Wac Had Bcs Bowl Champ, Now Has 2 In Top 25

[VideoEagle]

Who said "Go West Young Man, Go West"

A man who stayed in the East and became one of the richest newspaper men in the world.

[PlummMeanGreen]

I had rather see Boise, Fresno, Hawaii, NMSU, La Tech, Idaho, Utah St, San Jose State come to Fouts every other year than FAU, FIU, Middle Tenn, La Monroe, LLa, Troy. My take

Who said "Go West Young Man, Go West"

Be careful, Al, you'll be put in the "heretic club" by such thoughts.

Keep preaching to our growing choir, though.

[CMJ]

I had rather see Boise, Fresno, Hawaii, NMSU, La Tech, Idaho, Utah St, San Jose State come to Fouts every other year than FAU, FIU, Middle Tenn, La Monroe, LLa, Troy. My take

Who said "Go West Young Man, Go West"

How were are attendance figures in the Big West? Four of those schools were in the old BW and didn't draw well at all.

[stebo]

It is funny how people have selective memories when it comes to promises. RV stated that we would no longer pile on 4-5 money games a year. He also stated that he WOULD get that number down to TWO rather then FIVE. He has kept his word. Now, if you want to do away with these money games completely - you simply increase attendance. RV also did a feasibility study to find out exactly how many fans we needed in the stands to make up for a "money" game and the number was in the area of 26K fans at Fouts. So - if we could average 26K fans a game, we could do away with the money games just like Hawaii and Boise. Guess what Hawaii and Boise have in common? They both sell out their stadiums.

For what its worth - A money game is a game where the team does not return the visit. We had TWO of these this year: OU and Arkansas:

09/01 at #8 Oklahoma L 79-10

09/08 at SMU L 45-31

09/22 FAU L 30-20

09/29 at Arkansas L 66-7

10/06 at La Lafayette L 38-29

10/13 ULMONROE W 31-21

10/20 at Troy L 45-7

10/27 M Tenn St L 48-28

11/10 Navy L 74-62

11/15 at Arkansas St L 31-27

11/24 W Kentucky W 27-26

12/01 at Fla Int'l 7:00 PM

Take a look at LAST year (2006): ONE money game: Texas

September 2 at No. 3 Texas L 56-7 0-1 (0-0)

September 9 Southern Methodist W 24-6 1-1 (0-0)

September 16 at Tulsa L 28-3 1-2 (0-0)

September 23 at Akron L 33-13 1-3 (0-0)

September 30 Middle Tennessee L 35-0 1-4 (0-1)

October 7 Florida International W 25-22 2-4 (1-1)

October 21 at Arkansas State L 29-10 2-5 (1-2)

October 28 at Troy L 14-6 2-6 (1-3)

November 4 Louisiana Tech L 34-31 2-7 (1-3)

November 11 at Louisiana-Lafayette W 16-7 3-7 (2-3)

November 18 Florida Atlantic L 17-16 3-8 (2-4)

November 25 at Louisiana-Monroe L 23-3 3-9 (2-5)

And the year before (2005): Again - only TWO money games: Kansas State and LSU

September 10 at Middle Tennessee W 14-7 1-0 (1-0)

September 17 Tulsa L 54-2 1-1 (1-0)

September 24 at Kansas State L 54-7 1-2 (1-0)

October 4 Troy L 13-10 1-3 (1-1)

October 15 at Florida International W 13-10 2-3 (2-1)

October 22 at Louisiana Tech L 40-14 2-4 (2-1)

October 29 Louisiana-Monroe Postponed -

October 29 at No. 7 LSU L 56-3 2-5 (2-1)

November 5 Louisiana-Lafayette L 31-28 2-6 (2-2)

November 12 at Florida Atlantic L 26-23 2-7 (2-3)

November 19 Louisiana-Monroe L 24-19 2-8 (2-4)

November 26 Arkansas State L 31-24 2-9 (2-5)

And the year before (2004): Again - only TWO money games: Texas and Colorado

September 4 at No. 8 Texas L 65-0 0-1 (0-0)

September 11 Florida Atlantic L 20-13 0-2 (0-0)

September 18 at Colorado L 52-21 0-3 (0-0)

September 25 at Baylor L 37-14 0-4 (0-0)

October 2 Middle Tennessee W 30-21 1-4 (1-0)

October 9 at Utah State W 31-23 2-4 (2-0)

October 23 New Mexico State W 36-26 3-4 (3-0)

October 30 Louisiana-Monroe W 45-30 4-4 (4-0)

November 5 at Louisiana-Lafayette W 27-17 5-4 (5-0)

November 13 Idaho W 51-29 6-4 (6-0)

November 18 at Arkansas State W 31-7 7-4 (7-0)

And 2003: OU and Arkansas (Baylor was a series and Air Force was supposed to be a series but they were replaced by NAVY this year at Fouts)

August 30 at No. 3 Oklahoma L 37-3 0-1 (0-0)

September 6 Baylor W 52-14 1-1 (0-0)

September 13 at Air Force L 34-21 1-2 (0-0)

September 20 at Arkansas L 31-7 1-3 (0-0)

September 27 Louisiana-Lafayette W 44-23 2-3 (1-0)

October 11 at Idaho W 24-14 3-3 (2-0)

October 18 Utah State W 37-27 4-3 (3-0)

October 25 at Middle Tennessee W 33-28 5-3 (4-0)

October 30 Troy W 21-0 6-3 (4-0)

November 8 at Louisiana-Monroe W 28-26 7-3 (5-0)

November 15 Arkansas State W 58-14 8-3 (6-0)

November 25 at New Mexico State W 13-10 9-3 (7-0)

How about 2002? Which so happened to be the year of our bowl win, RV didn't make that schedule, it was made by Helwig... So, yes - there were three money games but there was originally FOUR and RV got out of one of them so that we could add a IAA (Nicholls State)... Again - the money games - Texas, Bama, and Arizona (a game that we should have won) ... The TCU game was part of a home and home series. The South Florida game was a home and home series. The Cinci game was a bowl game.

