Unreasonable Expectations

[Travis]

TFLF and others, thanks for the great responses. I am starting to get it. If there's a silver lining in this 0-3 start, hopefully it's forcing the coaching staff to recognize their own weaknesses and address them early in the season before we are too far into conference play.

We are glad you are on board. I hope you stick around for awhile.

[PlummMeanGreen]

There will be no real progress in Denton until Todd Dodge gets all his people in the fold. He is merely playing "step-coach" now to players that came from a totally different era of whom our leader from that era had a totally different attitude toward our school (his employer), our alums and the whole concept of discipline--on and off the field. UNT is a better football program due to the fact that most all the aforementioned from that era have taken a 180 degree positive turn; the wins will come later.

[MeanMag]

I know I posted this in another thread, but what are our reasonable expectations?

Which teams left on our schedule can we expect to beat?

Monroe 0-3

FIU 0-4

MTSU 0-4

Lafayette 0-4

WKU D-1AA

Troy?

ASU?

Navy?

Ark.?

[Got5onIt]

After seeing the Toppers knock off MUTS, I wouldn't put any of the upcoming games into the "sure win" category. NT has not earned the right to expect to beat anyone this year.

Anyone save their face covering paper sack from the end of DD's tenure? We may need to dust them off.

[FirefightnRick]

Miami Northwestern is currently #1 because of it's talent! (1st year coach) Cedar Hill loaded up with talent last year and was the best 5A team in the state. Historically, talent and/or a small town one high school team wins championships; it's resources (which translate into better coaching) Not so much because of a great coach.

The Star Telegram printed a survey they did statewide about 7 or 8 years ago in which they asked hundreds of coaches what they felt were the leading factors in having a successful program and the majority said it was Coaching over player talent. For all the current successful programs today, you can point to previous successful programs who are not winning as often due to the loss of their coach. Sure talent is always going to help, and resources as well, but someone has to coordinate them both into wins.

Rick

[Got5onIt]

The Star Telegram printed a survey they did statewide about 7 or 8 years ago in which they asked hundreds of coaches what they felt were the leading factors in having a successful program and the majority said it was Coaching over player talent. For all the current successful programs today, you can point to previous successful programs who are not winning as often due to the loss of their coach. Sure talent is always going to help, and resources as well, but someone has to coordinate them both into wins.

Rick

See Rice for a perfect example of this.

[GoMeanGreen1999]

I know I posted this in another thread, but what are our reasonable expectations?

Which teams left on our schedule can we expect to beat?

Monroe 0-3

FIU 0-4

MTSU 0-4

Lafayette 0-4

WKU D-1AA

Troy?

ASU?

Navy?

Ark.?

I still believe we will turn this thing around and win 5 games. I said before the season started that we would win 5 and I think today will still win 5.

[gangrene]

There will be no real progress in Denton until Todd Dodge gets all his people in the fold. He is merely playing "step-coach" now to players that came from a totally different era of whom our leader from that era had a totally different attitude toward our school (his employer), our alums and the whole concept of discipline--on and off the field. UNT is a better football program due to the fact that most all the aforementioned from that era have taken a 180 degree positive turn; the wins will come later.

Plumm, I have a lot of respect for your undying loyalty to UNT and I can't help but admire your patience, but I sure as hell hope you're dead wrong about many of your timelines. "No real progress in Denton until Todd Dodge gets all his people in the fold?" Playing "step-coach"?? So, are you saying that we shouldn't expect to win more than two games a year until the 2010 season, when all of DD's recruits are finally gone? Or, does this Freshman class not count either because Todge and staff were forced to recruit within a greatly reduced timeframe?

