Recruiting to North Texas

[untjim1995]

I know that this recruiting season has been very tough (again) for us. Obviously, I hope we can get some decent recruits in before signing day, but my question goes back to what Brett Vito asked in the fall--why is it so hard to recruit here? I am very interested to hear the answers. Other than Todd Dodge's first few years here, as well as Dickey's one year wonder in stealth recruiting, we genrally suck at the recuriting game. I figure its because Texas HS coaches and parents have only known UNT Football as a loser for so long that they don't take our school's staff(s) seriously--if they do commit here, its often only to wait for another school up the college football ladder to also offer.

UNT offers a college town, just outside of DFW, with a pretty good academic standard and a lot of degree options, as well as some of the best facilities in G5 football. Is this all on McCarney and his staff now, since he has the facilities and a better conference to recruit to that the previous coaches never had? Is it on the university's leadership, who haven't done much to help change the perception of UNT Football? Or is it on Denton for not being that interested in UNT Sports historically and just being too close to home for DFW recruits, who often want to go further away for their college experience?

I get the old SWC teams getting the best of us these days (still) in recruiting, but its the SBCUSA teams that I don't get. It just seems like it doesn't matter if we have an offensive-minded coach or a defensive-minded coach, our recruiting almost always is terrible compared to the other G5 schools.

[SilverEagle]

I don't think it's just the win/loss record at NT, it's our overall reputation as a school that just doesn't care as much about athletics, and so therefore we don't care about our athletes either. Most of the athletes who can play D-1 football come from HS programs that really support their athletes and therefore their outstanding athletes tend to be BMOC (big men on campus) with all the recognition from their peers that go along with that status. They are not only recognized by their peers but by people in the community as well. And the same thing tends to happen at all the colleges that these outstanding athletes visit during recruiting. And because they see that athletes are greatly appreciated and recognized at these schools, they find that more like their HS experience.

But not so much here at NT. When I attended NT in the early-mid 70's I remember overhearing some students at the SUB bitching about how the athletes who were housed at Kerr (along with the general student population) had a different cafeteria line that they ate from than the general student population. Basically he was bitching that the athletes (mostly the football players) ate a lot better than the regular students. The general attitude of the student body at that time was that athletes were privileged.....and undeservedly so. You would have never seen or heard that sort of attitude from students at any of the SWC schools....or most other schools in Texas for that matter. When I attended classes at NT I almost never saw football players getting any sort of recognition from either students or faculty.

To illustrate my point, I'll repeat a story that I told about an encounter in the stands about 5 years ago with a former football player. He and his friend were sitting behind me, and from overhearing some of their stray conversation, it seemed that they used to play on defense for Chuck Mills (former DC for Corkey Nelson). I turned around and asked one of them their name, and he responded Tom Middaugh. I smiled and said "well, there he is folks #87 on your program". He was absolutely shocked. He couldn't believe that I not only remembered his name, but his number as well. I was telling the same story to another former Corkey Nelson player (Monty Moon) and he was just as impressed. I told him the same thing that I told FFR after my visit 5 years ago with Tom Middaugh. I said that it was very sad to me that even though both of them were starters for most of their careers, and even though they got all-conference recognition, it was apparent to me that they had no expectation that they would ever be remembered by anyone after they left North Texas.

Compare that to what players at Texas and A$M etc might experience.

Once again, it's a culture thing.

addendum:

I have to wonder if the same thing (student/faculty indifference) tends to cause more students who were very involved in their High school activities (student government, spirit groups etc) to look elsewhere to attend college. Simply because they wanted to attend a school with a more "rah rah" atmosphere.

Addendum 2:

I would really like to hear from any former athletes and/or family and friends of former (or current) athletes here at North Texas about my thoughts/theory on the subject.

Edited January 12, 2015 by SilverEagle

[BillySee58]

We're not recruiting against A&M or Texas. That's one of the biggest misleading things that people say/hear. There are plenty of players out there in the DFW, East Texas, and Houston who can be above average and all-conference CUSA players who have offer lists that looks like this.

http://247sports.com/Player/Creighton-Barr-62154

http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/player-Zach-Orr-93786

http://sports.yahoo.com/smu/football/recruiting/player-Aaron-Bellazin-103525

We had a good recruiting HC in Todd Dodge but he was an awful coach. Now we have pretty much the exact opposite in Mccarney. I'm not saying we need to get rid of Mac, but this is just what our classes have looked like and most likely will look like under him. This staff has to be winning on the field to have success in recruiting.

