MWC: Expansion This Year?

[Eagle-96]

9 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

Why would the MWC do something so short-sighted to invite any Texas CUSA teams when they can just wait and get the best Big XII leftovers when the conference falls apart sometime between now and 2025?

I sense some sarcasm in there but not sure so here goes.

Conferences fail when they are reactive as opposed to proactive. The SEC was fine as a conference but wanted to get stronger so they invited A&M and Missouri. They could have waited on other dominoes to fall but they were proactive and now have the strongest football conference in the galaxy. This is also why the Big 12 is expanding now. They don't want to implode. They want to get stronger. I believe BYU and Houston/Cincinnati would do just that. After that happens then the AAC replaces 1 or more. CUSA replaces 1 or more. The MWC better get there first or they may go the way of the WAC. This is also assuming that any Big 12 leftovers(if they implode) would be interested in the MWC. 

[wardly]

With one exception, UNT has not been competitve   in either Sun Belt or CUSA  for over 10 years. In addition, how many of us actually watch MWC games with a 9:00 or 10:00 pm kick off. I don't see what we bring to the table, and time zones certainly don't help. [please don't say DFW market because we are a non factor] Before we dream of moving on we must be able compete where we are. Yes, we might draw more fans to an Air Force home game, but how many of their fans would come out to watch UNT pay in Colorado Springs?

[Eagle-96]

1 minute ago, wardly said:

With one exception, UNT has not been competitve   in either Sun Belt or CUSA  for over 10 years.

Being non-competitive in the Sun Belch got us into CUSA

In addition, how many of us actually watch MWC games with a 9:00 or 10:00 pm kick off. I don't see what we bring to the table, and time zones certainly don't help. [please don't say DFW market because we are a non factor]

The DFW market with which we were a non-factor got us into CUSA

Before we dream of moving on we must be able compete where we are. Yes, we might draw more fans to an Air Force home game, but how many of their fans would come out to watch UNT pay in Colorado Springs?

We currently have conference mates in North Carolina, Virginia, and Florida so being spread out is not a factor in CUSA and shouldn't be in the MWC.

 

[untjim1995]

18 minutes ago, Eagle-96 said:

I sense some sarcasm in there but not sure so here goes.

Conferences fail when they are reactive as opposed to proactive. The SEC was fine as a conference but wanted to get stronger so they invited A&M and Missouri. They could have waited on other dominoes to fall but they were proactive and now have the strongest football conference in the galaxy. This is also why the Big 12 is expanding now. They don't want to implode. They want to get stronger. I believe BYU and Houston/Cincinnati would do just that. After that happens then the AAC replaces 1 or more. CUSA replaces 1 or more. The MWC better get there first or they may go the way of the WAC. This is also assuming that any Big 12 leftovers(if they implode) would be interested in the MWC. 

No sarcasm at all.

If the MWC just waits things out, they will get some combination of these schools to choose from, in my opinion: Probables--TCU, Baylor, KSU, and ISU. Possibles--Tech, OSU, and UH.

After them, you've got UTEP, UTSA, and us.

It just doesn't really add up to me how we ever would get into the MWC when they can get the programs I listed above.

[risinggreen]

5 minutes ago, wardly said:

With one exception, UNT has not been competitve   in either Sun Belt or CUSA  for over 10 years. In addition, how many of us actually watch MWC games with a 9:00 or 10:00 pm kick off. I don't see what we bring to the table, and time zones certainly don't help. [please don't say DFW market because we are a non factor] Before we dream of moving on we must be able compete where we are. Yes, we might draw more fans to an Air Force home game, but how many of their fans would come out to watch UNT pay in Colorado Springs?

I doubt we would have more than one or two 9 to 10 PM kickoffs per year. No biggie for me, and I'd be much more likely to go see a game in Co. Springs or Ft. Collins than I would anywhere in USA other than in Houston, Ruston, or SA.

[untjim1995]

2 minutes ago, Eagle-96 said:

 

We got into CUSA because of exactly one reason--SMU left. Not one other reason--CUSA needed DFW still, so we stepped right into the opening to replace SMU. Its exactly why we aren't ever going to the AAC. When we were in the Sun Belt, SMU being in CUSA was enough to end any discussion of us joining. They had the market covered already for TV.

It sucks, I hate it, but I recognize that SMU has more name recognition for these conferences, as well as the $$$ to keep their best interests in play. Last time we could have gotten into our dream setup, the old CUSA that had SMU, UH, Tulsa, Tulane, Rice, etc..., SMU decided to publicly back La Tech and their pissant TV market over us. Instead, CUSA went ahead and invited UTEP, a market they didn't have a team in, but had a decent to strong following in the two main revenue sports, as well as solid facilities.

