DD's Record 2001 through 2004

[Guest Aquila_Viridis]

We need to double or triple what we're paying for coaches. You want to be competitive against schools outside of the lowest tier, that is the only way. Why should this giant school be so paltry in comparison?

[DeepGreen]

We need to double or triple what we're paying for coaches. You want to be competitive against schools outside of the lowest tier, that is the only way. Why should this giant school be so paltry in comparison?

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Because NT's fans are paltry and non-supportive financially. Start selling 10,000 season tickets each year, regardless of our W/L record, get 1000 members in the Mean Green club and you will be able to pay your coaches better wages. Some of our better coaches should never have left NT for lateral positions.

Edited October 11, 2005 by DeepGreen

[pollock]

So who do you have in mind to coach the Mean Green ?

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I'm not on the Fire Dickey bandwagon, although I'm not at all happy with this season so far. Harry is right that the coaching should be judged on the basis of the whole season.

But if we were shopping for a coach, and had the resources, my vote would be for Mike Price, hands down. I love the way he leads his team out, and the turnaround at UTEP speaks for itself. I would even take him over the Bob Stoopses, Mack Browns, and Larry Cokers of the world. Probably the only coach I'd choose before Price is Pete Carroll.

I would also give consideration to Pat Hill, but just because of he has an awesome moustache.

Unfortunately, NT is a step down for even a UTEP coach.

Edited October 11, 2005 by pollock

[ADLER]

Unfortunately, NT is a step down for even a UTEP coach.

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True. Right now that is accurate.

IF a change were made, North Texas would have to look for an aggressive assistant coach from another Div 1 program, a very successful coach at the Div 1AA or Div 2 level, or a high school coach with an incredible record and collegiate coaching experience.

[Guest Aquila_Viridis]

Because NT's fans are paltry and non-supportive financially. 

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I don't actually agree with this. The school has not appealed enough to people for this type of support. And I mean that in both senses of the word. In the first place, they have a ton of catching up to do because NT clearly has not developed the same level of school spirit as the would-be competition. Secondly, they have not done nearly enough to catch up. They should be getting in people's faces about it.

The things they have done have caught the attention of a relative few. They need to come up with some very aggressive marketing and fund-raising. Big-time funds don't come in by chance.

If they made a wide-ranging, creative and relentless appeal, and there wasn't much response, THEN I would agree.

[NT80]

While no one is claiming the Belt is a beast, the current Sun Belt members since 2001 have wins over:

Vanderbilt (3 times)

Mississippi State

Missouri

Hawaii

Tulsa

Marshall (2 times)

UAB (2 times)

UConn

Akron

Baylor

Cincinnati

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I would guess that none of those teams you mention were in the Top 25 at the time of their SunBelt defeat and that the entire record of those teams at their loss was well below .500. I will also guess that we've played 5x that number of those same middle-of-the-road teams and lost. The SunBelt is still a young football conference compared to others but I don't see the progress in the programs that should be there by now.

[NT80]

Harry,

Your points are valid but the fact is that the team’s total failure in OOC games only highlights how poor the Sun Belt has been. If it is agreed that the Belt has been the worst 1-A conference then the success DD has obtained has been tainted. This is highlighted by this very thread in as much as the “pre” Belt years are left off.

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The SunBelt has served it's purpose to give homeless 1-As and upward 1-AAs a home, even providing a pre-set Bowl for the champ, but it is mostly false glory compared to the total 1-A landscape. OOC games are the REAL barometer of where our program is, and right now it is pitiful (7-40). We should never get beat 54-2 to a Tulsa...at Home no less! And this week we are ranked #147 in college football. We are ONLY a 1 point favorite to beat FIU, a new program. How low have we sunk?

Edited October 11, 2005 by NT80

[ADLER]

I would guess that none of those teams you mention were in the Top 25 at the time of their SunBelt defeat

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Missouri was #9 last year when they lost at Troy, and Vanderbilt was ranked this year when Middle Tennessee beat them.

[NT80]

Missouri was #9 last year when they lost at Troy, and Vanderbilt was ranked this year when Middle Tennessee beat them.