Dodge proved that this is not a hard school to recruit to. Even when we were getting wrecked on the field. We don't have to outrecruit schools like Texas, A&M, TCU, OU, etc to get good CUSA level players.

[FirefightnRick]

In 3 1/2 years here Dodge was able to find 4 players who are now under NFL contract.

It's not hard to recruit here. It's hard for RV to find a coach who wants to work and put the effort in to recruit here.

Rick

Edited January 12, 2015 by FirefightnRick

[untjim1995]

In 3 1/2 years here Dodge was able to find 4 players who are now under NFL contract.

It's not hard to recruit here. It's hard for RV to find a coach who wants to work and put the effort in to recruit here.

Rick

How much of that was Dodge being thought of as an offensive guru than being a great recruiter, though?

[keith]

We recruit the wrong state.

[UNTLifer]

In 3 1/2 years here Dodge was able to find 4 players who are now under NFL contract.

It's not hard to recruit here. It's hard for RV to find a coach who wants to work and put the effort in to recruit here.

Rick

You don't think Coach Mac puts any effort in to recruiting? I was at the San Francisco airport a couple of years ago wearing a NT golf shirt. A young man approached me and asked if I was recruiting. I said no, just an alumni and fan. He replied that he played for Mac at ISU and loved him. Was thinking about driving to Kansas State for our game against the Wildcats. Why would a former player feel this way, stated all the players loved playing for him, and not current players? Why would a man of his energy be a poor recruiter in your estimation?

[greenminer]

You don't think Coach Mac puts any effort in to recruiting? I was at the San Francisco airport a couple of years ago wearing a NT golf shirt. A young man approached me and asked if I was recruiting. I said no, just an alumni and fan. He replied that he played for Mac at ISU and loved him. Was thinking about driving to Kansas State for our game against the Wildcats. Why would a former player feel this way, stated all the players loved playing for him, and not current players? Why would a man of his energy be a poor recruiter in your estimation?

People change? I don't know one way or the other, but I wouldn't assume everything that happened at ISU is exactly the same in Denton.

[BillySee58]

People change? I don't know one way or the other, but I wouldn't assume everything that happened at ISU is exactly the same in Denton.

Coach Mac is also probably 15 years older than when that player committed to ISU. And saying players loved playing for a coach is not at all the same thing as saying he's a good recruiter. I'm sure a lot of recruits we went after who chose other schools over North Texas would've loved Dan Mccarney had they chosen us. Doesn't mean he successfully sold them on the program and playing for him while they were a recruit.

[UNT90]

Dodge was able to recruit because he was a young, energetic coach who promised to open up the offense. For all of Dodge's success in recruiting, he was unable to effectively recruit offensive and defensive lineman. His best DL recruits were JUCOs.

This is why I hope we go with an up and coming coach that has been a head coach with success at a lower level after Mac leaves.

Head coach at NDSU comes to mind. I know we talked about the head coach at Abilene Christrian when Mac got the job (Chris Thomsen, now OL coach at Arizona St.) Someone along those lines.

Lets just hope we have someone different making the hire when the time comes...

Edited January 13, 2015 by UNT90

[GrandGreen]

This "can't recruit at NT" is simply an excuse for a staff that apparently can't recruit. New coaches come in and uplift poor programs all the time. Before Apogee, it was facilities holding NT back or the affiliation with the Belt or the poor pay for football coaches. None of those excuses are valid now if they ever were.

Actually, after listening to McCarney: I thought this guy could get the job done. After, expressing his dismay at how many players were at NT with very limited offers, he has failed miserably to upgrade that statistic.

Something about Mac, just doesn't sell well to Texas high school football players. There is not a school in the Western Division of CUSA that overall should have a recruiting advantage over NT.

I hope Mac turns this thing around, because of RV's too quick new contract, he is here for years no matter what the record is. However, consistent winning is contingent on better recruitment and it is difficult to visualize how that is going to happen after four years of lowly rating classes.