[Eagle-96]

25 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

No sarcasm at all.

If the MWC just waits things out, they will get some combination of these schools to choose from, in my opinion: Probables--TCU, Baylor, KSU, and ISU. Possibles--Tech, OSU, and UH.

After them, you've got UTEP, UTSA, and us.

It just doesn't really add up to me how we ever would get into the MWC when they can get the programs I listed above.

And therein lies the problem for CUSA, MWC, MAC, AAC etc... Wait(hope) until the Big 12 implodes and pick off leftovers. The payoff is possibly getting better schools in a few years if the implosion ever happens. The downside is the Big 12 sticks around for many more years and you lose the chance to get schools that choose to go elsewhere in the meantime. It is a calculated risk for sure. The only thing we know for sure is that the DFW market can make up for A LOT of blemishes when it comes to conference opportunities for UNT. 

Edited September 7, 2016 by Eagle-96

[Cerebus]

People keep bringing up Tulane. 

Tulane got in because they are a private institution.  FOIA requests bounce off conference proceedings because of that.  

[untjim1995]

1 minute ago, Eagle-96 said:

And therein lies the problem for CUSA, MWC, MAC, AAC etc... Wait(hope) until the Big 12 implodes and pick off leftovers. The payoff is possibly getting better schools in a few years if the implosion ever happens.. The downside is the Big 12 sticks around for many more years and you lose the chance to get schools that choose to go elsewhere in the meantime. It is a calculated risk for sure. The only thing we know for sure is that the DFW market can make up for A LOT of blemishes when it comes to conference opportunities for UNT. 

Don't get me wrong--I have dreamed of us being in the MWC for over a decade--not the WAC, but the MWC. And all I ever got back, whole-heartedly, was that the MWC was too far west, that the Big West was awful, that we like close travel to see us play games in CUSA, yada-yada-yada...

Before we became the absolute worst program in FBS over the last decade, and back when we had a promising basketball team under Johnny Jones, I always believed we had the perfect selling point to the MWC to travel with TCU or just replace them when they left. I've always said this, but it is going to take a conference leader who sees us for our potential to bring something to their conference from a market standpoint and a competitive standpoint, beyond what we have really ever shown. So far, since 1995, only the Big West, the SBC, and CUSA ever have seen us as worth admittance. And those three conferences are like saying you got hired by KMart after Montgomery Ward's went under, then got hired by Sears.

[Army of Dad]

32 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

People keep bringing up Tulane. 

Tulane got in because they are a private institution.  FOIA requests bounce off conference proceedings because of that.  

^^^^^

Real reason why every conference has at least one spot for small privates.

 

(though, @Cerebus, didn't they already have Tulsa?)

Edited September 7, 2016 by Army of Dad

[PlummMeanGreen]

2 hours ago, wardly said:

With one exception, UNT has not been competitve   in either Sun Belt or CUSA  for over 10 years. In addition, how many of us actually watch MWC games with a 9:00 or 10:00 pm kick off. I don't see what we bring to the table, and time zones certainly don't help. [please don't say DFW market because we are a non factor] Before we dream of moving on we must be able compete where we are. Yes, we might draw more fans to an Air Force home game, but how many of their fans would come out to watch UNT pay in Colorado Springs?

Agree with some of it, Ward White. Time zone related kick-off times for a MWC division of mostly Texas schools I believe would get special consideration .  (Of course, all this merely projecting)

Projecting (or maybe just dreaming which we all cannot afford to ever stop doing) but if we play MWC schools who are ranked and actually beat some of them, then North Texas gets Top 25 rankings; so then a ranked North Texas football program becomes a school that regional schools who could bring fans would want on their schedule.  

Big 12 schools give small allotments for visiting fans because that's all they've got left after season ticket sales and projected "walk up" sales.   Be nice when North Texas will be able to do the same.   We're not close to that now, but our school, alumnus base and Denton County just keeps growing & we will one day fill that fabulous Apogee up by default at some point. 

 Ranked MWC teams?  Remember when the Mean Green beat a (tied for) 19'th ranked San Diego State Aztecs football team and in Denton?  Me'thinks that was the last ranked team we beat & its been awhile but nevertheless......WE BEAT THEM! 

Addendum:  Been busy building a business the last few years (to add to my 401-K) & have this Saturday off  so I'm getting pumped to see our school's football team & the many I know who'll put up with my opinionated B.S but the one thing I (and others) have never been able to bring ourselves to think is:

"Is this all there will ever be at my alma mater so I should just simmer down & accept what I'm being told to, uh, accept & is impossible to achieve?"

GMG!