August 31 at No. 9 Texas L 27-0 0-1 (0-0)

September 7 Nicholls State W 23-0 1-1 (0-0)

September 14 at Alabama L 33-7 1-2 (0-0)

September 21 at TCU L 16-10 1-3 (0-0)

September 28 at Arizona L 14-9 1-4 (0-0)

October 5 South Florida L 24-17 1-5 (0-0)

October 19 at Arkansas State W 13-10 2-5 (1-0)

October 26 at Louisiana-Lafayette W 27-0 3-5 (2-0)

November 2 Louisiana-Monroe W 41-2 4-5 (3-0)

November 9 Idaho W 10-0 5-5 (4-0)

November 16 New Mexico State W 38-27 6-5 (5-0)

November 23 at Middle Tennessee W 30-20 7-5 (6-0)

December 17 vs Cincinnati W 24-19 8-5 (6-0)

And as for 2001, who cares... RV was in his first year here and didn't make the schedule... you all get the point. I just hate it when people accuse RV of not living up to his word. Dickey was the worst about it, constantly complaining about how "tough" his schedules were. Well folks, when you are in the Belt - you have 8 winnable games EVERY SINGLE YEAR. Last year we bit the bullet and only took on ONE money game, Texas... and look at the cream puff schedule that Dickey couldn't win in - freaking Akron, Tulsa, La Tech, and one that we did win - SMU. When RV got here, he was asked to PLEASE schedule some regional rivalry games... Look at the past 7 years: SMU, Tulsa, La Tech, TCU, Baylor - all on the schedule. We have Rice and Houston back on the schedule for the future and our Tulsa series is being renewed. I just don't get what the hell people are bitching about. These schedules are very winnable schedules. We have 8 Sun Belt games a year and we can compete with every single team in the conference.

[TIgreen01]

It is funny how people have selective memories when it comes to promises. RV stated that we would no longer pile on 4-5 money games a year. He also stated that he WOULD get that number down to TWO rather then FIVE. He has kept his word. .....

....And as for 2001, who cares... RV was in his first year here and didn't make the schedule... you all get the point. I just hate it when people accuse RV of not living up to his word. Dickey was the worst about it, constantly complaining about how "tough" his schedules were. Well folks, when you are in the Belt - you have 8 winnable games EVERY SINGLE YEAR. Last year we bit the bullet and only took on ONE money game, Texas... and look at the cream puff schedule that Dickey couldn't win in - freaking Akron, Tulsa, La Tech, and one that we did win - SMU. When RV got here, he was asked to PLEASE schedule some regional rivalry games... Look at the past 7 years: SMU, Tulsa, La Tech, TCU, Baylor - all on the schedule. We have Rice and Houston back on the schedule for the future and our Tulsa series is being renewed. I just don't get what the hell people are bitching about. These schedules are very winnable schedules. We have 8 Sun Belt games a year and we can compete with every single team in the conference.

Maybe came on a tad strong with my wording there...didn't really intend to attack RV, though I realize after re-reading that it probably came off that way. My main point was that BSU and Hawaii are playing the WORST ranked SOS every year....and they almost never open their season up against the #1 team in the country. It's bit complicated there b/c those are technically regional games for us where that just doesn't exist for BSU or Hawaii....but you get the idea.

I whole-heartedly agree that we needed to do better last year against the weakest schedule we've ever had and think that's what ultimately cost DD his job (doing so poorly against that schedule). This year was going to be tough with Dodge breaking in an entirely new everything, but the record setting blowout loss set his cause WAAAAAAY back before we ever got a chance to get rolling....not to mention the follow up shellacking at Arkansas which derailed the progress we had been making.

I agree that the Belt provides 8 winnable games a year (which is why I said it definitely wasn't hurting us), but you can't start off EVERY season with blowout losses to top 5 ranked teams and expect your fanbase OR your team to maintain optimism. BSU and Hawaii aren't scheduling ridiculous body-bag games (with the expception of Georgia in '05 for BSU), they are scheduling reasonable body bag games (ie. Oregon St.) and are competitive in them....then they play I-AA games---which I hate, but they do it anyways.

ps...where are you pulling your rankings from? Texas in '02 was #2 when we played them and OU in '03 was #1, Texas in '04 was #2 or 3, LSU in '05 was #2. When we played them....but oh well, semantics.....

[PlummMeanGreen]

It is funny how people have selective memories when it comes to promises. RV stated that we would no longer pile on 4-5 money games a year. He also stated that he WOULD get that number down to TWO rather then FIVE. He has kept his word. Now, if you want to do away with these money games completely - you simply increase attendance. RV also did a feasibility study to find out exactly how many fans we needed in the stands to make up for a "money" game and the number was in the area of 26K fans at Fouts. So - if we could average 26K fans a game, we could do away with the money games just like Hawaii and Boise. Guess what Hawaii and Boise have in common? They both sell out their stadiums.

