Daily Are Saddened By The Upcoming Changes To Fry Street

[Green Mean]

"His point was that anyone can find a Starbucks within a 5 minute drive to and from anywhere in the Metroplex."

We need to turn this point around. We need to ask the question: Why are there so many Starbucks? People like them, that's why. Why wouldn't we have one across from campus? If the masses are flocking to them, why wouldn't we want to have one on Fry Street? Were the masses flocking to the Tomatoe? Nope. I hope the college can eventually buy all of the rundown houses all around that area as well...houses with couches in the front yards...you know the places. Clean the whole area up.

EXACTLY!!! Why is Coke is what it is? Mcdonalds? Gap? Jack in the crack? Sonic? Because people like/love them and they will always go to them because its what they trust. Dont get me wrong I would like a lot of nice coffee houses and unique places but whatever it is I want class. I want something to brag about to people that have never been to Denton or UNT.

[CMJ]

EXACTLY!!! Why is Coke is what it is? Mcdonalds? Gap? Jack in the crack? Sonic? Because people like/love them and they will always go to them because its what they trust. Dont get me wrong I would like a lot of nice coffee houses and unique places but whatever it is I want class. I want something to brag about to people that have never been to Denton or UNT.

And oddly enough when I visit a place I've never been I seek out local places. Why would I on vacation want to eat at a McDonald's, or a Chillis when I can do that anywhere else? I want a place that screams out that location.

Do you goto New York and want to eat at a Burger King? Or New Orleans and goto a Red Lobster? Or Los Angeles and a similar chain? No....at least I sure as hell don't.

[MeanGreenEngineer]

EXACTLY!!! Why is Coke is what it is?

You would greatly help improve the chances of converting people to your viewpoint if you would:

• Stop acting like a confrontational hot head
• Realize reasonable people can agree to disagree
• STOP YELLING AT PEOPLE ZOMGLOLRTFM!!!!111

[Cerebus]

Stop the name calling, and act like civil adults.

I will turn this board around and drive it right back home, I swear I will.

[stebo]

There was a place north of the Tomato where you could get pretty good breakfast on Fry St. when I was a NT. I can't remember the name though!

Wow, old schooler - Jim's Diner... back from the good old days.

[meangreendork]

And oddly enough when I visit a place I've never been I seek out local places. Why would I on vacation want to eat at a McDonald's, or a Chillis when I can do that anywhere else? I want a place that screams out that location.

Do you goto New York and want to eat at a Burger King? Or New Orleans and goto a Red Lobster? Or Los Angeles and a similar chain? No....at least I sure as hell don't.

I'm with you here. The good thing about having Loop 288 is that there are all of the places we're all familiar with there. There's your Starbucks, GAP, Target and whatever familiar big biz stuff you want there. It's also just a few minutes from campus by drive AND also on the Denton bus lines (which are free with UNT id I believe). But, when you hit Fry Street, ideally, there's all of these unique restaurants, bars and shops you won't find anywhere else. I love local places, when I'm in SF or Oakland, I'm not looking for a Chili's, I'm looking for a good, mom-and-pop restaurant or a classy and unique place to eat.

That's what's at risk of being lost. Fry would be great all cleaned up, but in cleaning it up, that doesn't mean you can't have unique local places too.

[Eagle1855]

Wow, old schooler - Jim's Diner... back from the good old days.

dang, there was a Jims in Denton? As in, the same Jim's you can find in the hill country area? I love that place.

Regarding Fry street... CVS is great for college students, especially for those that do not have cars. They can get prescriptions filled (if the UNT pharm doesnt have something), pick up any other meds or personal products they might need, and even develop film all without having to leave campus. Seems like a pretty good thing to me.

Edited January 26, 2007 by Eagle1855

[the real grad88]

dang, there was a Jims in Denton? As in, the same Jim's you can find in the hill country area? I love that place.

Regarding Fry street... CVS is great for college students, especially for those that do not have cars. They can get prescriptions filled (if the UNT pharm doesnt have something), pick up any other meds or personal products they might need, and even develop film all without having to leave campus. Seems like a pretty good thing to me.