Edited January 13, 2015 by GrandGreen

[UNTLifer]

I wouldn't assume everything that happened at ISU also happens here, but I would really have a difficult time believing Coach Mac doesn't put any effort in to recruiting based on the effort in puts in to everything else.

The reason I keep bringing this up is to find the following, do we know for a fact that it is Mac, or are people making assumptions?

Edited January 13, 2015 by UNTLifer

[BillySee58]

Dodge was able to recruit because he was a young, energetic coach who promised to open up the offense. For all of Dodge's success in recruiting, he was unable to effectively recruit offensive and defensive lineman. His best DL recruits were JUCOs.

This is why I hope we go with an up and coming coach that has been a head coach with success at a lower level after Mac leaves.

Head coach at NDSU comes to mind. I know we talked about the head coach at Abilene Christrian when Mac got the job (Chris Thomsen, now OL coach at Arizona St.) Someone along those lines.

Lets just hope we have someone different making the hire when the time comes...

His best d-line recruit was Bellazin. I think people overestimate how much of a factor actual X's and O's make for these kids. I think recruits are much more likely to pick the team with their favorite coach of the teams that offered him than the scheme that is, football wise, the best fit for them, assuming those are not the same school.

Look at the offer lists of these defensive players he signed.

http://sports.yahoo.com/footballrecruiting/football/recruiting/player-Aaron-Bellazin-103525;_ylt=ArgjJUVS3ai41QrYm4npdylDPZB4

http://sports.yahoo.com/footballrecruiting/football/recruiting/player-Zach-Orr-93786;_ylt=AjKIP_ofoYNu4.Qc27UZg6VDPZB4

http://sports.yahoo.com/footballrecruiting/football/recruiting/player-DaWaylon-Cook-58210;_ylt=ArywuWiLuyPbPoqUSNwujLRDPZB4

http://sports.yahoo.com/footballrecruiting/football/recruiting/player-John-Shorter-62305;_ylt=AmttforaLdHdC_aGA0W39XVDPZB4

These guys didn't commit to us over other schools because of our wide-open offense. They committed because Coach Dodge and co were able to successfully sell the program to these kids and they were convinced on playing for him, rather than the other programs and coaches. Even after an awful year(s). Whether or not they should've been sold on him is a different story.

But yeah, that is what we need after Mccarney. More importantly, a coach who can recruit and coach. I don't have confidence that RV could get that guy either.

Edited January 13, 2015 by BillySee58

[Caw Caw]

If you were to ask me, it's because we don't have any singular attraction that's greater than the other schools. If we're being honest we're bad to slightly above average in any given football season. We aren't an academic powerhouse, even in C-USA if the kid is truly interested in academics he can go to Rice. If you want to party you'll head down to T-state. We are have a little bit of everything in Denton, but no pure attraction. We're like the girl who's not particularly unattractive, but her friends are either super hot, slutty or have the biggest rack. As far as pairing off for partners with the dance she's going to get grabbed last unless she really dresses up (wins a lot of games).

I absolutely think we could nab a few bigger fish once in awhile if we pitched at the angle of building something here. Just like the recruiting class in basketball with Jordan, Chris and Tony I think we could occasionally have a class like that. Is it my expectation? No? Do i get excited about three stars and former 4 stars that have fallen from grace? of course. I think we run an old school philosophy in an old school town. We aren't trying anything revolutionary so we won't get revolutionary results. But if anyone expeted that from McCarney that's your own poor expectations.

The schools that give me hope are the TCUs and Houston's of the world. They were at one time viewed how we are now. And yes, Houston has back pedaled a bit, but it takes one coach, one spark, one good class to be bitching about getting left out of a national championship.

[GMG24]

Houston got that coach, former ohio state OC

[TIgreen01]

I don't think it's just the win/loss record at NT, it's our overall reputation as a school that just doesn't care as much about athletics, and so therefore we don't care about our athletes either. Most of the athletes who can play D-1 football come from HS programs that really support their athletes and therefore their outstanding athletes tend to be BMOC (big men on campus) with all the recognition from their peers that go along with that status. They are not only recognized by their peers but by people in the community as well. And the same thing tends to happen at all the colleges that these outstanding athletes visit during recruiting. And because they see that athletes are greatly appreciated and recognized at these schools, they find that more like their HS experience.