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Vanderbilt was not ranked; this is the highest points they received during week 5.

2005 weekly rankings

Missouri finished 2004 with a record of 5-6 ranked #66, nine spots below North Texas.

Edited October 11, 2005 by NT80

[El Paso Eagle]

I'm not on the Fire Dickey bandwagon, although I'm not at all happy with this season so far.  Harry is right that the coaching should be judged on the basis of the whole season. 

But if we were shopping for a coach, and had the resources, my vote would be for Mike Price, hands down.  I love the way he leads his team out, and the turnaround at UTEP speaks for itself.  I would even take him over the Bob Stoopses, Mack Browns, and Larry Cokers of the world.  Probably the only coach I'd choose before Price is Pete Carroll.

I would also give consideration to Pat Hill, but just because of he has an awesome moustache.

Unfortunately, NT is a step down for even a UTEP coach.

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Please keep in mind Price’s base is in the mid $200’s – Where he makes most of his money is in the incentives - WHICH ARE PERFORMANCE BASED. The biggest of those being based on his ability to motivate the fan base and get season ticket holders and individual game tickets. I would not mind seeing DD get a big bonus tied to getting fans to the game.

Also, Price’s assistants are paid a lot more than the previous coaches’ assistants. However with their success and the turn outs UTEP is still bringing in more money. In fact they are finding out that they can bring in more money for home games against mid and lower level teams than they can playing the “money” games on the road.

[medpilot21]

Not sure why I'm responding to another one of these, but let's do this again...

What does ANY coach have to do to get faith from their fans? Darrell Dickey hasnt JUST won four straight conference titles...he has brought this university back from "football-flatline". Yes, we have lost a few games this year and it hurts to watch. Guess what... this happens at EVERY program. We finally have the luxury of complaining about a losing season, and replacing the head coach is the best we can do? Guys...common sense has to prevail here.

1. For those of us who have had to suffer through bad Big West and SLC days...we are NIGHT and DAY beyond that now. When a Toby Gowin 90-plus yard punt is the highlight of your season...you arent seeing good football. One losing season after four winning seasons in Division-1A, and you want to replace a Four time conference coach of the year? Not me..I've seen the other side.

2. If anyone would have told me in 2000 that we would go to even ONE bowl game, I would have annointed Dickey a Saint! He takes us to FOUR, and less than a year later he is on the hot seat in Denton, Texas? Nope...not unless Mike Leach has already agreed to take a HUGE paycut to replace him.

3. Be careful what you wish for... Darrell Dickey is the real thing, and we have all seen that for ourselves. We do not have the luxury of being "What have you done for us lately" kind of fans? We have to have faith in DD simply becuase he is the best coach we could have. Who knows what you would get for a replacement? Once he's gone, there's no getting him back. When he starts winning at Baylor or SMU, or wherever...some of you would feel a little ridiculous. That's not exactly speculation, he won here.

4. I know we should expect more from our team. OOC wins and conference titles are realistic expectations for us now. But let's be realists... This is a VERY young team, and Harry is right. Please re-read his post and know the truth when you see it. Darrrell Dickey has done more for this program in five years than anyone else you could ever get here. At his present salary (roughly $250K), you are getting a steal with this head coach. Please tell me who comes here for that? If you are talking about paying for a more-prominent coach, okay...where does that money come from?

Enough of that. I have faith in this coach, and I was right there with you guys a few years ago. DD has proven he wants to win as bad as we do. Give this team a year and lets see where the improvement happens. If, at the end of the season, we have made no progress...then you can behead whoever you want. I wont be a part of that, but you'll have stronger stance. I dont know of a head coach who could have beaten Tulsa with what we have on the field right now? But you guys go get him. As for me...

I know, I'm a Darrell Dickey L&A. (Thanks for the email, by the way)..hehe

That rhymed...now if I could only spell?

GMG!!!

[SilverEagle]

- Regardless of what your opinion is of the Sun Belt winning 4 bowls is a major accomplishment - one that Fry and many others who are revered around here couldn't accomplish in their time here.  4 straight Bowl games and national television appearances have done wonders for the image of this program.