 

Edited September 7, 2016 by PlummMeanGreen

[NorthTexan95]

I believe those who believe the MWC, ACC, and/or CUSA will pick off the Big 12 leftovers are probably going to be wrong.  The remaining Big 12 teams will still be a conference stronger than all of the G5 conferences.  The MWC, ACC, and/or CUSA will most likely LOSE teams to the Big 12.  

I still haven't heard of a great reason for the MWC to expanded with Texas teams unless networks have told them having the added markets will increase the media payments but a sizable amount (which I doubt it would).  However, if I was looking at schools to invite into a conference UNT should be looked at closely.  The hiring of Baker and Littrell should send a strong signal that the school is more serious than ever about investing into athletics.  We also had almost 25k at the home opener in spite of the horrible past few seasons.  I really believe if we can put back to back to back bowl seasons together we will start talking about increasing the seating capacity and hearing complaints about more expensive tickets.  That will definitely get the attention of other conferences. 

[GangGreen]

3 hours ago, untjim1995 said:

Why would the MWC do something so short-sighted to invite any Texas CUSA teams when they can just wait and get the best Big XII leftovers when the conference falls apart sometime between now and 2025?

The Big12 thought they could wait on Louisville, as well.

2 hours ago, wardly said:

 In addition, how many of us actually watch MWC games with a 9:00 or 10:00 pm kick off. 

I would if they featured North Texas.

[untjim1995]

1 hour ago, GangGreen said:

The Big12 thought they could wait on Louisville, as well.

 

They CHOSE West Virginia over Louisville--they didn't wait on them, they mistakenly chose WVU over them. Both senators and congressmen tried to sell both to the Big XII, but WVU won the battle. But in the end, Louisville won the war, getting into their dream league that is FAR more stable than the Big XII.

[UNTexas]

5 hours ago, UTSA Fan said:

Wouldn't that be a lateral move? It's expensive to change conferences.

Much like us, the conference they joined changed massively as soon as they joined. They might not view it as a lateral.

[MeanGreen_MBA]

I love watching 9 or 10PM MWC games on Saturday night....Great way to wind down a football day.....As there are not 6 other games being played at the same time from the middle and east schools.....a lots of viewers would get to see us play....

[TIgreen01]

I'm with latechdawg88.  UNT could do a lot to improve the perception of the conference that WE ARE CURRENTLY IN.  LaTech nearly knocked off Arkansas in their house, while we got drubbed by smu and stunk it up the last 2 years.  Meanwhile, I actually like the schools (minus UTSA) in our CUSA west division.  I'd rather see these teams improve to the point that we're not looking far out West to some collection of schools that we really don't fit in with.

[untjim1995]

8 minutes ago, TIgreen01 said:

I'm with latechdawg88.  UNT could do a lot to improve the perception of the conference that WE ARE CURRENTLY IN.  LaTech nearly knocked off Arkansas in their house, while we got drubbed by smu and stunk it up the last 2 years.  Meanwhile, I actually like the schools (minus UTSA) in our CUSA west division.  I'd rather see these teams improve to the point that we're not looking far out West to some collection of schools that we really don't fit in with.

I can tell you that you should feel re-assured about playing the CUSA West teams--we might lose one or two along the way, but I am failry certain that most of CUSA West--and the SBC Western schools--will be the ones we are competing against for the long term.

I really do believe Rice will move up to the AAC if/when UH leaves, but I don't see the other Texas schools in CUSA leaving anytime soon.

[wardly]

We are 1&6 against San Diego State, losing to them 12-30 in 1975 at their stadium.We did beat them 14-9 at home in 1974 when they were ranked 20th. That was 41 years ago, the last time to my knowledge we beat a ranked team, and is really a reach. Regarding the MWC,we don't travel, we don't win, no one watches us or attends out games at home or on the road ,unless its a money game at LSU,Oklahoma, etc. We need to get our house in order before we go looking for a new conference.

[UTSA Fan]

6 hours ago, untjim1995 said:

Don't get me wrong--I have dreamed of us being in the MWC for over a decade--not the WAC, but the MWC. And all I ever got back, whole-heartedly, was that the MWC was too far west, that the Big West was awful, that we like close travel to see us play games in CUSA, yada-yada-yada...

Before we became the absolute worst program in FBS over the last decade, and back when we had a promising basketball team under Johnny Jones, I always believed we had the perfect selling point to the MWC to travel with TCU or just replace them when they left. I've always said this, but it is going to take a conference leader who sees us for our potential to bring something to their conference from a market standpoint and a competitive standpoint, beyond what we have really ever shown. So far, since 1995, only the Big West, the SBC, and CUSA ever have seen us as worth admittance. And those three conferences are like saying you got hired by KMart after Montgomery Ward's went under, then got hired by Sears.

How much of a consideration is potential?