But not so much here at NT. When I attended NT in the early-mid 70's I remember overhearing some students at the SUB bitching about how the athletes who were housed at Kerr (along with the general student population) had a different cafeteria line that they ate from than the general student population. Basically he was bitching that the athletes (mostly the football players) ate a lot better than the regular students. The general attitude of the student body at that time was that athletes were privileged.....and undeservedly so. You would have never seen or heard that sort of attitude from students at any of the SWC schools....or most other schools in Texas for that matter. When I attended classes at NT I almost never saw football players getting any sort of recognition from either students or faculty.

To illustrate my point, I'll repeat a story that I told about an encounter in the stands about 5 years ago with a former football player. He and his friend were sitting behind me, and from overhearing some of their stray conversation, it seemed that they used to play on defense for Chuck Mills (former DC for Corkey Nelson). I turned around and asked one of them their name, and he responded Tom Middaugh. I smiled and said "well, there he is folks #87 on your program". He was absolutely shocked. He couldn't believe that I not only remembered his name, but his number as well. I was telling the same story to another former Corkey Nelson player (Monty Moon) and he was just as impressed. I told him the same thing that I told FFR after my visit 5 years ago with Tom Middaugh. I said that it was very sad to me that even though both of them were starters for most of their careers, and even though they got all-conference recognition, it was apparent to me that they had no expectation that they would ever be remembered by anyone after they left North Texas.

Compare that to what players at Texas and A$M etc might experience.

Once again, it's a culture thing.

addendum:

I have to wonder if the same thing (student/faculty indifference) tends to cause more students who were very involved in their High school activities (student government, spirit groups etc) to look elsewhere to attend college. Simply because they wanted to attend a school with a more "rah rah" atmosphere.

Addendum 2:

I would really like to hear from any former athletes and/or family and friends of former (or current) athletes here at North Texas about my thoughts/theory on the subject.

This is overall a pretty good post, but I'm going to have to dispute the part about students at SWC schools not complaining that athletes get better treatment. If anything, they probably complained more back in the day (my Dad's day) when sports wasn't just accepted as big business as it is now. Nobody likes to see kids sleeping through class without punishment (I saw this personally at UNT) and have heard plenty of stories from friends and family who went to SWC schools along the same lines.

Your point is not lost---athletes at P5 schools enjoy a sort of celebrity on campus that they just don't at G5 schools....but that doesn't mean anyone likes to see someone getting what is perceived to be better treatment and should just go along with it.

As to the topic at hand: get the right people here, and recruiting will take care of itself. JJ is exhibit A. Initially he relied on so-so classes with the occasional impact transfer. By the time he left, he had built his/our reputation up to the point that we landed 3 top 100 players in the same class. Trilli did the same his first couple of years, but couldn't sustain it once it became apparent that he couldn't win ball games. Dickey had the one big breakthrough year but he really recruited pretty well the year before and the year after. He couldn't sustain it due to losing too many key assistants every year. Dodge was able to recruit NFL caliber players here right up until the end, but couldn't find balance and fill out his classes with enough depth.

Our problem is not UNT, or that kids don't want to come here. Kids follow coaches and systems. We've been able to recruit well, but have had trouble sustaining it when coaches (including key assistants) either lose or move on.

Edited January 13, 2015 by TIgreen01

[untjim1995]

Good stuff here--I tend to agree with TI Green on a lot of what he says, as well as SilverEagle, too. I think the answer is really a combo of both. We aren't high on the totem pole, have absolutely no reputation in the DFW area for being anything other than as a loser that gets bought for wins by the P5s, and we generally don't play anyone that the general fan wants to watch. But the coaches have found gems over the years and have seen them develop, just like the other G5 programs have done.

What has surprised me the most is that McCarney--until halfway thru this miserable season--was a breath of fresh air when you heard him talk about the potential here at UNT. The recruiting hotbed, the facilities, the academics, etc...he was like a kid in the candy store, trying to figure out what he wanted, believeing that no matter what he wanted was going to be great. But then he went to go buy the candy, only to find it was already bought by someone else, that it wasn't for sale, or that the candy he thought he was buying turned out to not taste as good. And that finally has led him to blame the candy store, not himself for not choosing better. I really believe he thought this was going to much easier to sell than it has been. But the fact that his offense is dull as dishwater and we aren't winning just keeps us in the status quo with recruits and their parents and coaches. I don't know that we can ever really get out of this "groundhog day" loop we are in with Coach Mac at the helm, but it doesn't matter if we can or can't--he's gonna be here for at least 3 more season, if not more.

