The Issue With Seth Littrell's Recruiting

[MGNation92]

To start off this post I'm gonna post @BillySee58's post from a previous thread as it summarizes the issue quite well

Quote

I think the point that keeps getting lost here is that the commits, individually, are not who the criticism and disappointment is surrounding. It's the coaching staff.

15 of our last 16 commits have had us as the only active FBS offers at the time of commitment. Sure there is time for these current commits to pick up more offers. Of course there are examples of players in the past being productive players despite having just one FBS offer. And maybe some of these guys will join such a list. Regardless, the posts I have seen have not been trashing recruits individually. It's a collective evaluation of the current state of UNT recruiting.

@MGNation92 received some pretty harsh criticism, and high-grade post misinterpretation recently. He's not the only one. This is about watching the third cycle of Littrell recruits and still not seeing any real progress in head-to-head recruiting results. 

I don't get why it's so hard to understand people critically evaluating this and coming to the conclusion that this is concerning. Doesn't mean we aren't rooting for this team and program, or these commits. 

With that I'd like to add a few points:

1. It's not a bad thing to offer kids early, hell if we're the first one to offer them, then they get 10 more FBS offers And they commit to us, I'm all for it.

2. More often than not, kids with only one FBS offer don't fare as well in the FBS game, why? They're not bad players. They don't suck. They clearly have skills to at least contribute at a FCS/DII level at worst, and maybe, to a degree at the FBS level. However, history has shown that FBS staff do not offer these kids for one reason or another, and there's typically a good reason as to why they didn't.

3. I will never criticize a player that chooses UNT. I am ecstatic for the players that want to continue their careers here and be a part of something special. This does not, however, warrant anyone to believe that because a particular player commits to us, this staff is doing a good job at recruiting as a whole. 

4. If the staff cannot consistently win recruiting battles with fellow C-USA/SBC/AAC schools, the UNT football program will continue to show subpar results on the field. You cannot out-scheme higher quality talent on a consistent basis.

5. I'm done ranting about the whole recruiting issue, so for anyone that wants to refute or disprove anything I've said. Say it here, not sarcastically in another post about myself or others that share the same mindset. We offer a kid with no offers? Okay. He gets 15 more offers? Great. Get him to commit to the University of North Texas after those 15 offers and I guarantee you all of the naysayers will gladly shut the hell up.

Until then. We have a lot of work to do.

[Harry]

5 hours ago, MGNation92 said:

4. If the staff cannot consistently win recruiting battles with fellow C-USA/SBC/AAC schools, the UNT football program will continue to show subpar results on the field. You cannot out-scheme higher quality talent on a consistent basis.

agreed and good post.

[MeanGreenTexan]

14 hours ago, MGNation92 said:

...

1. It's not a bad thing to offer kids early, hell if we're the first one to offer them, then they get 10 more FBS offers And they commit to us, I'm all for it.

...

I wholeheartedly agree.
I keep seeing people cite guys UNT was on early... that committed to other schools.    That is not helping their arguments.   I don't think those folks are fully understanding the argument.
 

[MGNation92]

22 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

I wholeheartedly agree.
I keep seeing people cite guys UNT was on early... that committed to other schools.    That is not helping their arguments.   I don't think those folks are fully understanding the argument.
 

Right? I find it hilariously ironic that a guy we offered early gets 10 more offers but still doesn't commit to UNT and people say "BUT I THOUGHT WE COULDN'T RECRUIT. LOOK AT ALL THESE NEW OFFERS"

Actually, you just proved my point but okay.

Edit: I realize it's June and kids will get a lot of offers between now and signing day. My point is to win the recruiting battles with the kids we want and keep them regardless of new offers.

Edited June 8, 2017 by MGNation92

[Aldo]

16 hours ago, MGNation92 said:

Until then. We have a lot of work to do.

I appreciate the "we need to be better" position instead of "these coaches suck" that prevails. You laid out the points clearly.

But I agree, we need to do better. The honeymoon is over. 

These past classes are the upperclassmen that will host Houston in a couple seasons.

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

On 6/8/2017 at 10:25 AM, Aldo said:

I appreciate the "we need to be better" position instead of "these coaches suck" that prevails. You laid out the points clearly.

But I agree, we need to do better. The honeymoon is over. 

These past classes are the upperclassmen that will host Houston in a couple seasons.