For what its worth - A money game is a game where the team does not return the visit. We had TWO of these this year: OU and Arkansas:

09/01 at #8 Oklahoma L 79-10

09/08 at SMU L 45-31

09/22 FAU L 30-20

09/29 at Arkansas L 66-7

10/06 at La Lafayette L 38-29

10/13 ULMONROE W 31-21

10/20 at Troy L 45-7

10/27 M Tenn St L 48-28

11/10 Navy L 74-62

11/15 at Arkansas St L 31-27

11/24 W Kentucky W 27-26

12/01 at Fla Int'l 7:00 PM

Take a look at LAST year (2006): ONE money game: Texas

September 2 at No. 3 Texas L 56-7 0-1 (0-0)

September 9 Southern Methodist W 24-6 1-1 (0-0)

September 16 at Tulsa L 28-3 1-2 (0-0)

September 23 at Akron L 33-13 1-3 (0-0)

September 30 Middle Tennessee L 35-0 1-4 (0-1)

October 7 Florida International W 25-22 2-4 (1-1)

October 21 at Arkansas State L 29-10 2-5 (1-2)

October 28 at Troy L 14-6 2-6 (1-3)

November 4 Louisiana Tech L 34-31 2-7 (1-3)

November 11 at Louisiana-Lafayette W 16-7 3-7 (2-3)

November 18 Florida Atlantic L 17-16 3-8 (2-4)

November 25 at Louisiana-Monroe L 23-3 3-9 (2-5)

And the year before (2005): Again - only TWO money games: Kansas State and LSU

September 10 at Middle Tennessee W 14-7 1-0 (1-0)

September 17 Tulsa L 54-2 1-1 (1-0)

September 24 at Kansas State L 54-7 1-2 (1-0)

October 4 Troy L 13-10 1-3 (1-1)

October 15 at Florida International W 13-10 2-3 (2-1)

October 22 at Louisiana Tech L 40-14 2-4 (2-1)

October 29 Louisiana-Monroe Postponed -

October 29 at No. 7 LSU L 56-3 2-5 (2-1)

November 5 Louisiana-Lafayette L 31-28 2-6 (2-2)

November 12 at Florida Atlantic L 26-23 2-7 (2-3)

November 19 Louisiana-Monroe L 24-19 2-8 (2-4)

November 26 Arkansas State L 31-24 2-9 (2-5)

And the year before (2004): Again - only TWO money games: Texas and Colorado

September 4 at No. 8 Texas L 65-0 0-1 (0-0)

September 11 Florida Atlantic L 20-13 0-2 (0-0)

September 18 at Colorado L 52-21 0-3 (0-0)

September 25 at Baylor L 37-14 0-4 (0-0)

October 2 Middle Tennessee W 30-21 1-4 (1-0)

October 9 at Utah State W 31-23 2-4 (2-0)

October 23 New Mexico State W 36-26 3-4 (3-0)

October 30 Louisiana-Monroe W 45-30 4-4 (4-0)

November 5 at Louisiana-Lafayette W 27-17 5-4 (5-0)

November 13 Idaho W 51-29 6-4 (6-0)

November 18 at Arkansas State W 31-7 7-4 (7-0)

And 2003: OU and Arkansas (Baylor was a series and Air Force was supposed to be a series but they were replaced by NAVY this year at Fouts)

August 30 at No. 3 Oklahoma L 37-3 0-1 (0-0)

September 6 Baylor W 52-14 1-1 (0-0)

September 13 at Air Force L 34-21 1-2 (0-0)

September 20 at Arkansas L 31-7 1-3 (0-0)

September 27 Louisiana-Lafayette W 44-23 2-3 (1-0)

October 11 at Idaho W 24-14 3-3 (2-0)

October 18 Utah State W 37-27 4-3 (3-0)

October 25 at Middle Tennessee W 33-28 5-3 (4-0)

October 30 Troy W 21-0 6-3 (4-0)

November 8 at Louisiana-Monroe W 28-26 7-3 (5-0)

November 15 Arkansas State W 58-14 8-3 (6-0)

November 25 at New Mexico State W 13-10 9-3 (7-0)

How about 2002? Which so happened to be the year of our bowl win, RV didn't make that schedule, it was made by Helwig... So, yes - there were three money games but there was originally FOUR and RV got out of one of them so that we could add a IAA (Nicholls State)... Again - the money games - Texas, Bama, and Arizona (a game that we should have won) ... The TCU game was part of a home and home series. The South Florida game was a home and home series. The Cinci game was a bowl game.

August 31 at No. 9 Texas L 27-0 0-1 (0-0)

September 7 Nicholls State W 23-0 1-1 (0-0)

September 14 at Alabama L 33-7 1-2 (0-0)

September 21 at TCU L 16-10 1-3 (0-0)

September 28 at Arizona L 14-9 1-4 (0-0)

October 5 South Florida L 24-17 1-5 (0-0)

October 19 at Arkansas State W 13-10 2-5 (1-0)

October 26 at Louisiana-Lafayette W 27-0 3-5 (2-0)

November 2 Louisiana-Monroe W 41-2 4-5 (3-0)

November 9 Idaho W 10-0 5-5 (4-0)

November 16 New Mexico State W 38-27 6-5 (5-0)

November 23 at Middle Tennessee W 30-20 7-5 (6-0)

December 17 vs Cincinnati W 24-19 8-5 (6-0)

