It Is Time To Begin The Next Coach Discussion

[Green Mean]

"find" all available coaches who will be willing to accept this position

Apparently I hear there are a ton of COLLEGE coaches that are striving to become a head coach. I dont know....just my thought.

[Tramp96]

1. You have to give a coach enough time to get his recruiting classes to upperclassmen before you can really judge. Best I can tell, Dodge's first recruiting class are true sophomores. Yeah, that's a good enough talent pool to judge a coach on (please note my sarcasm here).

2. If you did do the stupid thing of firing a coach after only two years at a place that has argueably the worst stadium in all of Division I football, who the hell do you think would WANT to replace him? You are sending a message that you not only are you going to pay him one of the lowest salaries in all of college football, but on top of that you expect him to win in year two at the hardest place to recruit to in Div 1 football? Come on people....that is simply not realistic, and you will never sell your program to a prospective coach with that type of unreal expectation.

No, the answer is you give Dodge four years minimum. In my opinion, you give him three years BEYOND THE COMPLETION OF THE NEW STADIUM to really judge him. If he can't recruit and win with the new stadium, fine, can his ass. But you're paying him a year what some some college coaches make in a couple of months and asking him to recruit to a less-than-high-school quality stadium. I think you should give him more than 2 years before you judge him.

[Censored by Laurie]

You've set the bar pretty high for apologies...rcade may be no RV but I think he deserves atleast 3 paragraphs.

[eulessismore]

You know, when Mack Brown was at North Carolina he won exactly two games his first two seasons. Season three he went 6-4-1. Season four 7-4. And season five 9-3 and on to win a bowl game.

Brown is heralded as a great recruiter. I've heard Dodge is pretty good at it too. So to wait 3 seasons or honestly in our case 4 for things to really start coming about is not much to ask.

I had thought about bringing up that "sophomore slump", after having used "collegefootballdatawarehouse" to check out the records of some coaches, and noticing that there is are many coaches with worse second than first year records, but didn't want to mention that possibility for a coach who was coming off a 2 win season. Not only did Fry have a worse record his second season, but so did our last 2 coaches before Dodge, Matt Simon and Darrell Dickey.

Just for grins, I looked up the COMPLETE coaching records for those coaching FBS in this area (Briles at Baylor, Jones at SMU, and Patterson at TCU), and all but Gary Patterson did worse in their second than first years. For all the fuss SMU fans made about the turnaround Jones achieved at Hawaii in his first year there (and in college football), he only won 3 games the next year.

Without making a scientific study of this, it seems like that the "sophomore slump" may be more than an insignificant phenomena among college coaches. I think it's strong enough of a trend that someone might find some potential explanation, such as the previous coach may have had less success in recruiting towards the end of his tenure at a school; please do not think I'm slamming any players recruited by Dickey, of which there were and still are plenty of good ones, I've just wondered about any possible cause for this "sophomore problem".

[shaft]

I refuse to let the coach not be held accountable for their second season because of a "sophomore slump."

1. I question the statistical validity that a sophomore slump exist (show me the first three seasons of every current head coach, and the previous set of head coach).

2. I don't have the stomach for the worst season in school history (0-12 or 1-11 season)

I think the Dodge apologist on this board need to look at the excuses being made for this season.

I saw improvement out there today

I didn't. And the score and stats didn't reflect any improvement.

It's Dickey's fault.

Dickey managed to win 5 games with the same players and get an OOC win over SMU.

The players aren't that good.

How are these guys any different than the types of players that have always come here? And I thought Dodge was this awesome recruiter?

The school doesn't support the team

How is the level of support different than what Dickey or Simon received?

Fouts Sucks

Fouts sucked for the other coaches too.

[Green Mean]

I refuse to let the coach not be held accountable for their second season because of a "sophomore slump."

1. I question the statistical validity that a sophomore slump exist (show me the first three seasons of every current head coach, and the previous set of head coach).

2. I don't have the stomach for the worst season in school history (0-12 or 1-11 season)

I think the Dodge apologist on this board need to look at the excuses being made for this season.

I saw improvement out there today

I didn't. And the score and stats didn't reflect any improvement.

It's Dickey's fault.

Dickey managed to win 5 games with the same players and get an OOC win over SMU.

The players aren't that good.

How are these guys any different than the types of players that have always come here? And I thought Dodge was this awesome recruiter?

The school doesn't support the team

How is the level of support different than what Dickey or Simon received?

Fouts Sucks

Fouts sucked for the other coaches too.

All good points in my opinion. He needs to be held accountable. I am pulling for him as I think it would be a great story coming out of high school but giving him excuses after 18 games of total blowouts for the most part is really stretching.