I'm tired of hearing about how these aren't Todge's players, therefore they shouldn't be expected to win. Sure, these players were recruited to run a different style of offense but they are, nonetheless, talented D-1A athletes. They may not be the caliber of athlete that we can expect to see in future classes, but the DD did have a mild reputation for recruiting athletes rather than positions. Our current players have talent and are more than capable of learning and executing new offensive/defensive schemes. Many may find these new schemes highlight their talents better than the run three yards into a pile of dust style better known as Dickeyball. To say that these players can’t perform in Todge’s system is, quite frankly, insulting to the players.

Besides, it’s been proven a possibility in the very recent past when Todd Graham (that a-hole) took over a football program at Rice University that had a 14-game losing streak from 2004-05 and went 1-10 in 2005. Graham was hired in January 2006, and guided Rice to a 7-5 regular season record and took Rice to its first bowl game since 1961, before abandoning his team for Tulsa. And that was accomplished in his first season with players he did not recruit. Oh, and the best part is.....Rice was a running team prior to Graham’s arrival. I’d estimate Rice, under Ken Hatfield’s option offense, ran the ball about 90% of the time, while Graham incorporated a spread very similar to what we currently have. I’m sure Even Fentriss could better explain the similarities.

Edited September 26, 2007 by gangrene

[GoMeanGreen1999]

Besides, it’s been proven a possibility in the very recent past when Todd Graham (that a-hole) took over a football program at Rice University that had a 14-game losing streak from 2004-05 and went 1-10 in 2005. Graham was hired in January 2006, and guided Rice to a 7-5 regular season record and took Rice to its first bowl game since 1961, before abandoning his team for Tulsa. And that was accomplished in his first season with players he did not recruit. Oh, and the best part is.....Rice was a running team prior to Graham’s arrival. I’d estimate Rice, under Ken Hatfield’s option offense, ran the ball about 90% of the time, while Graham incorporated a spread very similar to what we currently have. I’m sure Even Fentriss could better explain the similarities.

I love reading your posts, and I think the Graham situation at Rice is a perfect example, but why do you say that TG is a bad guy? I have read other on here that think the same thing. Is it just because he was down there for one season, made the same promises that most coaches make in "they are staying there" type proclamations? I have to say, I don't exactly agree with what he did, but if I were in the same position and got the pay increase that he did, it would definately be a hard decision for sure.

Edited September 26, 2007 by GoMeanGreen1999

[gangrene]

I love reading your posts, and I think the Graham situation at Rice is a perfect example, but why do you say that TG is a bad guy? I have read other on here that think the same thing. Is it just because he was down there for one season, made the same promises that most coaches make in "they are staying there" type proclamations? I have to say, I don't exactly agree with what he did, but if I were in the same position and got the pay increase that he did, it would definately be a hard decision for sure.

Thanks. I guess it's just the way that Graham handled the whole situation that left a bad taste in my mouth. He renegotiated his contract with Rice (who rewarded him for a successful first season by increasing his salary) and announced his dedication to Rice by stating that he was committed to the kids and the program. Then, the very next week, he took the Tulsa job...leaving Rice high and dry in January. And, several of his recruits followed him to Tulsa. I just thought it was a crappy way to handle the situation.

[SLCoutsider]

I have to say, I don't exactly agree with what he did, but if I were in the same position and got the pay increase that he did, it would definately be a hard decision for sure.

If his wife is anything like mine, he probably didn't have a choice.

[GoMeanGreen1999]

Thanks. I guess it's just the way that Graham handled the whole situation that left a bad taste in my mouth. He renegotiated his contract with Rice (who rewarded him for a successful first season by increasing his salary) and announced his dedication to Rice by stating that he was committed to the kids and the program. Then, the very next week, he took the Tulsa job...leaving Rice high and dry in January. And, several of his recruits followed him to Tulsa. I just thought it was a crappy way to handle the situation.

I can understand that. I don't exactly like the way he left, but I don't agree with 3/4 of the coaches out there and what they do. Saban is a perfect example.

[UNTLifer]

If his wife is anything like mine, he probably didn't have a choice.

Underrated post.

[Green Mean]

One day a man told another feller this......