And as for 2001, who cares... RV was in his first year here and didn't make the schedule... you all get the point. I just hate it when people accuse RV of not living up to his word. Dickey was the worst about it, constantly complaining about how "tough" his schedules were. Well folks, when you are in the Belt - you have 8 winnable games EVERY SINGLE YEAR. Last year we bit the bullet and only took on ONE money game, Texas... and look at the cream puff schedule that Dickey couldn't win in - freaking Akron, Tulsa, La Tech, and one that we did win - SMU. When RV got here, he was asked to PLEASE schedule some regional rivalry games... Look at the past 7 years: SMU, Tulsa, La Tech, TCU, Baylor - all on the schedule. We have Rice and Houston back on the schedule for the future and our Tulsa series is being renewed. I just don't get what the hell people are bitching about. These schedules are very winnable schedules. We have 8 Sun Belt games a year and we can compete with every single team in the conference.

Great research and some valid points, stebo...Actually, I was saying last year that the WAC should never be an option for UNT until I started looking at the lay of the NCAA D1-A land (and certain regional blocs of Top 25 voters and how they seem to vote in their region.

I think La Tech minor sports teams take a week (pre-planned with all their teachers) and hit 2 or 3 WAC schools in one week in the same western area which saves Bulldog minor varsity sports much in travel costs. In fact, I think La Tech's men & women minor sports varsity teams do this together if I recall reading the La Tech board in the past. So its not like its an individual plane trip to the west for one volleyball game and then back to Ruston. La Tech seems to not be having the financial problems we all predicted they would because of smart WAC travel plans for their minor men & women varsity sports.

With the SBC lost in the shadows of the Big 12, the Southereastern Conference and even CUSA, where will our bloc of voters ever come? I think the WAC has shown us they already get their votes for Top 25 consideration inasmuch as this bowl season, the WAC will probably have its 2'nd BCS Bowl Championship Series appearance and if some don't think that won't help La Tech continue to outrecruit UNT (which it seems they did during DD's entire 9 years in Denton) maybe we can talk about some ocean front property I'll sell real cheap here in Parker County, Texas?

But my main contention is that success against our 8 SBC opponents in the future will do no more for us than get us to a bowl game as an un-ranked football program playing CUSA's 4'th place team every year. I have to ask this question: How many times will CUSA send to the Big Easy a Top 25 ranked 4'th place team?

I also have to ask this question: How many such (un-ranked by both teams) bowl appearances in a row in the Big Easy till our fan base starts to say, "Oh, another bowl game against an almost 2'nd division CUSA football program." whoopee! ? ? ? ? ? ?

These are really the kind of things I feel our UNT leaders need to really look beyond the present and attempt to anticipate what can affect our fan base's interests level for what our Mean Green fan base may not feel is an upward bound (Top 25?) football program in our future if we merely keep doing the same things (and in an un-ranked sort of way).

FWIW..........we have actually already done this before, now haven't we? That is, we've done all this before with a 4 year run of bowl games durng the DD Ball Era with not one of those 4 teams never, ever being even close to a Top 25 ranking. I just cannot buy that Boise State has so many more resources than UNT to allow their (almost decade long) success. They had to have some help--and that is where that western bloc of Top 25 rankings sports writer/voters came in handy for the Broncos; in fact, that bloc of voters came in quite handy for BSU I think we'd all agree.

Edited November 27, 2007 by PlummMeanGreen

[TIgreen01]

Great research and some valid points, stebo...Actually, I was saying last year that the WAC should never be an option for UNT until I started looking at the lay of the NCAA D1-A land (and certain regional blocs of Top 25 voters and how they seem to vote in their region.

With the SBC lost in the shadows of the Big 12, the Southereastern Conference and even CUSA, where will our bloc of voters ever come? I think the WAC has shown us they already get their votes for Top 25 consideration inasmuch as this bowl season, the WAC will probably have its 2'nd BCS Bowl Championship Series appearance and if some don't think that won't help La Tech continue to outrecruit UNT (which it seems they did during DD's entire 9 years in Denton) maybe we can talk about some ocean front property I'll sell real cheap here in Parker County, Texas?

But my main contention is that success against our 8 SBC opponents in the future will do no more for us than get us to a bowl game as an un-ranked football program playing CUSA's 4'th place team every year. I have to ask this question: How many times will CUSA send to the Big Easy a Top 25 ranked 4'th place team?

I also have to ask this question: How many such (un-ranked by both teams) bowl appearances in a row in the Big Easy till our fan base starts to say, "Oh, another bowl game against an almost 2'nd division CUSA football program." whoopee! ? ? ? ? ? ?

You're still missing the point. Do we play in a weak conference? YES. Does BSU play in a weak conference? YES! The key is winning all your winnable games. The SBC does NOT hinder us(any team from the SBC) in getting AP or Coaches or ESPN poll votes....the fact that we have ANY LOSSES AT ALL DOES. BSU and Hawaii have played the TWO weakest schedules in the country. Think that doesn't help them in their quest to complete a perfect season??! If Troy had played the same exact schedule this year (in terms of SOS) do you think they'd be at or near 0 in the loss column? I think they would be....and they'd be a top 15 ranked team to boot.