There is a reason that even cities are cleaning up those "cultural" areas and putting in codos and NICE loft apartments and such. It attracts real money. Most of the people who visit those kinds of areas are people who have no real money to spend or invest in a local economy--other than buying a drink perhaps...or something else-you can fill in the blanks. When you change the culture of a place, it attracts real money...capital that can raise the entire economic base of the whole region. I can't wait for the day that there is nothing but new and shiny and slick all around the entire campus--from the old Flow hospital at the end of Fry Street...all the way to I 35N and then all the way west pass "concrete city" to the west to the highway. Let it be a statement that UNT is the economic engine of this whole region. Then, maybe we can start getting more corporate donations that we all want...maybe build the stadium. It very well may all be tied together.

[meangreendork]

It seems like there's a fundamental misunderstanding here.

A lot of us that are against the building on Fry Street aren't necessarily against the new construction on Fry Street. I'm sure we all agree it needed a facelift (either through revamping the old buildings or building new ones with old-style facades) and a clean-up. What it sounds like is that those of us against the new construction are against it because it really takes a slashing to the local businesses there. When I originally heard about this, I thought it was a good idea since the old businesses there would get a shot at moving into a new building, attracting more business. Then, that useless former gas-station would go, that empty building in front of the church would go, and the area would keep the unique places but remove alot of excess, unused construction.

That meant a cleaner, safer block to hang out and eat at but without losing some really unique places. The ugly exteriors are gone, the streets cleaned up, the trash removed, unsafe buildings taken out and all those other eyesores removed.

But when I found out it was going to be a replacement of not just the buildings but also the businesses there, then I changed my tune. This means losing some unique restaurants, bars and shops with what's reportedly little chance of them being able to come back to that same area. If they were allowed to come back into the new buildings, then I'd live with the Starbucks and CVS being there also.

I think alot of us "anti-construction" folks aren't against improving the appearance of Fry Street. What we are against is the undercutting of independent and unique hangouts. I can't see a reason why we can't keep the good local places and build new business space on Fry.

Edited January 26, 2007 by meangreendork

[LongJim]

dang, there was a Jims in Denton? As in, the same Jim's you can find in the hill country area? I love that place.

1855: No, it was definitely not related to 'that' Jim's down in the HC.

As a point of reference, I was at UT this summer, and I think Fry can have change similar to what Guadalupe does which is, constant morphing with the big businesses/boxes coming and going (ie: Hasting's came and went while I was there, drugstore opened, etc.) but there will always be an element of 'funk' to it.

There's no reason Fry can't do the same thing. And frankly, it's kind of cool to have a CVS next to a Hole In The Wall, or a Hasting's down from the Scientology headquarters, or a Texas Theatre next to a Catholic church. That is the definition of funk, and what Fry will hopefully become.

[Green Mean]

dang, there was a Jims in Denton? As in, the same Jim's you can find in the hill country area? I love that place.

Regarding Fry street... CVS is great for college students, especially for those that do not have cars. They can get prescriptions filled (if the UNT pharm doesnt have something), pick up any other meds or personal products they might need, and even develop film all without having to leave campus. Seems like a pretty good thing to me.

You're right I did not even realize the people that probably dont have a choice cuz they dont have a care or adequate transportation. I think convenience of something like a CVS would be beneficial. I'm all for the artistic value for fry stree but It needs major facelift with renovation in my honest opinion. I like the 2.99 or 3.99 burger/fries/drink special on tuesdays and their great prices at riprocks in particular...but when you go there...you feel out of place, uncomfy and very low class. I think what we have at the square in general is great....that needs to get expanded with more options and variety in my opinion and go to Fry Street.

[meangreendork]

You're right I did not even realize the people that probably dont have a choice cuz they dont have a care or adequate transportation. I think convenience of something like a CVS would be beneficial. I'm all for the artistic value for fry stree but It needs major facelift with renovation in my honest opinion. I like the 2.99 or 3.99 burger/fries/drink special on tuesdays and their great prices at riprocks in particular...but when you go there...you feel out of place, uncomfy and very low class. I think what we have at the square in general is great....that needs to get expanded with more options and variety in my opinion and go to Fry Street.