"Dont ever let good enough be good enough."

This my friends is the advice Bill Parcells told Tony Romo when they were both nude inside a hot tub a few years back(gay?).

I am just saying this that as people we all need to have high expectations in everything....our lives, career, goals, kids, government, etc so why is a school football program different? Its not like we will kill them if they dont win but its good to have expectations....thats what creates innovation, change and evolution.

[Ibleedgreen]

My son-in-law who played football for A&M watched the A&M/La-Monroe game and said the Monroe offense is potent.

[PlummMeanGreen]

Plumm, I have a lot of respect for your undying loyalty to UNT and I can't help but admire your patience, but I sure as hell hope you're dead wrong about many of your timelines. "No real progress in Denton until Todd Dodge gets all his people in the fold?" Playing "step-coach"?? So, are you saying that we shouldn't expect to win more than two games a year until the 2010 season, when all of DD's recruits are finally gone? Or, does this Freshman class not count either because Todge and staff were forced to recruit within a greatly reduced timeframe?

I'm tired of hearing about how these aren't Todge's players, therefore they shouldn't be expected to win. Sure, these players were recruited to run a different style of offense but they are, nonetheless, talented D-1A athletes. They may not be the caliber of athlete that we can expect to see in future classes, but the DD did have a mild reputation for recruiting athletes rather than positions. Our current players have talent and are more than capable of learning and executing new offensive/defensive schemes. Many may find these new schemes highlight their talents better than the run three yards into a pile of dust style better known as Dickeyball. To say that these players can’t perform in Todge’s system is, quite frankly, insulting to the players.

Besides, it’s been proven a possibility in the very recent past when Todd Graham (that a-hole) took over a football program at Rice University that had a 14-game losing streak from 2004-05 and went 1-10 in 2005. Graham was hired in January 2006, and guided Rice to a 7-5 regular season record and took Rice to its first bowl game since 1961, before abandoning his team for Tulsa. And that was accomplished in his first season with players he did not recruit. Oh, and the best part is.....Rice was a running team prior to Graham’s arrival. I’d estimate Rice, under Ken Hatfield’s option offense, ran the ball about 90% of the time, while Graham incorporated a spread very similar to what we currently have. I’m sure Even Fentriss could better explain the similarities.

Never have I said DD left the cupboard completely bare. In fact, I've said he left several good athletes--just not enough of that group; but DD lived off one recruiting class (1998 or 1999, ie, the Booger Kennedy class?) and you cannot live on one good recruiting class forever. In fact, the last 2 years should have shown most of our astute that he (basically) quit recruitiing "enough" good athletes after he and his staff seemedly quit trying to recruit what would even be considered a good Sun Belt Conference class when they didn't get job offers after (probably) the bowl win over Cincinnatti.

Many of us believed DD was mostly a journeyman assistant coach, his resume before UNT showing quite many assistant coach stop-overs before his Kansas State connnection handed over to him our UNT HFC's job practically before Matt Simon hardly had time to pack his boxes to leave. DD's expectations for his future as a NCAA D1-A HFC may have been a tad inflated and his never getting not even one higher profile job interview after 4 bowl games should have been a red flag to some of you (sorry, but his Idaho job interview doesn't count among the higher profile group).

My and many other's light bulbs came on with DD and what his recruiting was producing for our football program when we got pounded at Fouts Field by another Oklahoma team (mainly Tulsa U) in our worst loss in Fouts Field history and then La Tech (who I thought we had been recruiting at least on their level) that same season put the icing on the cake in that disastrous 2005 season; and all this happening right after a run of 4 SBC championships--which included 3 losses to FAU as I recall with that first loss while they were a 1-AA program--BTW, we went to a bowl game after that season we first got beat by a Schnelly 1-AA team).

An NCAA D1-A football team usually gets beat on Game Day not neccessarily based on practice sessions of the week before that game, but moreso what happened on the recruiting trail 3-4 years before any particular Game Day. It will be that way all season this season, too.