At the current rate over half of our roster will be full of guys who were choosing between FCS and Division II schools and us.  It's not going to be pretty for us for the next two or three seasons if the recruiting doesn't begin to match the paychecks we are cutting coaching staff.

If we are going to recruit FCS, then drop back down to FCS.  Paying FBS money to a coaching staff to recruit an FCS roster isn't acceptable. 

[MGNation92]

Gonna bump this because my point continues to stand with every new recruit we have commit

[Cr1028]

So is the problem every coach we've had over the last 2 decades or is the problem North Texas?

[BillySee58]

23 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

So is the problem every coach we've had over the last 2 decades or is the problem North Texas?

The problem is letting the same athletic director be involved in the hiring process after proving incompetence in every aspect of his job time and time again.

The eight coaches RV hired in the big three sports who have started their mean green coaching careers in the past 10 years are Dodge, Stephens, Mccarney, Aston, Benford, Peterson, Mitchell, Littrell. Those coaches are a combined 174 games under .500, including Canales as interim coach (188-362).

Edited June 19, 2017 by BillySee58

[Ben Gooding]

23 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

So is the problem every coach we've had over the last 2 decades or is the problem North Texas?

Both. 

But our AD hiring coaches during a lot of that 20 year span hired a good football coach 0 times. He was a very solid 0 for 2. The other coach in his tenure was actually a pretty good coach and said AD ran him off. Dickey brought in good players for SunBelt and he won with them. 

But the culture of fan and administrative support has to turn a corner. I think it is starting to, but we have to win to keep it turning. And it was perfectly put by someone...We can't keep paying coaches FBS salaries for a FCS roster. 

[GMG24]

11 minutes ago, Ben Gooding said:

Both. 

But our AD hiring coaches during a lot of that 20 year span hired a good football coach 0 times. He was a very solid 0 for 2. The other coach in his tenure was actually a pretty good coach and said AD ran him off. Dickey brought in good players for SunBelt and he won with them. 

But the culture of fan and administrative support has to turn a corner. I think it is starting to, but we have to win to keep it turning. And it was perfectly put by someone...We can't keep paying coaches FBS salaries for a FCS roster. 

You seen our facilities? FCS.  The HS I coach at has a weight room that rivals ours, and we have a 50 yard indoor. Hard to wow a kid when their HS facilities are better than a D1

[UNTLifer]

1 hour ago, MGNation92 said:

Gonna bump this because my point continues to stand with every new recruit we have commit

Confirming you think these kids are not good enough to play for us and make us successful, hence, they suck.  Got it.

[BTG_Fan1]

2 hours ago, GMG24 said:

You seen our facilities? FCS.  The HS I coach at has a weight room that rivals ours, and we have a 50 yard indoor. Hard to wow a kid when their HS facilities are better than a D1

Amen! 

An IPF is not going to leave for a P5. Improving the Weightroom will not leave for a P5, etc. Facilities have to be invested in big time and upgraded ASAP!

We have to give these coaches the tools to be able to bring in kids. If kids see the facilities decrease from HS to College, can you really say that they (the school) are really that interested in that program? It also leads to a lack of success as well, because these kids are not getting the same benefits as other schools. Yes we can compare ourselves to the likes of UTSA, but UTSA has been around how long compared to UNT? They again do not have the losing image that we do, nor do they have the image of not being able to put kids in the NFL Draft. Also, they have an IPF (the alamodome) that we do not, even if its crappy. But with us thinking it is crappy, we have not seen the underbelly of the stadium that the players see. 

[Ben Gooding]

7 hours ago, GMG24 said:

You seen our facilities? FCS.  The HS I coach at has a weight room that rivals ours, and we have a 50 yard indoor. Hard to wow a kid when their HS facilities are better than a D1

If we have FCS facilities paired with our FCS roster, then we need to go to FCS and stay this time. No reason to pay FBS salaries when everything else is FCS. 

[UNTLifer]

2 hours ago, Ben Gooding said:

If we have FCS facilities paired with our FCS roster, then we need to go to FCS and stay this time. No reason to pay FBS salaries when everything else is FCS. 

Yep, that's the solution, or we could commit to improving our facilities to catch up to the year's of neglect from former administrations.  The choice is your's, sit on your hands and stagnate or improve.