[Tramp96]

Shaft-

I ask again...

If you are going to fire a coach after only TWO years who is making one of the lowest salaries in all of college football and has the worst D-1 stadium to recruit to, and whose first recruiting class are only TRUE SOPHOMORES, then who on earth do you think would be crazy or stupid enough to want to come here when you obviously have such unreal expectations??

The answer: NO ONE

You don't fire a man in the above situation after only two years if you want to have any hope of attracting ANYONE with any amount of talent or experience. No one will want to come head up a program that's only going to give him two years, the lowest salary in college football, and the worst place to recruit to.

Your expectations are unrealistic and frankly ignorant.

[GoMeanGreen1999]

Shaft-

I ask again...

If you are going to fire a coach after only TWO years who is making one of the lowest salaries in all of college football and has the worst D-1 stadium to recruit to, and whose first recruiting class are only TRUE SOPHOMORES, then who on earth do you think would be crazy or stupid enough to want to come here when you obviously have such unreal expectations??

The answer: NO ONE

You don't fire a man in the above situation after only two years if you want to have any hope of attracting ANYONE with any amount of talent or experience. No one will want to come head up a program that's only going to give him two years, the lowest salary in college football, and the worst place to recruit to.

Your expectations are unrealistic and frankly ignorant.

I would tend to agree with your statement about only being 2 years, but trust me, there are PLENTY of D1AA and D2 coaches that would LOVE a shot at a D1 school and the money being paid to Dodge right now is more than many of them make currently. I am not for getting rid of Dodge at this point, but there are plenty that would come here.

Edited October 13, 2008 by GoMeanGreen1999

[Tramp96]

I would tend to agree with your statement about only being 2 years, but trust me, there are PLENTY of D1AA and D2 coaches that would LOVE a shot at a D1 school and the money being paid to Dodge right now is more than many of them make currently. I am not for getting rid of Dodge at this point, but there are plenty that would come here.

Not if you have shown that you have no patience to allow them enough time to recruit to their system and build their program. You fire a coach after two years and the list of potential candidates willing to come to your school gets cut in half or worse.

Two years at that salary isn't enticing.

[Mean Green 93-98]

To be honest, I don't see all that many posters making excuses for Dodge. There really are no excuses at this point. That said, I think he gets the third year regardless to show that he can turn things around. I don't know that he can, but I don't know that he can't either. No one will if he is not at least given the opportunity.

[GoMeanGreen1999]

To be honest, I don't see all that many posters making excuses for Dodge. There really are no excuses at this point. That said, I think he gets the third year regardless to show that he can turn things around. I don't know that he can, but I don't know that he can't either. No one will if he is not at least given the opportunity.

unless something goes terribly wrong, he will get at least 4 years.

[NT80]

http://collegefootball.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=862495

[Green Guy Bass]

I think Todd really needs to swallow some of his pride, and tweak his offensive system. What might have worked at the HS level is not in D1 NCAA football. Defensive coordinators can and often do eat it for lunch. Until he utilizies a tight end and has some decent run packages where....oh...I dunno....the QB takes a snap from under center and we have more than one back in the backfield at times, then he will never have his offense truly thrive at this level. Way too one dimensional right now. I also question his ability to mesh with the other coaches on his staff at this point.

You can give him the rest of the season and another recruiting class, but if this thing goes winless (which is a very real possibility) there is no excuse to let him get to conference action next season if we go winless yet again in OOC play. Stadium vote or no stadium vote.

Edited October 14, 2008 by Green Guy Bass

[NTPoonKing]

+1 GG Bass.

While many of you have heard this or that, or have inside information-I have heard almost the entire coaching staff appears to be in over its head. There is disgust among former players and strong supporters of the program. And while the talent level is not very high-there is certainly enough talent there to win 2-3 ballgames.

Let there be no doubt-Coach Dodge will have to make several more coaching changes after the season. It is also imperative NT wins at least one game this year-for many reasons. At this point, I have my doubts. In addition-has anyone thought of the recruiting consequences for this year? Not a pretty sight.

NT needs to HEAVILY recruit JUCO defensive players as well as OLineman. Dodge needs to be contacting them now.

[greenminer]

Shaft-

I ask again...

If you are going to fire a coach after only TWO years who is making one of the lowest salaries in all of college football and has the worst D-1 stadium to recruit to, and whose first recruiting class are only TRUE SOPHOMORES, then who on earth do you think would be crazy or stupid enough to want to come here when you obviously have such unreal expectations??

The answer: NO ONE

You don't fire a man in the above situation after only two years if you want to have any hope of attracting ANYONE with any amount of talent or experience. No one will want to come head up a program that's only going to give him two years, the lowest salary in college football, and the worst place to recruit to.