Jeez, I hope Todd Dodge is not reading some of these threads in what the Mean Green Radio Network guys even call a honeymoon year for the belatedly hired late December coach. Honeymoon year for those who may need a further interrpretation means you do the best you can with what you inherited both from the previous HFC's recruits and for TDodge, an much improved Sun Belt Conference that looks nothing like the one DD marched thru like Sherman did Atlanta in its first few formative years of schools mostly just out of 1-AA. DD's first above .500 year came in his Year 5 (out of the 8 he spent in Denton).

Yet why all this immediate expectation for Todd Dodge with mostly DD recruits is a question many I know on this board have been discussing well beyond this thread? I suggesested all that immediate expectation maybe even coming from a hardy handful who wanted DD Ball another year or 2 or 3 so he could have completely put this program in the grave and for those who like lots of elbow room at Fouts Field home games, too. For those of you who got too close or befriended Dickey (who in my 2-3 times around the man I found to be mostly pleasant albeit a bit stand'offish); yet some of you should know better since you would know as much as anyone the first big opportunity Darrell Dickey might have had to leave Denton he would have in a New York minute; and FWIW............ he may not have even said goodbye.

I still defer to the below signature for those who feel we should win the SBC in 2007 with the last 3-4 years recruiting classes.

Edited September 27, 2007 by PlummMeanGreen

[MeanMag]

Never have I said DD left the cupboard completely bare. In fact, I've said he left several good athletes--just not enough of that group; but DD lived off one recruiting class (1998 or 1999, ie, the Booger Kennedy class?) and you cannot live on one good recruiting class forever. In fact, the last 2 years should have shown most of our astute that he (basically) quit recruitiing "enough" good athletes after he and his staff seemedly quit trying to recruit what would even be considered a good Sun Belt Conference class when they didn't get job offers after (probably) the bowl win over Cincinnatti.

Many of us believed DD was mostly a journeyman assistant coach, his resume before UNT showing quite many assistant coach stop-overs before his Kansas State connnection handed over to him our UNT HFC's job practically before Matt Simon hardly had time to pack his boxes to leave. DD's expectations for his future as a NCAA D1-A HFC may have been a tad inflated and his never getting not even one higher profile job interview after 4 bowl games should have been a red flag to some of you (sorry, but his Idaho job interview doesn't count among the higher profile group).

My and many other's light bulbs came on with DD and what his recruiting was producing for our football program when we got pounded at Fouts Field by another Oklahoma team (mainly Tulsa U) in our worst loss in Fouts Field history and then La Tech (who I thought we had been recruiting at least on their level) that same season put the icing on the cake in that disastrous 2005 season; and all this happening right after a run of 4 SBC championships--which included 3 losses to FAU as I recall with that first loss while they were a 1-AA program--BTW, we went to a bowl game after that season we first got beat by a Schnelly 1-AA team).

An NCAA D1-A football team usually gets beat on Game Day not neccessarily based on practice sessions of the week before that game, but moreso what happened on the recruiting trail 3-4 years before any particular Game Day. It will be that way all season this season, too.

Jeez, I hope Todd Dodge is not reading some of these threads in what the Mean Green Radio Network guys even call a honeymoon year for the belatedly hired late December coach. Honeymoon year for those who may need a further interrpretation means you do the best you can with what you inherited both from the previous HFC's recruits and for TDodge, an much improved Sun Belt Conference that looks nothing like the one DD marched thru like Sherman did Atlanta in its first few formative years of schools mostly just out of 1-AA. DD's first above .500 year came in his Year 5 (out of the 8 he spent in Denton).

