until GH left.  Not finding a suitable QB after Mason, the most important position on the team, has been a fail.

[Mike Jackson]

On 10/7/2022 at 2:23 PM, TheColonyEagle said:

Not really saying he's right or wrong....but like many around the program, he views it the way he views it and has a really low standard for UNT. (and yes...I understand it's been earned, would just like to see it changed)

Put another way: I just can't say "going to Bowl games with losing records is something positive because we haven't gone to many..."

 

This program tries half ass and some praise it for half ass "achievements".   7 years no trophies of ANY kind unless CUSA wants to retroactively give trophies for division titles.  (A CUSA conference so prestigious we can't wait to upgrade to a better G5 conference that has vacancies because their best teams wanted to leave. 😂).   Wow, with this mentality I understand why leadership chose to drop the program down to FCS.

 

On 10/7/2022 at 5:10 PM, UNTcrazy727 said:

6-6 is a legit bowl birth. 

You know that is below 0.500 against FBS competition any year we schedule a home visit from a FCS school?   If you are program in the bottom of revenue generation and spending in your conference 6-6 is legitimate.  Anytime you go to a bowl and you  not are even 2nd in your division of a G5 conference you don't deserve a bowl game with a 6-6 record.

[UNTcrazy727]

59 minutes ago, texx2818 said:

Don’t bother trying to have a reasonable conversation with “UNTCrazy727” lmao

That’s ironic coming from the guy who’s incapable of posting without insulting someone.