[BTG_Fan1]

6 hours ago, Ben Gooding said:

If we have FCS facilities paired with our FCS roster, then we need to go to FCS and stay this time. No reason to pay FBS salaries when everything else is FCS. 

Maybe that is why the IPF has not been announced and why the soccer stadium was put off?

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

The latest commit had an offer from us and Texas A&M-Commerce...a Division II school.

Again, if we are an FCS school, I don't see this a so much a problem.  However, we are an FBS school that is now paying its head coach $1 million and has given raises all around to the assistants.

It's a problem. 

We don't have anything personal against the kids, inasmuch as they are just kids and, of course, are going to take their best offer.  That's smart of them.  But, that doesn't change their talent level.

What's not smart of our coaching staff is sticking the next coaching staff with a roster full of kids who were not good enough to complete at the FBS level. 

[BTG_Fan1]

19 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

The latest commit had an offer from us and Texas A&M-Commerce...a Division II school.

Again, if we are an FCS school, I don't see this a so much a problem.  However, we are an FBS school that is now paying its head coach $1 million and has given raises all around to the assistants.

It's a problem. 

We don't have anything personal against the kids, inasmuch as they are just kids and, of course, are going to take their best offer.  That's smart of them.  But, that doesn't change their talent level.

What's not smart of our coaching staff is sticking the next coaching staff with a roster full of kids who were not good enough to complete at the FBS level. 

You have no idea if they can complete! SL and GH are not coaching like Mac was, who was on his last leg. 

SL and this entire staff will be coaching for another 10-20 years. 

UNT has nothing positive going on for it. We have facilities that rank below local High Schools. We have had how many seasons? We have had 1 in like the last 10 years+. We do not produce NFL Talent, when the local G5 have produced it. LAT had a 1st round pick last year, UTSA has had kids drafted, Rice as well, UTEP as well. We are at the bottom of the entire DFW Market when it comes to things to do. People would rather go to a Mavs, Cowboys, Rangers, or Stars game, or go to a TCU/SMU game, or go to downtown FTW or Dallas, or even go to a minor league game in frisco. UNT ranks at the very best maybe 3rd or 4th. 

UNT is hurt big time by not producing kids that play in the NFL. Orr was well on his way to getting a big contract, and was well on his way to putting himself and UNT on the map when it comes to talented/notable players in the NFL. Our most notable is Robertson, but he is not a guy who will be a Pro-Bowl/All-Pro Player like Orr was. UNT needs to hope that Jenkins and McClain have big seasons for them to be selected in the draft. 

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

4 minutes ago, BTG_Fan1 said:

You have no idea if they can complete! SL and GH are not coaching like Mac was, who was on his last leg. 

SL and this entire staff will be coaching for another 10-20 years. 

UNT has nothing positive going on for it. We have facilities that rank below local High Schools. We have had how many seasons? We have had 1 in like the last 10 years+. We do not produce NFL Talent, when the local G5 have produced it. LAT had a 1st round pick last year, UTSA has had kids drafted, Rice as well, UTEP as well. We are at the bottom of the entire DFW Market when it comes to things to do. People would rather go to a Mavs, Cowboys, Rangers, or Stars game, or go to a TCU/SMU game, or go to downtown FTW or Dallas, or even go to a minor league game in frisco. UNT ranks at the very best maybe 3rd or 4th. 

UNT is hurt big time by not producing kids that play in the NFL. Orr was well on his way to getting a big contract, and was well on his way to putting himself and UNT on the map when it comes to talented/notable players in the NFL. Our most notable is Robertson, but he is not a guy who will be a Pro-Bowl/All-Pro Player like Orr was. UNT needs to hope that Jenkins and McClain have big seasons for them to be selected in the draft. 

I do have an idea of whether or not they can compete.  I watched them go 5-8 last, winning three on second half outbursts from one player:  Jeffrey Wilson.  I saw a "spread" offense with as many TD passes as the 2015 Dan McCarney squad.   

Nothing has been added on either side of the ball, or in the coaching staff, that would lead to anything more competitive.  The ceiling is 6 or 7 wins, if all goes perfect.  All rarely goes perfect, so 4 or 5 wins is more likely.

Then, with another class akin to his first two signed in February 2018, the roster will be mostly his recruits; and, so 2018 is likely when we'll see the really big drop off in competitiveness.

Also, because I became a student and began following UNT football in 1990, I don't need a re-hash of why were haven't been competitive.  There are a myriad of reasons - all true, unfortunately.