Edited November 27, 2007 by TIgreen01

[PlummMeanGreen]

You're still missing the point. Do we play in a weak conference? YES. Does BSU play in a weak conference? YES! The key is winning all your winnable games. The SBC does NOT hinder us(any team from the SBC) in getting AP or Coaches or ESPN poll votes....the fact that we have ANY LOSSES AT ALL DOES. BSU and Hawaii have played the TWO weakest schedules in the country. Think that doesn't help them in their quest to complete a perfect season??! If Troy had played the same exact schedule this year (in terms of SOS) do you think they'd be at or near 0 in the loss column? I think they would be....and they'd be a top 15 ranked team to boot.

Would you rather be in a league who has 2 teams in the Top 25 or a league whose champion is having a problem getting beyond 2 votes? Why do we do to ourselves at North Texas what we do to ourselves at North Texas? Anybody got a jar of K-Y?

I don't know how the SBC is going to suddenly over-night get all this newfound respect that some posters see on our horizon. ULM beat a non-ranked Crimson Tide--no points for doing that. Troy U beat a #17 ranked Missouri the night they opened up their stadium and I don't recall them getting many votes for doing that? So where is our bloc of voters for Top 25 ever going to come from? I say it will come from the West and not the Big 12/SEC/CUSA inundated South/Southwest.

When UNT won a bowl game against (now Big East school Cincy') how close did we get to Top 25 then, that is, even after a bowl win? Answer: We didn't even register a blip on on near the Top 25 radar screen would be the answer.

IMO....the SBC is 8-10 years away from getting any bloc of sportswriters to vote for a SBC champion; and that champion of a throw-together league of schools who had nowhere else to go. (Anyone don't think that that description of our league does not have an effect on those sportswriters who would bother to give us the time of day, least of all a Top 25 vote? I don't know how long we of North Texas need to keep ourselves barefoot, pregnant and in the SBC kitchen when there may still be an offer waiting for us on the Western Athletic Conference table. I would agree with GrayEagle One and also say if would be nice to bring 2 other SBC schools with us to form that WAC East along with La Tech, though.

Again.....just my .02

Edited November 27, 2007 by PlummMeanGreen

[TIgreen01]

Would you rather be in a league who has 2 teams in the Top 25 or a league whose champion is having a problem getting past 2 votes? I don't know how the SBC is going to suddenly over-night get all this newfound respect that some posters see on our horizon. ULM beat a non-ranked Crimson Tide--no points for doing that. Troy U beat a #17 ranked Missouri the night they opened up their stadium and I don't recall them getting many votes for doing that? So where is our bloc of voters for Top 25 ever going to come from?

When UNT won a bowl game against (present 3 loss Top 25 school Cincy') how close did we get to Top 25 then? Answer: Not even a blip on on near the Top 25 radar screen.

IMO....the SBC is 8-10 years away from getting any bloc of sportswriters to vote for a SBC champion; and that champion of a throw-together league of schools who had nowhere else to go. (Anyone don't think that that description of our league does not have an effect on those sportswriters who would bother to give us the time of day, least of all a Top 25 vote? I don't know how long we of North Texas need to keep ourselves barefoot, pregnant and in the SBC kitchen when there may still be an offer waiting for us on the Western Athletic Conference table. I would agree with GrayEagle One and also say if would be nice to bring 2 other SBC schools with us to form that WAC East along with La Tech, though.

Again.....just my .02

Troy plays BSU's schedule THIS YEAR and they are a top 15 team. Instead, Troy plays games AT #21 Arkansas, AT #12 Florida, and AT #10 Georgia. That nets them 3 losses. BSU played exactly ONE BCS team this year...AT unranked Washington (who's record sits at 4-8!!) and LOST. Florida Atlantic played games AT Oklahoma St., AT #14 Kentucky, AT #6 South Florida, AT #12 Florida that netted them 4 losses.

Sportswriters didn't care about BSU until they started piling up 10 win seasons against crappy teams. The same goes for Sun Belt teams. The key is NOT LOSING A SINGLE GAME when you are a non-bcs team....conference affiliation doesn't matter in that all non-bcs teams face this same problem.

Edited November 27, 2007 by TIgreen01

[stebo]

You can spell it out as clear as day but he won't see it...

[FirefightnRick]

That's about as clear as it gets for me. Thanks for the info TG.

Rick

[PlummMeanGreen]

Yet every school you list at least has had a Top 25 ranking within the last 5 or so years (except may for Tulsa who may not have). No SBC schools has ever been ranked in the Top 25 as a SBC school. I won't bore yall with the Fry Era since you know it already.

I am merely saying the SBC with its one bowl and who it plays for its bowl opponent (a 4'th place CUSA'er) is hardly going to give us the kind of annual stage that allows us to do what most of the above schools you mentioned in your post, TTG, have done within the past 5 or so years and that is....get a Top 25 ranking.

Tell me (and others) how the SBC is showing present trends of getting a top 25 ranked school anytime soon--like in the next 5-10 years? Do you all want another 30 years of roller-coaster rides like most of us older nestors have had to endure the last previous 30? Well, UNT might very well be the school that can deliver on that since we have (after all) had a great propensity in the past of watching way too many schools we were at one time on the same level pass us by like a ship in the night--our AD's alma mater being just one of that group. Why did they pass us by? Most made bold, sensible moves to better conferences, that's why. Cincinatti who we once beat in a bowl this decade was in a Top 25 poll with 3 losses just last week. Did they get that kind of respect in CUSA? No, they didn't and that because they have a new bloc of voters who will insure the Bearcats a brighter future at the upper level of NCAA D1-A.