Your expectations are unrealistic and frankly ignorant.

I love counterpoint. Let me throw in my two cents:

Several coaches out there were hired at the same time Dodge was, and are fairing much better. Take a look @ Stanford, for example.

Salary is moot. He's here. We got him. Doing his job? that's what we're debating.

Dodge has chosen to bench players that performed much better than what we're seeing, in favor of these fresh/sophs. I love these young men to death for what they do, so let's realize that it was Dodge's decision to bench players that have a few skins on the wall in favor of youth. And it is showing. After what I have seen thus far, I am wondering if the best players really are on the field?

My expectations? I used to think that coaches needed at least 3 years to build, and I like to think that should still be the case. But, as I've said before, it's becoming such a weak leg to stand on now-a-days because coaches are getting it done in a spiff across the country. Not even the wishbone-to-spread system apology works so much anymore: Todd Graham did wonders at Rice, freakin' Rice! and made them bowl worthy immediately!

I'm not a Dickey apologist or a Dodge hater. I just hope people around here start seeing through the mess and realize how flawed a lot of these arguments have become.

Facilities are moot. We've won here before, we can do it again.

Salary is moot. We've got the one we wanted. Is the man doing his job?

The Buick, love him or hate him, had some skins on the wall under the same or less circumstances.

It was good to see Lance getting some time last week. And also taking at least a couple shots downfield at Roberson. Need more, please, kthanxbuhbye.

[Got5onIt]

+1 GG Bass.

While many of you have heard this or that, or have inside information-I have heard almost the entire coaching staff appears to be in over its head. There is disgust among former players and strong supporters of the program. And while the talent level is not very high-there is certainly enough talent there to win 2-3 ballgames.

Let there be no doubt-Coach Dodge will have to make several more coaching changes after the season. It is also imperative NT wins at least one game this year-for many reasons. At this point, I have my doubts. In addition-has anyone thought of the recruiting consequences for this year? Not a pretty sight.

NT needs to HEAVILY recruit JUCO defensive players as well as OLineman. Dodge needs to be contacting them now.

Good post, even better screen name.

[greenminer]

unless something goes terribly wrong, he will get at least 4 years.

1 FBS win in 18 tries is not terrible?

If we go winless through his third year, 1 FBS win in 36 games is not terrible?

[UNT_playmaker]

A winless 2008 season for our football stadium is not terrible it is catastrophic for team that is trying to rebuild.

The effects being this: Harder to recruit quality players, fan base suffers, and we might lose the stadium vote because of these blowout losses.......

[Tramp96]

Hypothetical questions for all of you impatient doom and gloomers:

1. Would you trade zero wins this year for 9-10 wins, including a bowl victory and a conference championship, in 3-4 years?

2. Would you trade zero wins this year for a possible Top 25 ranking in 5-6 years?

If you have to play younger, less experience players now for a bigger future reward down the road, wouldn't you do it?

[NT80]

Hypothetical questions for all of you impatient doom and gloomers:

1. Would you trade zero wins this year for 9-10 wins, including a bowl victory and a conference championship, in 3-4 years?

2. Would you trade zero wins this year for a possible Top 25 ranking in 5-6 years?

If you have to play younger, less experience players now for a bigger future reward down the road, wouldn't you do it?

There is no guarantee any of that would happen. We could be allowing a 1-11 season to be followed by three more 1-11 seasons. There are already schools firing coaches and/or coordinators who are 3-3. Why should we have to wait 5-6 years for a respectible season? Is it only a money issue or a confidence issue?

The real questions should be: what is an acceptable amount of time to wait; and what improvement should we see during that time? I don't think 2-10 followed by 0-6 is the road any of us want to be on for very long.

[Tramp96]

There is no guarantee any of that would happen. We could be allowing a 1-11 season to be followed by three more 1-11 seasons. There are already schools firing coaches and/or coordinators who are 3-3. Why should we have to wait 5-6 years for a respectible season? Is it only a money issue or a confidence issue?

The real questions should be: what is an acceptable amount of time to wait; and what improvement should we see during that time? I don't think 2-10 followed by 0-6 is the road any of us want to be on for very long.

No, you're right, there is no guarantee. Just like there is no guarantee that if you fire Dodge after only two seasons that you'll find anyone else to come in and magically "fix" the program. Like I said before, once you set the precedent of firing a coach after only two seasons, the list of people willing to come to your program dwindles dramatically, because you have shown you will not have the patience to allow them to build their program.