[cdizzle86]

I would love to be a fly on the wall during an in-home recruiting visit. I would love to see how they pitch NT.

How in the world did we let Nick & Chris Orr out of our grasp? We weren't even in their "top" schools! We should've been pitching about how they could continue to build the dynasty that Zach Orr built. They would've been royalty at North Texas!

I know there's only so much recruiters can control, but it just doesn't make sense to me.

[GrandGreen]

If you were to ask me, it's because we don't have any singular attraction that's greater than the other schools. If we're being honest we're bad to slightly above average in any given football season. We aren't an academic powerhouse, even in C-USA if the kid is truly interested in academics he can go to Rice. If you want to party you'll head down to T-state. We are have a little bit of everything in Denton, but no pure attraction. We're like the girl who's not particularly unattractive, but her friends are either super hot, slutty or have the biggest rack. As far as pairing off for partners with the dance she's going to get grabbed last unless she really dresses up (wins a lot of games).

I absolutely think we could nab a few bigger fish once in awhile if we pitched at the angle of building something here. Just like the recruiting class in basketball with Jordan, Chris and Tony I think we could occasionally have a class like that. Is it my expectation? No? Do i get excited about three stars and former 4 stars that have fallen from grace? of course. I think we run an old school philosophy in an old school town. We aren't trying anything revolutionary so we won't get revolutionary results. But if anyone expeted that from McCarney that's your own poor expectations.

The schools that give me hope are the TCUs and Houston's of the world. They were at one time viewed how we are now. And yes, Houston has back pedaled a bit, but it takes one coach, one spark, one good class to be bitching about getting left out of a national championship.

Yes, I expected McCarney to out recruit the Texas twins, La Tech, UTEP, the Belt etc. I also disagree that other peer schools, overall have any advantages on NT. Rice has an academic age on the whole state, but it is a small school with little athletic support with the disadvantage that any player that passes the clearing house cannot automatically be admitted. As far as party schools, TS at San Marcos is doing everything they can to get rid of that old image. NT has as much or more to tout than any of the G5 regional schools.

I do agree strongly with your last sentence. The right people will turn around the football program at NT, I just hope I am still around to see it.

[untjim1995]

I wonder if Mac just didn't listen to anyone who gave him a "realistic" view of the expectations of the football program here or if he was misled into believing this was a USF/UCF starter kit just needing the right coach to take the bull by the horns. It is still so strange to me to see him go from uber positive for 3+ years to Darrell Dickey reincarnated--that is what has me rattled about him still. If he does become the 2.0 version od Dickey off the field (he already is on the field), I just wonder how many more fans are going to just turn around and go away, never to be heard from again. That, to me, is the biggest worry I have for the program right now. Coach Mac isn't going anywhere--he knows it, the admin knows it, the AD knows it, and the monied fans know it. That should be a positive, but the reality is that a negative coach really does burn bridges quickly--we saw Dickey's career go up in smoke as soon as we could afford (or chose to afford) to can him. If you know that the end of the 2017 season is the earliest point that a new coach could get in here, it makes it even more important that the current coach not bemoan and generally discredit this place.

[ntsumck]

You can win at North Texas, especially in CUSA. You have to have the right combination of good coaching and good recruiting. I just believe this staff is full of very poor recruiters!

[untjim1995]

You can win at North Texas, especially in CUSA. You have to have the right combination of good coaching and good recruiting. I just believe this staff is full of very poor recruiters!

Its hard for me to imagine that the entire staff is full of poor recruiters. I think that the recruiting game in this area of the country is so competitive, its really hard to convince these coaches and the parents that we are serious about football when the budget comes from p5 ass-kickings, that we are still thought of as the team that dropped down to i-aa and stayed down, and we have had all of 4 winning seasons since 1995.