Yet why all this immediate expectation for Todd Dodge with mostly DD recruits is a question many I know on this board have been discussing well beyond this thread? I suggesested all that immediate expectation maybe even coming from a hardy handful who wanted DD Ball another year or 2 or 3 so he could have completely put this program in the grave and for those who like lots of elbow room at Fouts Field home games, too. For those of you who got too close or befriended Dickey (who in my 2-3 times around the man I found to be mostly pleasant albeit a bit stand'offish); yet some of you should know better since you would know as much as anyone the first big opportunity Darrell Dickey might have had to leave Denton he would have in a New York minute; and FWIW............ he may not have even said goodbye.

I still defer to the below signature for those who feel we should win the SBC in 2007 with the last 3-4 years recruiting classes.

Your sig Plumm, seems to suggest that we are either with you, or against you and TDodge. Because I question what a HS DC can do at the college level doesn't mean that I am not giving Dodge enough time. To answer your question, I would give him 4 years. He is definitely livening up our offense, but it just doesn't make sense to have the same defense from last years team and do worse. I don't know what the answer is, but I know that Bliel has got some ideas. Mendoza, IMO, needs to be picking the brain of every college level DC who has had any success at this level. In the first 2 games we weren't putting our defense in position to make plays. In the last game, what hurts most of all is that I had seen a marked improvement in what the defense was doing. They were calling out plays before FAU ran them. It just still wasn't good enough.

I respect the hell out of you plumm, but you can piss in DD wheaties all you want. You can blame him for losing to FAU, a D-1AA team. He won more than he lost that year, and we have more wins in the record books because of it. Dodge hasn't beat FAU either. It's a fact. It doesn't mean I'm giving up on him. Just try to be fair in your judgment of our current players. It is a fair expectation to expect at least the level of production from last years team, plus some. We have too many good athletes and smart guys on this team to settle for a "honeymoon" year. These players against FAU played very, very hard. Harder than I had seen them play for the last 2 years. That is a testament to Dodge's ability to motivate, and the best intangible a coach can have.

All of us here are on the same side, and for you to have that signature suggests that people who post on this board are giving up on him. All of your arguments and problems stem from speculation and reading between the lines of what people are typing. STOP MAKING ASSUMPTIONS. I think your signature is a joke, and you should consider taking it down, because I haven't found one person on this board that has a horribly sinister plan for Todd Dodge after one year. Not ONE person has said they will give him 1 YEAR. Find me just one person who wants Dodge's head at the end of the season. JUST ONE.

I don't think anyone is being unreasonable. To go from middle of the pack defense to DEAD LAST wasn't expected. For our pass offense to go from DEAD LAST to 3rd wasn't expected. So, because our defense is moving not just backwards, but waaay backwards, is a problem for some of us, you think we don't support. It's kind of insulting coming from a guy who has preached we should raise expectations and move the bar up. Todd Dodge said himself that he doesn't want to be involved with a program that doesn't have high expectations. We can be happy our offense is moving the ball and upset that our defense can't stop it. I am very sure the two are not completely dependent on one another.

Edited September 27, 2007 by MeanMag

[untbowler]

I still defer to the below signature for those who feel we should win the SBC in 2007 with the last 3-4 years recruiting classes.

Why should we not expect to win the Sun Belt? As Mean Mag has said we had a good defense last year that is now horrible for one reason or another.. It is disrespectful to claim that we want Dodge out because we expect more, just like you ranted and raved for the past seasons about DD. I think anything less than a 6 win season this year is a disappointment, considering what other coaches have done in similar situations, but again the poor me UNT crap is being thrown out again.

If Rice can go from 1-10 to 7-5 in one season or UCF can do similar in tougher Conferences than the Sun Belt, then why is it we as fans should not expect the same out of Dodge and this year's team.

[gangrene]

Never have I said DD left the cupboard completely bare. In fact, I've said he left several good athletes--just not enough of that group; but DD lived off one recruiting class (1998 or 1999, ie, the Booger Kennedy class?) and you cannot live on one good recruiting class forever. In fact, the last 2 years should have shown most of our astute that he (basically) quit recruitiing "enough" good athletes after he and his staff seemedly quit trying to recruit what would even be considered a good Sun Belt Conference class when they didn't get job offers after (probably) the bowl win over Cincinnatti.