The simple fact is whether you are playing a one on one or a team sport, the better talent almost always wins.  And, they do win more consistently.  It's not schools signing FCS and Division II-only offers that are winning championships in FBS football.  So, we do have a pretty good idea of who will compete in the future and who will not based on recruiting.

Dam McCarney didn't raise the level of recruiting, though he had a hit here and there.  And, so far, Littrell isn't raising the bar either.  Some will be willing to wait for the failure to go ahead and call if failure. 

Those of us who have seen 18 losing seasons over the last 22 years will simply not wait.  The recruiting looks underwhelming, so we expect the football to be underwhelming.  We can't say we didn't expect it when it happens.

Every year, I predict we will go 6-6. And, that's my prediction again this year.  It leave little room for disappointment when we don't hit it. 

[UNTLifer]

1 hour ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

The latest commit had an offer from us and Texas A&M-Commerce...a Division II school.

Again, if we are an FCS school, I don't see this a so much a problem.  However, we are an FBS school that is now paying its head coach $1 million and has given raises all around to the assistants.

It's a problem. 

We don't have anything personal against the kids, inasmuch as they are just kids and, of course, are going to take their best offer.  That's smart of them.  But, that doesn't change their talent level.

What's not smart of our coaching staff is sticking the next coaching staff with a roster full of kids who were not good enough to complete at the FBS level. 

Have you seen our latest commit play?  As the #8 ranked QB in Texas, Texas Football has him ranked ahead of commits to OU, Tech, LSU and La Tech.

http://www.texasfootball.com/2018qb/

 

Edited June 19, 2017 by UNTLifer

[BTG_Fan1]

41 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

I do have an idea of whether or not they can compete.  I watched them go 5-8 last, winning three on second half outbursts from one player:  Jeffrey Wilson.  I saw a "spread" offense with as many TD passes as the 2015 Dan McCarney squad.   

Nothing has been added on either side of the ball, or in the coaching staff, that would lead to anything more competitive.  The ceiling is 6 or 7 wins, if all goes perfect.  All rarely goes perfect, so 4 or 5 wins is more likely.

Then, with another class akin to his first two signed in February 2018, the roster will be mostly his recruits; and, so 2018 is likely when we'll see the really big drop off in competitiveness.

Also, because I became a student and began following UNT football in 1990, I don't need a re-hash of why were haven't been competitive.  There are a myriad of reasons - all true, unfortunately.

The simple fact is whether you are playing a one on one or a team sport, the better talent almost always wins.  And, they do win more consistently.  It's not schools signing FCS and Division II-only offers that are winning championships in FBS football.  So, we do have a pretty good idea of who will compete in the future and who will not based on recruiting.

Dam McCarney didn't raise the level of recruiting, though he had a hit here and there.  And, so far, Littrell isn't raising the bar either.  Some will be willing to wait for the failure to go ahead and call if failure. 

Those of us who have seen 18 losing seasons over the last 22 years will simply not wait.  The recruiting looks underwhelming, so we expect the football to be underwhelming.  We can't say we didn't expect it when it happens.

Every year, I predict we will go 6-6. And, that's my prediction again this year.  It leave little room for disappointment when we don't hit it. 

This team has added a lot to both sides in a short time. They added Wheeler, Jenks, English, HamBone on defense.On Offense they have added Siggers, Rico, Wilson, Guyton, White, amoung others. We can say that we think that we know about competition, but these coaches know traits to look for that can develop that we overlook as well.

No one is going to argue about that Talent wins, but this staff showed last year that it could challenge teams with a roster of kids that went 1-11. They did not have much talent at all last year. Mac didn't increase the level of recruiting because he was not looking for another job. He was okay with staying here till he retired or got fired. He didn't make an effort to change or improve, while SL and his staff have improved the recruiting in terms of connections with HS coaches. The next thing is to improve the things needed for SL and this staff to bring in top level talent. While keeping up and improving on the level of coaching that was used this year moving the team from 1-11 to 5-8. 

You may not want to wait, and there is no reason that you should have too. The staff showed, they can take a 1-11 team to a bowl game the next year. The waiting game is more on the facilities and changing the mindsets of coaches, families and high school kids, but that can only be done by winning and adding things necessary to help these kids improve themselves for them to get drafted.