Breaking news -- Chris Jones, Jordan Williams ineligible

[MeanMag]

WOW..really bad news and as expected people just want to jump to conclusions that they have no way of supporting with any facts...I've read "epic fail" on the part of the AD, "how could they not know?", ridiculous comments like ignoring everyone else to focus on T Mitchell and on and on.

So, please tell me how you know that the academic support staff was not working diligently with both these guys? Academic support personnel can only do so much...they cannot go to class for these guys, they cannot make sure all assignments are actually completed and turned in by the student, they cannot take the tests for the students...and they cannot spend every waking moment with these guys. There is just somethings that a person must set as a priority for themselves and do what it takes to make it happen. The fact these kids even needed academic tutors says something to me about the preparation they received in HS and the "special treatment" as athletes that they may have received in the classroom.

I do not know the facts here...they have not been reported by the university and should not be reported for the sake of privacy. I think there is probably a bit of "blame" for everyone involved in this matter, but bottom line to me is that these players are 100% responsible for their own academic progress...just like any other student enrolled at UNT. The fact that they receive academic tutoring as part of their program is a bonus and, as such, should insure that they pass.

But, also, like several more "calm" heads have indicated, its good that this happened in the first semester of their freshman years. If they take care of business, and T Mitch himself just might help make that happen, they will help guide UNT for several years to come. It might even "bleed off" on some of the other players who are on the "margin" as far as grades are concerned. By sitting on the bench and knowing they have let their team down, the lesson will more than likely be learned.

All is not lost. This might just be the catalyst that helps Tony Mitchell shine and simply take over a game knowing more is on his very capable shoulders now to be a leader of this team. It will also allow other players to step up and fill that void...perhaps even seeing progress that would not have come without the extra playing time.

I don't like this one little bit...it's bad...no way it should have happened, these kids made a mistake and they will pay the price, as will UNT and its fans and students. But, UNT still has a season to play and the sun will definitely come up this morning. I feel bad for these two young men, the team, the staff and the alums and fans. I wish them nothing but success in getting their academics back in order, and I look forward to seeing them on the court next season.

Wow...bad news. Hopefully, lesson learned!

You did it KRAM. I gave you a +1.

[Green Mean]

Cruddy news. But hopefully this makes these two young talented men more mature and responsible for what lies ahead not only in their college lives but even beyond.

That said Barry Switzer recently said that there is no way in hell coaches don't know just about every single thing their players do. To me this is a bigger issue since it is academic related so I am sure they had to have known something. As for the mentors/tutors for the players...they're there to offer assistance but players can refuse it if they want. And even if they get help...mentors and tutors aren't there to take their tests. As many on this thread has said something like this can only be on the players. Unfortunately this has happened to two of our primo players but the show must go on.

[meangreenbob]

"As for the mentors/tutors for the players...they're there to offer assistance but players can refuse it if they want. And even if they get help...mentors and tutors aren't there to take their tests."

Edited January 18, 2012 by meangreenbob

[Harry]

I think some people in here need to jump off their high horse for a minute and understand that being a freshman at a University for the first time is challenging for most -- I know it was for me and I'm not ashamed to admit it. All of the freedoms, being able to stay up all night, girls -- I would like a show of hands here because I'm guessing that many of us had our academic struggles when we first went to college.

Just last night I found out, that one of my son's friends was leaving A&M (after one semester) and enrolling at a community college. Kid is incredible bright and well mannered but the first semester there just kicked his butt. It happens and frankly to students who have less demands on them then full scholarship athletes do with all of the practicing and travel etc.

So while I agree this lies solely on the two players in question, I would ask that we be a little more understanding of their predicament. I also think to ask questions of how something like this could slip through the academic advisor program is legitimate. Let's try to identify how we could have addressed this issue earlier and perhaps intervened to get these kids who are in academic danger back on track.

GMG!

[KRAM1]

Well to be honest in your eyes it is all the students fault while defending the administration to the hilt, so I guess everyone just needs to find common ground.

Please do tell me whose responsibility it is if it is not the student's own to pass classes? Seems the vast majority of our athletes in every sport, including basketball, do manage to stay eligible...heck, some even are honor roll students. Please tell the other 34,000+ students who is responsible that they actually do the work and pass?