Many of us believed DD was mostly a journeyman assistant coach, his resume before UNT showing quite many assistant coach stop-overs before his Kansas State connnection handed over to him our UNT HFC's job practically before Matt Simon hardly had time to pack his boxes to leave. DD's expectations for his future as a NCAA D1-A HFC may have been a tad inflated and his never getting not even one higher profile job interview after 4 bowl games should have been a red flag to some of you (sorry, but his Idaho job interview doesn't count among the higher profile group).

My and many other's light bulbs came on with DD and what his recruiting was producing for our football program when we got pounded at Fouts Field by another Oklahoma team (mainly Tulsa U) in our worst loss in Fouts Field history and then La Tech (who I thought we had been recruiting at least on their level) that same season put the icing on the cake in that disastrous 2005 season; and all this happening right after a run of 4 SBC championships--which included 3 losses to FAU as I recall with that first loss while they were a 1-AA program--BTW, we went to a bowl game after that season we first got beat by a Schnelly 1-AA team).

An NCAA D1-A football team usually gets beat on Game Day not neccessarily based on practice sessions of the week before that game, but moreso what happened on the recruiting trail 3-4 years before any particular Game Day. It will be that way all season this season, too.

Jeez, I hope Todd Dodge is not reading some of these threads in what the Mean Green Radio Network guys even call a honeymoon year for the belatedly hired late December coach. Honeymoon year for those who may need a further interrpretation means you do the best you can with what you inherited both from the previous HFC's recruits and for TDodge, an much improved Sun Belt Conference that looks nothing like the one DD marched thru like Sherman did Atlanta in its first few formative years of schools mostly just out of 1-AA. DD's first above .500 year came in his Year 5 (out of the 8 he spent in Denton).

Yet why all this immediate expectation for Todd Dodge with mostly DD recruits is a question many I know on this board have been discussing well beyond this thread? I suggesested all that immediate expectation maybe even coming from a hardy handful who wanted DD Ball another year or 2 or 3 so he could have completely put this program in the grave and for those who like lots of elbow room at Fouts Field home games, too. For those of you who got too close or befriended Dickey (who in my 2-3 times around the man I found to be mostly pleasant albeit a bit stand'offish); yet some of you should know better since you would know as much as anyone the first big opportunity Darrell Dickey might have had to leave Denton he would have in a New York minute; and FWIW............ he may not have even said goodbye.

I still defer to the below signature for those who feel we should win the SBC in 2007 with the last 3-4 years recruiting classes.

Plumm,

I think you totally missed my point.

First of all, I was one of the first ones to call for Dickey's head...so I'm certainly not in this "handful that wanted DD ball another year or 2 or 3 years". In fact, I wasn't even aware such a group existed!

I just think completely dismissing the next two or three years because we have a new coaching staff and non-athletic recruits (because that's basically what your saying about "DD's players") is selling these players short as well as the coaching staff. I think most on this board would agree that we could very easily be 2-1 right now instead of 0-3. Therefore, a logical conclusion would be that we have enough talented players to expect to win more than two games in Todge's first season. I know that Todge and staff don't expect to be 2-10 at the end of this season and I'm pretty sure they would take exception to being called "step-coaches" to the current players they didn't personally recruit.

Oh, and one more thing...was it just a coincidence that Dickey started winning the same season we joined the SBC?? I think not. The league has obviously gotten much stronger in the last couple of years, but I still think App. State or several other top D-II programs could come in here and compete for the conference championship in their first season. Let's keep our eye on the Hilltoppers because they've looked pretty good so far this year.

Let me ask you one last question...do you think OU, UT or any other top-tier football program would be willing to give a new coach a "free pass" for the first two or three seasons and not be upset if they went 2-10 in those first two years?? I know we're no where near the upper level of D-1 competition, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't get upset and question decisions when we blow leads/lose games to teams like SMU and FAU.