Others Who Passed UNT By While We Slept or Fiddle-Farted Our Athletic Program Down the Crapper Can we say most of the former Missouri Valley Conference schools UNT used to be in bed with as part of that group that passed us by? All that group of former Mo Valley schools were all (seemedly) willing to make bold moves for their athletic program while UNT stayed land-locked with the same old problems--rehashed over and over and over again?

BTW...........can we also add to our growing list of schools who went "Beep! Beep! North Texas" football program like South Florida, UCF (and God help us all) possibly in the future FAU and (gulp) FIU to that growing list of schools because that is just what new upstart Florida schools while schools in Texas that have been open for business since 1890 still swim in a lake of molasses?

All these schools who passed UNT by in another era while we kept trying to find our identitiy after 100 plus years of existance; while we concern ourselves with so many damn trivial things such as our need to get the perfect brandings from our chancellor's office of which we can predict changes for those when a new administrative regime takes over once again in Denton; while with every coaching change try to come up with yet another perfect shade of official green for our school; while we argue the merits of what we should have as our school's best inter-locked NT letter combos; and lest we forget.....while we get another annual polishing of what one former AD used to call our t_rd, ie, our venerable and unsinkable Fouts Field?

Is all this what some of you might even want for another 30 years because we won't take bold steps that can upgrade our athletic program? Well--never say never, because we seem to repeat some of our worst of the worst when it comes to too many aspects of our athletic history in Denton.

All this really could very well continue to happen at UNT unless we start hiring more visionaries, ie, true Big Time Thinkers (of which I see our AD, one Mr. Rick V as such) who really do think Mean Green football can be better than what some are so readily and willing to accept for the present no matter how it may cost us in the future? And no, Todd Dodge's 1'st season is still not a fair barometer because for damn sure DD's 1'st 4 seasons were not for him, right?

That's it...over and out.

[emmitt01]

I don't know why you guys try. The only way Plumm is ever going to get off of this ridiculously slanted ride he's on is if Hayden Fry himself shows up on his doorstep with a pie chart made on a lite brite board which outlines all of the things you've been saying ad nauseum. Maybe not even then.

Logic is a worthless currency in this thread.

[CMJ]

Wow Tasty, that was brilliant.

[stebo]

You are banging your head into a wall - I want to point out that the year that Troy beat Missouri - they got 37 votes that week in the coaches poll - despite being a member of the Sun Belt. Obviously it wasn't the conference - it was the win. Once Plumm has an idea, he will continue to preach it - regardless of any logic. I think that we have all just grown to ignore it, I simply skip over his posts and go onto the next one if I see that he is going to say the same thing over again. Plumm is a great North Texas fan, very dedicated - but just doesn't know a whole lot about IA football in general. He respects ceertain people - like Hayden Fry - and if they come out and say something then he will take it as the gospel truth and nobody except Hayden himself could change Jim's mind about his new idea.

Somebody in this thread asked me where I got the rankings for the teams that we played in each schedule - those were the ranking that those teams were at when we teed it up with them, not their end of the season rankings. I just copied and pasted from the ESPN site and that is how they list them. Have a great day everyone, you too Jim - I know that the WAC seems great to you and that La Tech has convinced you that it would be great for us. It just isn't. Why has La Tech been able to pay their travel bills in the WAC? Well, they had all of those Tulsa units from the b-ball tourney that the conference kept after Tulsa abandoned ship. Those units were split between the 5 left over members because the three Sun Belt teams that moved to the WAC did not get any revenue sharing until this year. Also, Boise went to the BCS game and we all got a nice chuck of change for that. The Belt used it to help MTSU go to their bowl game and then equally distributed the rest. NT made $174K off of Boise's visit. Hawaii looks like they might make the game this year for BCS non-auto-qualifiers as well... so we can expect another big fat revenuw sharing check from that. I am not going to type it all up, that is what google is really good for. My research for the year is done.

Just ignore it guys, he will drop it eventually and go back to talking about the stadium. Have a great day guys.

[Green to the Bone]

Let's form a new conference with just us, WKU, Miami, and FIU. We'd win all the conference games, and the fight song would really mean fight song.

Everybody posting on this thread could go in on the rent for a big condo on South Beach. It'd be fun! And as long as we're going to Miami twice anyway, we make it three times by throwing in the Dolphins as a body bag game. Their body bag, that is.

All that makes about as much sense as anything.

[PlummMeanGreen]

I don't know why you guys try. The only way Plumm is ever going to get off of this ridiculously slanted ride he's on is if Hayden Fry himself shows up on his doorstep with a pie chart made on a lite brite board which outlines all of the things you've been saying ad nauseum. Maybe not even then.

Logic is a worthless currency in this thread.

Hayden Fry has already told UNT what it should do: Get out of the Sun Belt Conference. And Emmitt, I really don't expect you and your merry little band of buds to fully understand the fact that there are many on this board who (still) wouldn't trade anything we've seen the last 30 years for those short few years of the Fry Era. I know, you can't go back to the past, but we can ask for more than what we've been getting, can't we? Who said "Ask & You Shall Receive?" Was that Shakespearian? Of course, not...Most of us from the Bible Belt know exactly where that came from. (OK, it's now time for some to get tense with that statement).

Emmitt, you're a baskeball guy, right? Well, is merely winning an SBC basketball championship every so often only to get our heads handed to us in the 1'st Round of the Big Dance always going to do it for you? Uh..............well? I would guess that you would probably say............no. But if UNT fans are not asking for more, than maybe we just won't get more?