I do not "excuse" anyone here who had a role in this mess, but one should clearly see who is ultimately responsible for this. You can say, well, these kids have to practice, travel, etc. Sure, don't all our other athletes and haven't they since college athletics was created in the first place? Don't many non-athlete kids have to work one, two or even three jobs to pay for their college? That certainly can take a bit of time away from studies, right? Look, I get it, not all the non-athlete kids pass either, but I can bet they don't go around and blame some administrator. My guess, they probably wish they were provided the special tutors that our scholarship athletes receive.

And, what about our walk-on non-scholarship athletes? Do they get the same access to tutors that our scholarship players get? I don't think they do...yet, somehow they manage to pass in the vast majority.

Want to pass the blame off on someone? Great, if that makes you feel better...go for it. For me, while I understand there are several folks who probably question the work they did regarding these kids, the bottom line falls squarely on these student-athletes.

You did catch the threads about Williams spending his class time on Twitter, right? If you are not passing a class, seems to me you might want to be paying attention to what the instructor is saying...no? Hard for an academic advisor to deal with that sort of thing...going to class is one thing...paying attention and participating is another matter.

Why is it today today that people are so fast to excuse a person for their actions when that person is actually and ultimately the responsible party?

[UNT90]

I think some people in here need to jump off their high horse for a minute and understand that being a freshman at a University for the first time is challenging for most -- I know it was for me and I'm not ashamed to admit it. All of the freedoms, being able to stay up all night, girls -- I would like a show of hands here because I'm guessing that many of us had our academic struggles when we first went to college.

Just last night I found out, that one of my son's friends was leaving A&M (after one semester) and enrolling at a community college. Kid is incredible bright and well mannered but the first semester there just kicked his butt. It happens and frankly to students who have less demands on them then full scholarship athletes do with all of the practicing and travel etc.

So while I agree this lies solely on the two players in question, I would ask that we be a little more understanding of their predicament. I also think to ask questions of how something like this could slip through the academic advisor program is legitimate. Let's try to identify how we could have addressed this issue earlier and perhaps intervened to get these kids who are in academic danger back on track.

GMG!

I understand your feelings, but these kids are not regular freshmen. They are receiving the gift of a free college education and should have all the help in the world to get through their 1st semester. Beyond that, they have additional responsibilities of being a member of a team. Not responsibilities to fans, but responsibilities to their other teammates. A responsibility to Ked Hogans, who has literally sacraficed his body for this program. A responsibility to Alzee Williams, who stayed eligible through HIS 1st year of college and managed to add about 20 pounds of muscle while making grades. A responsibility to Holman, who also has suffered through injuries while inproving his game and making his grades.

Moreover, they also have a responsibilty to those who came before them. A responsibility to Josh White and George Odufuwa, who went a long way to making this a place that Jordan and Chris wanted to come. A responsibility to Calvin Watkins, Ben Bell, and the other members of that 2007 squad that got the first bid to the tourney since 1988.

I don't think they thought about this for one second of their first semester. I hope this is all they think about while they try and get their grades back up in the Spring. If they even stay at UNT (I hope they do).

Edited January 18, 2012 by UNT90

[meangreenbob]

Please do tell me whose responsibility it is if it is not the student's own to pass classes? Seems the vast majority of our athletes in every sport, including basketball, do manage to stay eligible...heck, some even are honor roll students. Please tell the other 34,000+ students who is responsible that they actually do the work and pass?

I do not "excuse" anyone here who had a role in this mess, but one should clearly see who is ultimately responsible for this. You can say, well, these kids have to practice, travel, etc. Sure, don't all our other athletes and haven't they since college athletics was created in the first place? Don't many non-athlete kids have to work one, two or even three jobs to pay for their college? That certainly can take a bit of time away from studies, right? Look, I get it, not all the non-athlete kids pass either, but I can bet they don't go around and blame some administrator. My guess, they probably wish they were provided the special tutors that our scholarship athletes receive.

And, what about our walk-on non-scholarship athletes? Do they get the same access to tutors that our scholarship players get? I don't think they do...yet, somehow they manage to pass in the vast majority.

Want to pass the blame off on someone? Great, if that makes you feel better...go for it. For me, while I understand there are several folks who probably question the work they did regarding these kids, the bottom line falls squarely on these student-athletes.

You did catch the threads about Williams spending his class time on Twitter, right? If you are not passing a class, seems to me you might want to be paying attention to what the instructor is saying...no? Hard for an academic advisor to deal with that sort of thing...going to class is one thing...paying attention and participating is another matter.