But without the antique shops. I'm also pretty much OK with a drug store on Fry. I'm worried that there won't be space for small businesses when this happens, and if there is, then I'll live with big biz being there too.

[Eagle1855]

I can't see a reason why we can't keep the good local places and build new business space on Fry.

well then you aren't looking at it the way a real estate developer looks at it. Quite simply, the location of those local places is worth more than they can afford to keep them there.

Those places are welcome to open up elsewhere, and if the product is great, they will still have plenty of business. The Loophole is one of my favorite restaurants in Denton and it survives just fine without being on Fry Street by providing decent drink specials, and awesome food.

CVS is a great addition to the UNT campus. As is starbucks, because lets face it- some people may not feel comfortable hanging out at some of the locally-owned coffee houses in Denton because they attract a different customer. And there's nothing wrong with that. Both can coexist just fine.

Any development in and around NT is good for NT, which is good for my degree

[meangreendork]

See, I'm against the building, (not that it matters now)...but I don't think a boycott would actually do anything at this point. It'll cause a stir, but I don't know what real good that would do. I'll go back to what I said to my g/f about this a few weeks back, "here's hoping the local places can get the money to open up there soon." This'll probably end up the same way the logo fiasco did, with alot of people just shrugging and moving on after a few months.

Edited January 26, 2007 by meangreendork

[Green Mean]

I'm pro small businesses but we are living in a generation that is very dominated by the corps and the big names. Theres not very many mom and pop places any more in hi level places like the square is and where fry street is etc. Unless if you are a severely established and well off business then its become a generation of the corporation. Not saying its the absolute best thing but thats just what it has become and it will continue to be like that.

[Eagle1855]

This'll probably end up the same way the logo fiasco did, with alot of people just shrugging and moving on after a few months.

well in that case, I hope you are right. In my opinion, the logo thing turned out just fine.

Maybe, just maybe, someone that deals with these things day in and day out knows more about what is going on than those of us that post our opinions while at our respective jobs? Just a thought...

And for the record, I truly hope those places DO open up elsewhere around the campus. I enjoyed the Tomato's pizza.

[meangreendork]

well in that case, I hope you are right. In my opinion, the logo thing turned out just fine.

Maybe, just maybe, someone that deals with these things day in and day out knows more about what is going on than those of us that post our opinions while at our respective jobs? Just a thought...

And for the record, I truly hope those places DO open up elsewhere around the campus. I enjoyed the Tomato's pizza.

The logo thing ended up fine, and it seems we're all either happy with it or at least happy with certain parts. This'll probably be the same way, with hope the uprooted places find somewhere to go (ie: Chopstix, but hopefully in a nicer storefront).

About the big biz thing- yeah, independent businesses are having a hard time establishing themselves these days, much less running afterwards.

[ColoradoEagle]

It seems that CVS is the anchor of this new development, and the "Save Fry Street" organization is wasting everyone's time. Those buildings are coming down one way or another. If they wanted to do something useful they could try to convince United Equities to build a new one on the Oak/Welch side of the block with more space. That way you could have your Starbucks or whatever, but also The Tomato, Mr. Chopsticks, etc. "Save Fry Street" is fighting the wrong battle.

[RETSO]

What UNT and Denton needs is a few nice Bars to be built right next to our new glorious stadium.

And I know just the man to do it......

STEBO..STEBO..STEBO..STEBO..STEBO

[stebo]

What UNT and Denton needs is a few nice Bars to be built right next to our new glorious stadium.

And I know just the man to do it......