[untjim1995]

1 hour ago, UTSA Fan said:

How much of a consideration is potential?

Apparently not much at all, based off of the last 50 years or so.

[UNTexas]

9 hours ago, untjim1995 said:

We got into CUSA because of exactly one reason--SMU left. Not one other reason--CUSA needed DFW still, so we stepped right into the opening to replace SMU. Its exactly why we aren't ever going to the AAC. When we were in the Sun Belt, SMU being in CUSA was enough to end any discussion of us joining. They had the market covered already for TV.

It sucks, I hate it, but I recognize that SMU has more name recognition for these conferences, as well as the $$$ to keep their best interests in play. Last time we could have gotten into our dream setup, the old CUSA that had SMU, UH, Tulsa, Tulane, Rice, etc..., SMU decided to publicly back La Tech and their pissant TV market over us. Instead, CUSA went ahead and invited UTEP, a market they didn't have a team in, but had a decent to strong following in the two main revenue sports, as well as solid facilities.

They went with UTEP over us back then because we were envious of junior high facilities at the time. They also had a distant memory of good basketball under Haskins. Those days are long gone on both accounts. 

I know people who work for UTEP and they have said they know they are a tough sell with all these shake ups these days. It's a small, secluded, undesirable (for most people, not all), area, that's not at all a hotbed for recruiting. They believe things won't shake out well for them but hope for the best. They don't like us nor UTSA for many of the reasons previously stated in this thread.

I do think we will leave them in the rear view athletically in the long run. Same with UTSA. I really do see massive differences surrounding our support concerning sports these days. In a good way too...

Edited September 8, 2016 by UNTexas

[PlummMeanGreen]

4 hours ago, UTSA Fan said:

How much of a consideration is potential?

Some schools seem to receive invites based on what they did 50 plus years ago.  Tulane & SMU easily fit with that group.   If UNT had that same trait who thinks we wouldn't use it, either?

Heck, Tulane was once in the SEC and for whatever reason dropped out of that league but still....they are a former SEC school who played in 80,000 seat Tulane Stadium (which doubled as the Sugar Bowl every 1'st of January back in the day)  yet they received the AAC invite on (seems to me) what they hadn't done in a long time.

Its a mystery to me why North Texas has gone thru an army of coaches of which none finished above .500.   Jerry Moore was right at .500 & I won't even mention his predecessor who did finish above .500 since that is now ancient history.   

Who knows where all this conference re-alignment goes, but the only thing we have right now is the "P" word and one helluva' TV market of which UNT has the largest constituency from which to draw good Nielsen ratings as in....... enrollment, huge DFW area alumnus numbers and our school's home county population which will soon enough be at 1 million. 

Truth be told, UNT President Neal Smatresk is probably our only chance to plead our case with MWC powers that be if our school decides it wants to leave Sun Belt 2.0.

Again, only thing that makes this work is if 4 Texas schools circle the wagons and go westward ho straight to the MWC.  Most on GMG.com seem to see the MWC as a move up.

  

 

Edited September 8, 2016 by PlummMeanGreen

[MeanGreenHoops]

23 hours ago, wardly said:

We are 1&6 against San Diego State, losing to them 12-30 in 1975 at their stadium.We did beat them 14-9 at home in 1974 when they were ranked 20th. That was 41 years ago, the last time to my knowledge we beat a ranked team, and is really a reach. Regarding the MWC,we don't travel, we don't win, no one watches us or attends out games at home or on the road ,unless its a money game at LSU,Oklahoma, etc. We need to get our house in order before we go looking for a new conference.

Not picking on you, but pointing out this theme that I see several times on here. We need to win, or get it together, or whatever first before we shoot for anything higher.

Well, tell that to UTSA. They had nothing, but yet asked, presented a plan, and got right into CUSA. They didn't get anything in order first. THey didn't and still don't even have an on campus stadium.

We need to do the same, sell what you have and what you will become to whomever will listen. That's Baker's job. Waiting for the perfect time is not the way the real world works.

[PlummMeanGreen]

6 hours ago, MeanGreenHoops said:

Not picking on you, but pointing out this theme that I see several times on here. We need to win, or get it together, or whatever first before we shoot for anything higher.

Well, tell that to UTSA. They had nothing, but yet asked, presented a plan, and got right into CUSA. They didn't get anything in order first. THey didn't and still don't even have an on campus stadium.

We need to do the same, sell what you have and what you will become to whomever will listen. That's Baker's job. Waiting for the perfect time is not the way the real world works.

In 15 years off & on GMG.com one of the best & most sensible posts I've read.  

Death, taxes & NCAA conference re-alignment will all 3 happen.  Best be ready for all 3. 

GMG!

Edited September 9, 2016 by PlummMeanGreen