Why is it today today that people are so fast to excuse a person for their actions when that person is actually and ultimately the responsible party?

Good Post!

One of my questions out there is if all the signs were there, twitter etc.) then why were they still playing? Was it so they could get a taste of how truely special this team could be if they handle their academics? This team has the potential to go places hundreds of schools can only dream about. Up until now UNT included.

Edited January 18, 2012 by meangreenbob

[KRAM1]

I think some people in here need to jump off their high horse for a minute and understand that being a freshman at a University for the first time is challenging for most -- I know it was for me and I'm not ashamed to admit it. All of the freedoms, being able to stay up all night, girls -- I would like a show of hands here because I'm guessing that many of us had our academic struggles when we first went to college.

Just last night I found out, that one of my son's friends was leaving A&M (after one semester) and enrolling at a community college. Kid is incredible bright and well mannered but the first semester there just kicked his butt. It happens and frankly to students who have less demands on them then full scholarship athletes do with all of the practicing and travel etc.

So while I agree this lies solely on the two players in question, I would ask that we be a little more understanding of their predicament. I also think to ask questions of how something like this could slip through the academic advisor program is legitimate. Let's try to identify how we could have addressed this issue earlier and perhaps intervened to get these kids who are in academic danger back on track.

GMG!

So, Harry...who is your son's friend blamming for his "challenges" at A&M? My guess, he knows who is ultimately responsible...especially as you state that he is "incredible bright". Yep, it can kick your "butt" as you say...if it kicked your's a bit...who did you see as the responsible party? I don't think it is one being on a "high horse" to expect kids to take responsibility for thigs they have complete control over, and who are getting "special treatment" that these other regular students do not get.

LET ME ALSO SAY THIS...while many here want to blame academic counselors, the AD, the rough road schedule, the fact they are freshman, etc., etc. I have not heard one word suggesting that both Williams and Jones are not 100% aware that the responsibility is their's...probably just like your son's friend. So, I don't think folks are "on their high horse" regarding the kids as much as they might be regarding all those who are quick to place the blame on everyone other than the students.

[UNT90]

Good Post!

One of my questions out there is if all the signs were there, twitter etc.) then why were they still playing? Was it so they could get a taste of how truely special this team could be if they handle their academics? This team has the potential to go places hundreds of schools can only dream about. Up until now UNT included.

They were playing to get as many conference wins as possible before they were ruled ineligible.

No other reason makes any sense at all.

[Quoner]

So, I don't think folks are "on their high horse" regarding the kids as much as they might be regarding all those who are quick to place the blame on everyone other than the students.

Let's be honest, like most disagreements on this board, the high horses come into play when people try to make it about way more than the issue at hand. Bob is asking some legit questions in earnest and I wish we all had the information necessary to really debate them. However, most of us don't and, even if someone does, they probably can't put it out there yet (or maybe ever.) For many, it's never about the actual questions -- it's about how what happens fits into the narrative a poster wants to create about something or someone.

If you are predisposed to dislike JJ, the AD, the players or just look for ridiculous statements to poke at, it's all right here, waiting for you to cut and paste and block quote until you get what you want.

What a country!

[TheTastyGreek]

If I were one of three people employed with the sole? primary? responsibility of my job being keeping basketball players eligible and in good academic standing... I'd think it was time to start polishing up the old resume.

That's not saying anything about the full compliance team and tutoring staff. There ought to be some chewed up asses up and down the line on this. And I'm definitely not saying Jordan and Chris weren't responsible for their own grades.

But if my ENTIRE JOB was to oversee the academic performance of basketball players, and two of them didn't even last past a semester... Well, I'd probably have some responsibility in the matter, wouldn't I?

Chris and Jordan didn't do their job. Consequence- they don't get to play basketball anymore. And, if they don't get things in order quickly, they won't get to attend the University of North Texas for free anymore.

Someone didn't do their job in overseeing their academic performance and guiding them through their first semester of college. What will the consequence be?

[glick1980]

Every UNT high school player JJ has recruited here has graduated, he has been here for eleven years. These two kids have been here for one semester and are now ineligible. It is pretty clear to me who is to blame here.

[meangreenbob]

They were playing to get as many conference wins as possible before they were ruled ineligible.

No other reason makes any sense at all.

[/quote

But wait a minute. If thats true did we put the program first instead of the well being of the student?

[TheTastyGreek]

Every UNT high school player JJ has recruited here has graduated, he has been here for eleven years. These two kids have been here for one semester and are now ineligible. It is pretty clear to me who is to blame here.