STEBO..STEBO..STEBO..STEBO..STEBO

Hey Jeff, the funny thing is - we aren't losing any freaking bars... people just don't know that this is a small part of Fry Street that is coming down and being built back up. The area is getting a facelift on one block. Every single business with the exception of the Tomato was given the first right of refusal to move into the new spot. I believe that Ski and the Tomato have taken them up on the offer and will be moving around the corner into a new building (those developers have that corner drugstore spot pre-sold). The rest of the businesses were given the opportunity to stay, nobody was forced out... even Mr Chopsticks; it is just that their rent would be going up about 300%. For decades the landlords have charged low rent down in that area, much lower than what the building are actually worth... but they did so because they all just lease the "shell" of the building thus leaving them responsible for basically the walls and the ceiling/roof. Any type of repair that needs to be done/improvement that needs to be made falls on to the store/bar owner and they really have nothing to gain from it other then appeasing their customers. Some of the things that I had to deal with - putting in a $30K air conditioning system that is now part of the building. It needed to be done but my landlord sure as hell wasn't going to pay for it. He cut me some slack for improving the building when it came to rent but that is about it. It is like that with EVERYTHING down there - electrical problems, plumbing, EVERYTHING. So when people bash the owners for not keeping up the buildings, don't be so quick to judge, we do our best. College kids want cheap drinks and cheap food, the profit margin is not that high despite all of the crazy rumors out there that you can make a 1000% profit off of a shot of Jaeger, just not true.

Now, if you want to point the finger at anyone - point it to the businesses that have given up and left. They could take their new space and probably have a whole new clientele. While the books might seem tough to balance with the new rent when looking at current income, I think that the new buildings will attract more customers and that the business owners, every single one of them that chooses to leave, will regret their decision once they see a new place come in and thrive in their own spot.... and getting a spot in the Fry Street area is TOUGH, those businesses that are throwing in the towell before even trying it with a new building are giving up the three most important aspects to any successfull business - location, location, location. If I still owned the bar and it was affected by this, I would pay - it would be tough at first - but worth it in the long run.

All of this being said, the nightlife staples that you all love and know - The Tavern, The Garage (Muthers), Side Bar, half of Cool Beans (the developers have acquired half of Cool Beans and from what I have heard, the company that owns that place has chosen NOT to pay the new rent), Riprocks, Lucky Lous, etc.. all of those Denton/Fry Street nightlife spots will be remain. It is just the corner of Fry (where the Tomato is) and the buildings surrounding it that will be affected. And I want to say it one more time - if you want to blame anyone for the "mom and pop" businesses leaving the area - look no further then the owners of those places, they were all given (from what I have been told) - First Right of Refusal for renting the new spots. Not all of them will be placed in the "exact" current spot (like the Tomato) - but they will still be in the same block.

One more thing and then I will shut up - in addition to all of these new buildings for businesses there will now be apartments and condos as part of the development. This means more tax money for the city/area, more customers for the businesses in the Fry Street Area, and fewer drunk drivers on the road. This whole deal is "inconvenient" for a few businesses but for the most part it is a TERRIFIC move for the Fry Street area and for the University of North Texas.

[Stan R]

Stebo- are you sure about the apartments thing? I thought I had heard that there were not going to be any.

[GBarksdale]

Hey Jeff, the funny thing is - we aren't losing any freaking bars... people just don't know that this is a small part of Fry Street that is coming down and being built back up. The area is getting a facelift on one block. Every single business with the exception of the Tomato was given the first right of refusal to move into the new spot. I believe that Ski and the Tomato have taken them up on the offer and will be moving around the corner into a new building (those developers have that corner drugstore spot pre-sold). The rest of the businesses were given the opportunity to stay, nobody was forced out... even Mr Chopsticks; it is just that their rent would be going up about 300%. For decades the landlords have charged low rent down in that area, much lower than what the building are actually worth... but they did so because they all just lease the "shell" of the building thus leaving them responsible for basically the walls and the ceiling/roof. Any type of repair that needs to be done/improvement that needs to be made falls on to the store/bar owner and they really have nothing to gain from it other then appeasing their customers. Some of the things that I had to deal with - putting in a $30K air conditioning system that is now part of the building. It needed to be done but my landlord sure as hell wasn't going to pay for it. He cut me some slack for improving the building when it came to rent but that is about it. It is like that with EVERYTHING down there - electrical problems, plumbing, EVERYTHING. So when people bash the owners for not keeping up the buildings, don't be so quick to judge, we do our best. College kids want cheap drinks and cheap food, the profit margin is not that high despite all of the crazy rumors out there that you can make a 1000% profit off of a shot of Jaeger, just not true.