If UNT fans are not asking for a better leagues in this time of even more league-shufflings to come (and some of you have been talking up CUSA much, much more than I have this WAC business); yet all the CUSA talk alone tells many (who dare listen) that many from the Mean Green Nation are hardly content with SBC membership.

Yet did playing Western Kentucky the other night make any of you beat your chest and say: Man, I'm so glad we are in the Sun Belt Conference with such schools? Hell, we had their coach (on our Texas turf) telling Coach Dodge to get "OUR" team off the freakin' football field. Does that rowl any of you up like it did me? FWIW....... that WKU coach deseved a good ol' fashioned Texas kick in the a$$ truth be known (and sometimes frontier justice still serves a definite purpose yet at the proper time). Whoops! Now I'm saying such things to an officer of the law! Hellbells! I could now very well get my hands slapped (or worse) for what I post on GMG.com! Emmitt, you are a fellow alum, a keeper of the law (which I really do most seriously respect & even worry about you doing that kind of thing truth be known; as I have the same concern for FFR and the Houston FF NT alum); yet, I know we will all one day have reason for common celebration but...

...it is most obvoius that many of us disagree with the WAC as a solution, eh?

What I want is not a selfish thing here, folks, its only what I think will make us all prouder of our school because of what it would give our alma mater moreso the potential to reach higher up on a national NCAA D1-A stage than I really ever think the SBC will ever allow us to do--that's all.

I do love you all because you're all fellow Mean Greeners. Don't always agree now do we, but still the same--it's still all about all Glory to the Green so......

Here's A Mean Green Hug To All! Enjoy It While I'm In The Holiday Spirit! LOL!

PMG

Edited November 27, 2007 by PlummMeanGreen

[CMJ]

I love how PMG didn't address TastyGreek's thorough annihilation of all of his talking points.

[PlummMeanGreen]

I love how PMG didn't address TastyGreek's thorough annihilation of all of his talking points.

Hellsbells, Courtland, TTG's post are too damn long to read!

I guess I really am a simpleton about all this (and please do forgive, but many of us "still" most always listen to Hayden Fry when he throws out a few pearls or gold nuggets of suggestions when it concerns even the UNT of today; after all, this College Football Hall of Famer's track record is still one to admire and who knows, maybe still even listen to)?

But................. if said school (mainly us) that has been playing NCAA D1 football longer than all the Sun Belt schools keeps competing in all this non-ranked lower profile competition, isn't it likely like that we of UNT are going to most always keep ourselves at this level? Was Boise State's move from the (now defunct) Big West to the WAC a positive or a negative move for their program? Even many WKU'ers thought the MAC would be a better football conference for them as I read their forum the last 2 years. The SBC just seems to still have the reputation of being the Last Stop Gas Station before we hit the desert.

OK, if Troy U wins its bowl game against the 4'th place (?) CUSA Memphis Tigers, do any of you seriously really expect the Trojans to go from getting just a few mere poll votes from said voters then zoom all the way to a Top 25 ranking? If this were to actually (amazingly) occur, my apologies to all for forcing each of you to read this WAC thread with my Mean Green squirt gun pointed at your heads (and if this were to occurr, then WAC talk is over forever for this alum and its back to bloom where planted once again).

Folks (again) I am merely looking at trends at the polls in each region, and I just don't sense very good, upwardly mobile or positive trends for the Sun Belt Conference and the region its located any time soon. Oh, maybe in another 10 or so years it will happen for the Belt, but what else could UNT be doing in those 10 long years that would improve our own athletic product much quicker?

Can we just hope or dream that UNT could start escalating its own athletic endeavors as most all the upstart Florida schools seem to do or is that too much to ask for?

Edited November 27, 2007 by PlummMeanGreen

[CMJ]

Hellsbells, Courtland, TTG's post are too damn long to read!

Now you know what it's like for us in regards to you my friend.

OK, if Troy U wins its bowl game against the 4'th place (?) CUSA Memphis Tigers, do any of you seriously really expect the Trojans to go from getting just a few mere poll votes from said voters then zoom all the way to a Top 25 ranking? If this were to actually (amazingly) occur, my apologies to all for forcing each of you to read this WAC thread with my Mean Green squirt gun pointed at your heads (and if this were to occurr, then WAC talk is over forever for this alum and its back to bloom where planted once again).

Let me find Tasty's comments on said matter.

THE MAGICAL, FOOLPROOF FORMULA TO FINISH RANKED IN THE AP TOP 25 (For any team not blessed with a BCS Auto Bid Conference Affiliation):

1) Finish with double digit wins

2) Win your bowl game

So Troy may or may not finish in the Top 25 using that logic because they would indeed have 10 wins, but 3 losses hurts their cause as Tasty also pointed out here.

2002: North Texas finished the season with an 8-5 record and one Top 25 vote. The same number received by Fresno State, which finished with a 9-5 record and a bowl win over Georgia Tech. That's one less vote than Hawaii and Air Force received in 2002, and their records were 10-4 and 8-5, respectively. Yes, you read that right... Hawaii found that the mighty WAC association, plus a double digit tally in the win column, was worth... 1 MORE AP VOTE than lil' old North Texas received for finishing 8-5 with a win over a CUSA opponent in the piddling New Orleans Bowl. And Fresno State, despite a superior record, a bowl win over a BCS team, and the mighty WAC association received... exactly the same number of AP votes that North Texas did.

There's alot of other great info in there Plumm - take a look.