I do think that recruiting may not be the best attribute of the coaches on this staff--it appears that coaching/teaching are more in their lines of strength. What is great about this is that you can usually get a great team when you get a lot of seniors on your team. Obviously, though, you are having to coach up and build up players, so you are talking about years for that to take place. Just as it took two years of losing to build up the Dodge pieces into a 9-win, HoD Bowl Champion, I suspect that it will be similar now to what is most likely the earliest we will see a winner here again, in two more years. Next year, I am 100% certain that McNulty will be the QB. The defense will be bigger and more experienced, but aren't ready to be a dominant aspect of our team, yet. So, 2016 is what you have to look to as the most reasonable season to expect a winner again, in my opinion. The biggest roadblock to 2016, though, is that you won't have an experienced busdriver QB there, assuming McNulty starts all of 2015, which I think is very certain, as well. in 2016, you'd have a brand new QB, who probably won't get much trust from the coaches, just as we have seen in every QB we have had under Coach Mac. But with a veteran runner in Wilson, an Oline that will get rebuilt this upcoming season and should hopefully be ready to play better in 2016, and a defense that will have been rebuilt for two years, I suspect 2016 is when we can hope to get back to 6+ wins.

Here is the good news for anyone who we are recruiting right now: I think the redshirt freshmen and true freshmen will get playing time a lot this season. This upcoming season will be completely about competition for playing time at every single position, save for kicker. Its why I realistically think 3-4 wins is reasonable. I think we will win the Portland State game and 2-3 others in CUSA games and SMU. La Tech, USM, UTSA, UTEP, and Rice all appear to be in better shape right now than we are, but we should be able to beat one of them. Depending on who we get from CUSA East, that is where I think we get the other 1-2 wins. If you see us getting back to 6+ wins, I'd love to know how--the QB play is bad, the defense is just small and learning to play, and the OL is starting over. That isn't a recipe for a winner, much less a bowl team...

[SilverEagle]

I wonder if Mac just didn't listen to anyone who gave him a "realistic" view of the expectations of the football program here or if he was misled into believing this was a USF/UCF starter kit just needing the right coach to take the bull by the horns. It is still so strange to me to see him go from uber positive for 3+ years to Darrell Dickey reincarnated--that is what has me rattled about him still. If he does become the 2.0 version od Dickey off the field (he already is on the field), I just wonder how many more fans are going to just turn around and go away, never to be heard from again. That, to me, is the biggest worry I have for the program right now. Coach Mac isn't going anywhere--he knows it, the admin knows it, the AD knows it, and the monied fans know it. That should be a positive, but the reality is that a negative coach really does burn bridges quickly--we saw Dickey's career go up in smoke as soon as we could afford (or chose to afford) to can him. If you know that the end of the 2017 season is the earliest point that a new coach could get in here, it makes it even more important that the current coach not bemoan and generally discredit this place.

I think I heard him make a comment once that the job was a bit more challenging than he originally thought it would be. I think the last coach (besides Hayden Fry) that was hired here that had the most realistic view of the "situation" here at North Texas was Corkey Nelson.

I keep harping on this, but it's true. Coach Mac can change the culture of his football team pretty much by himself, but he cannot, by himself, or by any given year's record, change the culture/history of North Texas. Because if that was possible, then we should have had SRO at the SMU game this year.

Changing our culture has to be a top down,(or if you prefer another direction), a shoes up, event. It's kind of like fighting fire ants in your neighborhood. You can't kill them out unless EVERYONE IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD is out there putting out fire ant bait on a CONSISTENT BASIS.

[817Fan]

It's simple. We don't cheat.

Exhibit A

https://rivals.yahoo.com/footballrecruiting/football/recruiting/player-Johnny-Shaw-148916;_ylt=AkiitW5F256dehzTf6NfvApDPZB4

[BillySee58]

It's simple. We don't cheat.

Exhibit A

https://rivals.yahoo.com/footballrecruiting/football/recruiting/player-Johnny-Shaw-148916;_ylt=AkiitW5F256dehzTf6NfvApDPZB4

Neither did they. Shaw committed to TCU, flipped to Texas, then got left out when they hired Charlie Strong. So Shaw, not being recruited by TCU or Texas anymore, committed to Louisiana Tech to play for Manny Diaz who was at Texas when they committed.