Now, if you want to point the finger at anyone - point it to the businesses that have given up and left. They could take their new space and probably have a whole new clientele. While the books might seem tough to balance with the new rent when looking at current income, I think that the new buildings will attract more customers and that the business owners, every single one of them that chooses to leave, will regret their decision once they see a new place come in and thrive in their own spot.... and getting a spot in the Fry Street area is TOUGH, those businesses that are throwing in the towell before even trying it with a new building are giving up the three most important aspects to any successfull business - location, location, location. If I still owned the bar and it was affected by this, I would pay - it would be tough at first - but worth it in the long run.

All of this being said, the nightlife staples that you all love and know - The Tavern, The Garage (Muthers), Side Bar, half of Cool Beans (the developers have acquired half of Cool Beans and from what I have heard, the company that owns that place has chosen NOT to pay the new rent), Riprocks, Lucky Lous, etc.. all of those Denton/Fry Street nightlife spots will be remain. It is just the corner of Fry (where the Tomato is) and the buildings surrounding it that will be affected. And I want to say it one more time - if you want to blame anyone for the "mom and pop" businesses leaving the area - look no further then the owners of those places, they were all given (from what I have been told) - First Right of Refusal for renting the new spots. Not all of them will be placed in the "exact" current spot (like the Tomato) - but they will still be in the same block.

One more thing and then I will shut up - in addition to all of these new buildings for businesses there will now be apartments and condos as part of the development. This means more tax money for the city/area, more customers for the businesses in the Fry Street Area, and fewer drunk drivers on the road. This whole deal is "inconvenient" for a few businesses but for the most part it is a TERRIFIC move for the Fry Street area and for the University of North Texas.

Thanks for this post. BTW, sorry if this is old news, but what bar did you own there?

[Green Mean]

Stebo- are you sure about the apartments thing? I thought I had heard that there were not going to be any.

Not sure if there will be apts in that location but I know that a lot of housing developments are expected in the next 10-20 yrs because the size of the downtown is supposed to triple or quadruple the last time i read about it in the papers last year. I may be wrong but I thought I read that housing is coming in that specific area. I could be wrong though.

[BonfireBrian]

I think there should be a good North Texas sports bar there on Fry Street. Something with good food and a place to watch the game. What do ya'll think?

[stebo]

Stebo- are you sure about the apartments thing? I thought I had heard that there were not going to be any.

Unless something has changed, the condos/aprtments are still a "go"... the last plans that I heard about (from one of my friends that still owns a bar in the area) - the development group is supposedly making the corner building as tall as a 4 story building (originally they had looked at a building as high as 8 stories but the parking could not be worked through). The bottom half will be business/retail space and the top will be apartments/condos. Has this been scratched? I have no idea - that update was from last football season.

And GBarksdale, I opened the Tavern in 1995 (acquired the building in 1994) and ran it until May of 2001 when I sold it to my manager and a friend of his. They run it still and overall we have been both very successful in that spot. When I owned the bar, we were in the top 5 for sales tax receipts (relating to alcohol purchases) and we have gotten as high as #2 in some months. The bar remains to be very popular and succesfull to this day. Most of the profit started when two things happened- we petitioned the city for an election allowing bars to stay opne until 2 a.m. and the measure passed with about 67% support... AND we added a private club to the bar so that we could sell mixed beverages. Both events came about in or around 1998; before that we were beer and wine only and it was tough to pay the bills. Last election (mid-term), the city of Denton voted to do away with private clubs and sell mixed drinks by the glass and it passed by a high margin yet again - this will make it even easier for the bars to thrive.... now (or the next time they renew their licenses) they can get deliveries of mixed beverages as well as do away with those silly unicard obligations.

Edited January 26, 2007 by stebo