I would be very surprised if many would question Todge's hire even if we go 0-12 this season (Ron Mendoza maybe, but not Todge), but that doesn't mean we won't be disappointed with a winless record. I don't think one person expected to go undefeated this season but we do expect to win winnable games. To not expect such results and sit back and wait for that some day when "Todge's players" are in place is exactly the attitude that has left our program lagging at the rear of D-1A football.

[PlummMeanGreen]

Responses in bold black

Plumm,

I think you totally missed my point.

What was that point once again?

First of all, I was one of the first ones to call for Dickey's head...so I'm certainly not in this "handful that wanted DD ball another year or 2 or 3 years". In fact, I wasn't even aware such a group existed!

Don't think I ever said you were part of that small group, gangrene (which BTW....does actually exist). Was told that by a most reliable source on that one.

I just think completely dismissing the next two or three years because we have a new coaching staff and non-athletic recruits (because that's basically what your saying about "DD's players") is selling these players short as well as the coaching staff. I think most on this board would agree that we could very easily be 2-1 right now instead of 0-3. Therefore, a logical conclusion would be that we have enough talented players to expect to win more than two games in Todge's first season. I know that Todge and staff don't expect to be 2-10 at the end of this season and I'm pretty sure they would take exception to being called "step-coaches" to the current players they didn't personally recruit.

Didn't say give him a free ride for 3 years; in fact, I feel he will have this program above .500 in his Year 3 (DD's was in Year 5)

Oh, and one more thing...was it just a coincidence that Dickey started winning the same season we joined the SBC?? I think not. The league has obviously gotten much stronger in the last couple of years, but I still think App. State or several other top D-II programs could come in here and compete for the conference championship in their first season. Let's keep our eye on the Hilltoppers because they've looked pretty good so far this year.

Sadly for all of us Mean Greeners, I feel FAU could have taken at least 2 of our 4 bowl trips away from us since we lost to them 3 X's under DD; They were never elgible to go to a bowl as the SBC representative in our first 2 losses to them as I recall. I stand to be corrected (as always).

UNT has been back in NCAA D1-A once we met its attendance criteria in 1994 with almost a 20,000 per game average; most other SBC football programs had not even dreamed of NCAA D1-A back in the mid 1990's and most all of our present conference-mates were (in 1994) all but unknown commodities to most of our fans and alums I would venture to say.

Let me ask you one last question...do you think OU, UT or any other top-tier football program would be willing to give a new coach a "free pass" for the first two or three seasons and not be upset if they went 2-10 in those first two years?? I know we're no where near the upper level of D-1 competition, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't get upset and question decisions when we blow leads/lose games to teams like SMU and FAU.

Apparently, there are many Arkansas fans who would be very forgiving of TDodge's present record at UNT looking at Deep Green's thread on their interest in TDodge--wonder if they know they still have a HFC under contract?

First of all let me reiterate this too: DD did not leave our cupboard completely bare; we have some very good athletes over in our fabulous multi-acre Mean Green Village--we just don't have enough of them to be competive right away IMHO.

I'm also upset we are not 2 and 1 as much as anyone, I'd bet TDodge is probably more upset about it than we are since 2 wins were within reach; but I (and many others) are just not ready to put this coaching staff under as much scrutiny as some seem to be until they truly get their players (assuming that U of Arkansas doesn't hire him away from us before that gets to happen--after all, Jerry Moore left UNT with a career .500 record only after 2 years in Denton.

I would be very surprised if many would question Todge's hire even if we go 0-12 this season (Ron Mendoza maybe, but not Todge), but that doesn't mean we won't be disappointed with a winless record. I don't think one person expected to go undefeated this season but we do expect to win winnable games. To not expect such results and sit back and wait for that some day when "Todge's players" are in place is exactly the attitude that has left our program lagging at the rear of D-1A football.