[PlummMeanGreen]

OK, I guess I then need to ask those of you who are undying loyalist to Wright Waters and the SBC (of course, the SBC or its level of competition is the only athletic co-existance some of you have known; in fact, may ever know at this rate of acceptance of Bottom 25 football and who wants to say that is not what we've had for the last 9-10 years and even beyond)?

BUT..........someone please tell me why the SBC is such a wonderful home for UNT? And stebo, especially you since you seem to have been promoting Troy U all the time (and they have been worth promoting albeit they have passed us by for the moment). Of course, you said you weren't reading this thread anymore as you were making your last post, too, so I guess you won't see this, either. :blink:

And BTW, lets not use the SBC versus CUSA comparison because they haven't been frequent (and long-staying) Top 25'ers themselves in recent years. Rather, lets use the SBC toward non-BCS leagues who have had Top 25 teams the last 7 to 8 years, and you can start with the WAC.

If someone can give me some ample reasons why the SBC is such an up & comer league that will get Top 25 ranked teams in the next 10 years compared to those who have been in existence and have Top 25 teams to already showcase, thenI will be all ears and listen attentively. Bet others on this board might want to hear from other anti-WAC'kers since it seems the same ones mostly responding to WAC talk and............I'll gladly pass the torch to whoever wants a future in the WAC and there have been those the last year on this forum. (Where the hell are you now)? LOL!

ADDENDUM: TTG, we most definitley played those CUSA teams no matter how they finished out their CUSA seasons, but I think the NO's Bowl is actually has a contract that says the NO's Bowl will have the "4'th place" CUSA team for the SBC champion. We have lucked out (if you want to call it that since we sorta' got schooled last time we played in a bowl versus Southern Miss); but we have lucked out inasmuch as we have not had to go as far down as the "4'th place CUSA team as of yet.

Also, if CUSA's champion is not ranked, I suppose we could agree that their 2'nd and 3'rd place teams would also fit the same criteria as their champion, right; that is, being unranked? (I'm stumbling over the simplicity of it all here).

Edited November 27, 2007 by PlummMeanGreen

[Quoner]

If someone can give me some ample reasons why the SBC is such an up & comer league compared to those who have been in existence and have Top 25 teams to showcase, I will be all ears. Bet others on this board will to since it seems the same ones mostly responding to WAC talk.

/Serious

People are not responding because you are ignoring the facts being pushed back at you and making sweeping generalizations based on their responses without addressing the facts thrown back at you. As long as this continues, most people see responding or offering commentary as a waste of time.

I'm staying out of this, but if call for a real debate, you have to listen to more than one sentence in their answer. I know you get mad when people do it to you.

/End serious

Good luck with this debate, everybody! I'm off to go make sweet, sweet love to Wright Waters in my SBC #1 unitard!

[Green Lantern]

TTG...Really good stuff in this thread. Let me just say that I agree with what you have posted in regards to W's & L's meaning everything as far as a top 25 ranking is concerned. The SBC is not the problem in terms of rankings. Attendance, maybe...but not as far as the rankings go.

I truly feel that if North Texas had beaten Memphis in 2003 that we would have had a legitimate shot at being ranked in the final poll. That's why I was so pissed at NT's terrible effort in that bowl game. It was our "Golden Opportunity" to break out of the crappy mid major mold, and at the same time help "Put the SBC on the map" and we squandered it. We've been paying for that ever since imo.

I also feel that if Troy takes care of business against FAU and then Memphis, that they will be the first SBC team to achieve a Top 25 ranking.

[PlummMeanGreen]

There have been many generalizations made by many, but no one wants to seem to want to step out and say: The SBC (unranked and not likely to be any time soon) is where we need to hang our hats for the next decade or so--Top 25 or no Top 25.

I think some have started their own thread within a thread to be honest, because all I've tried to stick to is what the thread title pretty well says: you know, "WAC has had 2 in top 25, one BCS Championship Bowl Game winner and now has 2 in the Top 25 (or pretty close to that). I didn't realize we had so many who didn't want to see our school improve itself.

For you who think Bottom 25 is the wave of our future, you probably will also get your wishes while UNT stays put "SBC-Style" and we watch another host of schools pass us right by.

You who have not been around to experience the passing parade of schools who have passed UNT by the last 4 decades while we stay the same (or less) can post all your theories till the cows come home, but you have not lived the frustration of having witnessed all this as UNT students and UNT alums as many of us have. Trust me, if this is what some of you get the next 30 years in Mean Green Country, then you may just kick your own ass for having made UNT athletics some kind of religion or something, because I for damn sure have been kicking my own for doing such of late.

BUT........FWIW............I still think Todd Dodge is the kind of coach, disciplinarian and human being who can get the Mean Green back to the Glory Days--or at least what many of us call the Glory Days (which included Top 20 rankings and wins over schools who would have been bowl teams had their been as many back in the 1970's).

PS: Sorry, guys, I'm not going to get in on WAC talk turned Playboy Channel.

Edited November 27, 2007 by PlummMeanGreen

[Eagle1855]

I truly feel that if North Texas had beaten Memphis in 2003 that we would have had a legitimate shot at being ranked in the final poll. That's why I was so pissed at NT's terrible effort in that bowl game. It was our "Golden Opportunity" to break out of the crappy mid major mold, and at the same time help "Put the SBC on the map" and we squandered it. We've been paying for that ever since imo.

Hey, some teams leave it all on the field, some team's coaches leave it all on Bourbon Street- quite literally- the night before...