That's transfere a statistic.

[Harry]

Every UNT high school player JJ has recruited here has graduated, he has been here for eleven years. These two kids have been here for one semester and are now ineligible. It is pretty clear to me who is to blame here.

That's very impressive!

[Green P1]

Everyone screwed this up. The counselors/tutors screwed up by not staying on top of the situation and the kids screwed up by not giving a damn. Neither party should be cut any slack.

How hard is that to see?

[glick1980]

At least that is what Vito's story says in the paper...

From the article "Jones has not had a high school recruit complete his college eligibility without graduating during his time at UNT."

From RV....“This is unfortunate and it is inconsistent with the excellent academic track record that coach Jones has established, and [with] the mission of the University of North Texas and its athletics department,” UNT athletic director Rick Villarreal said in a prepared statement. “We provide our student-athletes with all of the tools they need to be successful in the classroom, and it is incumbent upon them to use these tools to their advantage.”

[UNT90]

[

They were playing to get as many conference wins as possible before they were ruled ineligible.

No other reason makes any sense at all.

[/quote

But wait a minute. If thats true did we put the program first instead of the well being of the student?

Not really. They were going to be ineligible, anyway. Also, the argument can be made that it would have benefitted the program to get Trey and Forrest more accustomed to their new roles. Kind of a conference losses now vs a conference losses later type of thing.

[UNT90]

Everyone screwed this up. The counselors/tutors screwed up by not staying on top of the situation and the kids screwed up by not giving a damn. Neither party should be cut any slack.

How hard is that to see?

Pretty much agree with this, although we don't and won't really know if the counselors/tutors screwed up until we see what (if any) actions are taken by the university against the compliance staff. It should absolutely be investigated, though.

Bottom line? It is the athletes responsibility to get the grades, but we need to make sure the compliance staff were doing their job.

[meangreenbob]

[

Not really. They were going to be ineligible, anyway. Also, the argument can be made that it would have benefitted the program to get Trey and Forrest more accustomed to their new roles. Kind of a conference losses now vs a conference losses later type of thing.

Ok. But if what you're saying is true than what kind of example would members of the athletic department be setting for our young student/ athletes?

[Army of Dad]

At least that is what Vito's story says in the paper...

From the article "Jones has not had a high school recruit complete his college eligibility without graduating during his time at UNT."

From RV....“This is unfortunate and it is inconsistent with the excellent academic track record that coach Jones has established, and [with] the mission of the University of North Texas and its athletics department,” UNT athletic director Rick Villarreal said in a prepared statement. “We provide our student-athletes with all of the tools they need to be successful in the classroom, and it is incumbent upon them to use these tools to their advantage.”

Which is how I imagine they are dancing around Ben Knox.

[Army of Dad]

If I were one of three people employed with the sole? primary? responsibility of my job being keeping basketball players eligible and in good academic standing... I'd think it was time to start polishing up the old resume.

That's not saying anything about the full compliance team and tutoring staff. There ought to be some chewed up asses up and down the line on this. And I'm definitely not saying Jordan and Chris weren't responsible for their own grades.

But if my ENTIRE JOB was to oversee the academic performance of basketball players, and two of them didn't even last past a semester... Well, I'd probably have some responsibility in the matter, wouldn't I?

Chris and Jordan didn't do their job. Consequence- they don't get to play basketball anymore. And, if they don't get things in order quickly, they won't get to attend the University of North Texas for free anymore.

Someone didn't do their job in overseeing their academic performance and guiding them through their first semester of college. What will the consequence be?

+1 (since I can't actually give you one anymore)

[meangreenbob]

Everyone screwed this up. The counselors/tutors screwed up by not staying on top of the situation and the kids screwed up by not giving a damn. Neither party should be cut any slack.

How hard is that to see?

I concur.

[meangreenbob]

Moving on. It truely is unfortunate but hey no one ever said it was easy being a Mean Green fan. Right?

My only hope is that these two kids get focused and take pride in their academics and that they come back strong in the Fall and that the players on the team will continue to carry on the tradition of Mean Green Basketball while they are away.

This too shall pass.

GO Mean Green!

[TheTastyGreek]

Which is how I imagine they are dancing around Ben Knox.

Who is still a student in good standing at UT-Dallas, last I heard.

I'll be pretty surprised if that guy doesn't end up with a college degree.