The hiring of Dodge was a dramatic, and I mean, DRAMATIC, change in football philosophies. When you do a 180 like that, you have to be (1) 100% committed to the new philosophy and (2) take your lumps. We are taking our lumps, with the hope/gamble that it will pay off big down the road. It may not, and that I concede. But you cannot determine that now in the middle of year two. You simply can't.

Let's give the man a real chance first. Two years is not a real chance.

Edited October 14, 2008 by Tramp96

[filmerj]

No, you're right, there is no guarantee. Just like there is no guarantee that if you fire Dodge after only two seasons that you'll find anyone else to come in and magically "fix" the program. Like I said before, once you set the precedent of firing a coach after only two seasons, the list of people willing to come to your program dwindles dramatically, because you have shown you will not have the patience to allow them to build their program.

The hiring of Dodge was a dramatic, and I mean, DRAMATIC, change in football philosophies. When you do a 180 like that, you have to be (1) 100% committed to the new philosophy and (2) take your lumps. We are taking our lumps, with the hope/gamble that it will pay off big down the road. It may not, and that I concede. But you cannot determine that now in the middle of year two. You simply can't.

Let's give the man a real chance first. Two years is not a real chance.

I agree, while it seems he may be too conservative for me at times, and his teams are getting blown out we cant become a revolving door. We need to give him a little more time. I say that now after I have cooled off. But Saturday was still fun. I want to win, I want to win bad... So You can't tell me the guys in the locker room don't want to win. I just can't wait till we are no longer the laughing stock off football. I don't know if todge is the answer but we have to give him time and hope, that if he's not the guy the admins will do the right thing.

Edited October 14, 2008 by filmerj

[TIgreen01]

+1 GG Bass.

While many of you have heard this or that, or have inside information-I have heard almost the entire coaching staff appears to be in over its head. There is disgust among former players and strong supporters of the program. And while the talent level is not very high-there is certainly enough talent there to win 2-3 ballgames.

Let there be no doubt-Coach Dodge will have to make several more coaching changes after the season. It is also imperative NT wins at least one game this year-for many reasons. At this point, I have my doubts. In addition-has anyone thought of the recruiting consequences for this year? Not a pretty sight.

NT needs to HEAVILY recruit JUCO defensive players as well as OLineman. Dodge needs to be contacting them now.

If this is true, why not make some moves now?

[greenminer]

No, you're right, there is no guarantee. Just like there is no guarantee that if you fire Dodge after only two seasons that you'll find anyone else to come in and magically "fix" the program. Like I said before, once you set the precedent of firing a coach after only two seasons, the list of people willing to come to your program dwindles dramatically, because you have shown you will not have the patience to allow them to build their program.

The hiring of Dodge was a dramatic, and I mean, DRAMATIC, change in football philosophies. When you do a 180 like that, you have to be (1) 100% committed to the new philosophy and (2) take your lumps. We are taking our lumps, with the hope/gamble that it will pay off big down the road. It may not, and that I concede. But you cannot determine that now in the middle of year two. You simply can't.

Let's give the man a real chance first. Two years is not a real chance.

How about a guarantee that our head coach have some college head coach skins on the wall? I think that is something within our control.

2 years is a real chance. 1 offseason was good enough for Rice's wishbone-spread changeover.

After 16 games, is it too much to ask for signs of being competitive? I.e., holding a Belt opponent to under 50, or being competitive past the half?

This argument is old and will only end in another dead end. Dodge apologists see things that cannot be quantified. "Realists" (I guess I am under that category?) are being unrealistic.

Good Lord I can't wait for some wins!

[NT80]

No, you're right, there is no guarantee. Just like there is no guarantee that if you fire Dodge after only two seasons that you'll find anyone else to come in and magically "fix" the program. Like I said before, once you set the precedent of firing a coach after only two seasons, the list of people willing to come to your program dwindles dramatically, because you have shown you will not have the patience to allow them to build their program.

The hiring of Dodge was a dramatic, and I mean, DRAMATIC, change in football philosophies. When you do a 180 like that, you have to be (1) 100% committed to the new philosophy and (2) take your lumps. We are taking our lumps, with the hope/gamble that it will pay off big down the road. It may not, and that I concede. But you cannot determine that now in the middle of year two. You simply can't.

Let's give the man a real chance first. Two years is not a real chance.

I agree Dodge needs enough real time to put his playbook and players into gear. But there must also be a cutoff time by which fans can expect to see results. If fans think it'll be more of the same 0-6 for the next three seasons, some will hesitate to make the financial committment until the school does. And some coaches do dramatically fix programs in shorter periods than 4-5 years, but it will usually cost you, and again results are not guaranteed....see Smut's June Jones @ $2 million per year as prime example.