Again, we all want to win as many as we can, but I can' wait till Todge gets his players and if his early signings (which we've NEVER had at UNT) comes thru with a few surprise additions, I feel Mean Green football will be on its way to the heights we haven't had nationally (rankings?) since the 1970's. We can all agree with those lofty goals, right?

Would really hate to lose one of our Texas treasures to the freakin's state of Arkansas, too. (Sorry, Arkstfan, nothing personal about that you know)?

Build That 40,000 Seat Stadium Soon ='s Helping Keep TDodge Out of Arkansas (for awhile, anyway).

PS: Can you blame some of those Hogs fans, though? They haven't had a true Texas recruiting presence since they left the Southwest Conference. When Governor Perry and Gang start building 12 foot high fences on the Texas/Mexico border, they need to put one in and around Texarkana, Arkansas too. (Just kiddin', of course)

Edited September 28, 2007 by PlummMeanGreen

[CMJ]

Sadly for all of us Mean Greeners, I feel FAU could have taken 3 of our 4 bowl trips away from us since we lost to them 3 X's under DD. They were never elgible to go to a bowl all 3 X's as I recall. I stand to be corrected (as always).

And so you shall be. Seeing as Dickey lost his last 3 seasons to FAU only one of the NOB trips would be in jeopardy. It's also rather silly to assume just because a school beats us, they'll automatically run the table and win the league EVEN if they had been in the SBC in '04. Did the Owls run the table in '05 or '06? Did they come even remotely close to doing so? For that matter ULM didn't come close to turning that trick in '01 when they beat us either.

Edited September 28, 2007 by CMJ

[PlummMeanGreen]

And so you shall be. Seeing as Dickey lost his last 3 seasons to FAU only one of the NOB trips would be in jeopardy. It's also rather silly to assume just because a school beats us, they'll automatically run the table and win the league EVEN if they had been in the SBC in '04. Did the Owls run the table in '05 or '06? Did they come even remotely close to doing so? For that matter ULM didn't come close to turning that trick in '01 when they beat us either.

Courtland, I did change that number to 2 bowls for FAU. They were 1-AA the first time they beat us and a school-in-waiting for official SBC membership. The 2'nd time they beat us was when they came to Denton after they had beaten a fine UHawaii football team. I can't recall their SBC status that year.

BTW, hope all is well for you in Hollywood. (notice the Hollywood sunglasses).

[FirefightnRick]

And so you shall be. Seeing as Dickey lost his last 3 seasons to FAU only one of the NOB trips would be in jeopardy. It's also rather silly to assume just because a school beats us, they'll automatically run the table and win the league EVEN if they had been in the SBC in '04. Did the Owls run the table in '05 or '06? Did they come even remotely close to doing so? For that matter ULM didn't come close to turning that trick in '01 when they beat us either.

Another school this does apply though is Troy. We lost to them in '01, but it didn't count. Luckily we didn't have to play them in '02, although it's highly doubtfull they could have beaten that defense. We beat them easily in '03. But once again we luckily didn't have to play them in '04. We have lost to them 2 straight since. It's hard to believe NT is 1-3 against Troy.

Rick

[SUMG]

UCF has been mentioned on this thread as a quick turnaround. Not so....O'Leary went 0-12 his first year there.

Also, that Rice team of last year: They started out the season 0-4....before winning 7 of their last 8.....and going to the NO Bowl.

The Mean Green season is still young, and ripe with opportunities.

[GoMeanGreen1999]

UCF has been mentioned on this thread as a quick turnaround. Not so....O'Leary went 0-12 his first year there.

Also, that Rice team of last year: They started out the season 0-4....before winning 7 of their last 8.....and going to the NO Bowl.

The Mean Green season is still young, and ripe with opportunities.

After saturdays game with Vizza getting the experience he needs, our winning streak will begin.