-  Some have short memories.  We were - at best - an average I-AA program.  Sure we had the big upsets of downtrodden SWC team now and again, and beat a post death penalty SMU but all in all we did not win more than we lost.  Some state that Fry would have accomplished more if given the situation Dickey faced.  I have a lot of respect for Fry but it is in the very least debatable as to whether or not he would have fared any better than Dickey.  When Fry was coach, NTSU was getting the leftovers of the SWC in recruiting.  Now we have a couple dozen other BCS caliber programs recruiting in our region, not to mention CUSA/Mountain West and others.  It's a different world, it's not fair to compare them.

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For the record, I have not said that I want Dickey to be fired.

But, let's not take shots at Fry with partial information.

Fry didn't win any bowls (Dickey has only won one) because there were no bowl tie-ins to the *MVC, AND there were probably about half the bowls around then as there are now. We also didn't have cable with all the ESPN and FSN channels back then either.

We went to the NO bowl because it was created for the Sunbelt. AND we only went to the first one because there were no rules preventing a team with a losing record to participate in the NO bowl. I believe, thanks to us, that that loop hole has since been closed. Geee, what an honor, the "North Texas rule".

Fry came to North Texas after our worst record in modern football history (1-10)1972. That was also the same year that the students had a referendum vote about keeping football or not. As I recall, it barely passed to keep football. Morale couldn't have been worse amongst the football team as well as the student body. The next year North Texas went 5-5-1 and were co-champions of the MVC. They dipped to 2-7-2 the next year, but he NEVER had a losing record after that.

Fry had to deal with a student body that was ACTIVELY ANTI-ESTABLISHMENT. There were protests against the war, a total lack of interest in sports, and a general distrust of ANYONE in authority. This was the era when "IT AIN'T COOL TO BE A FOOTBALL FAN" really got it's start.

In light of all that, I would say that Fry hasn't gotten ENOUGH CREDIT for all that he did.

As to the reference about the Corkey Nelson era. We may have beaten a "Post-death penalty" SMU team, but we also beat a non-death penalty TCU, Texas, Rice, Texas Tech, and New Mexico team........as a 1-AA SCHOOL.

As far as I'm concerned, the New Mexico win in 1983 will go down in anals of North Texas Iron Man football lore. That team played Texas tough in a 26-6 loss and then drove home on a bus. They then got back on a bus and drove out to New Mexico to play UNM at their homecoming, and beat them 18-8...in the rain. We then got back on a bus and DROVE BACK to Denton. The next week we beat Arkansas State 17-0. The resources were abysmal back then. And not once did Corky Nelson complain about it.

*North Texas left the MVC after Fry's first year as coach and went indy.

[gksmith]

My view of the last 4 years is this:

The OOC losses (most of them) are to teams that are top 50 caliber. UT, OU, Nebraska, Kansas, Air Force, Memphis, Baylor, et al. Losing to a better team (some of those games against top 5 teams) is not a problem.

Someone was knocking the 26 game win streak. Saying that during the streak, we beat 2 teams with winning records.

I do not have a problem losing to top 25 teams and I would like to give teams 26-50 a good run. The alternative is to schedule "cupcakes" in OOC and not make progress.

The 26 game conference steak is nothing to look down on. Not many teams get to do that. The fact that we beat only 2 teams with winning records is more of a testament to how much stronger UNT is over the rest of the Sun Belt. Losing NMSU was a blow because they were (at the time) the only other good team in the conference. Getting Troy to the conference is a big plus because they are a good team.

Take success as it comes. Grip about DD in the OOC games, but remember that those games are against top flight teams. The Sun Belt Conference is a weak conference. The top team is ranked around 65 or so. There are 4 or more teams that are ranked 100 or worse. The lack of quality teams is why the second place team last season did not go to a bowl game even though they were eligible. The same thing will probably happen again this season.

As for North Texas' woes this year, now we see how much Scott Hall made this team. I am not knocking the QBs this year but it is hard to have a Freshman in that leadership position with no experience. DD is not doing all that much different from the last few years in play calling. I think the inexperience at QB is a big factor why the offense is lacking. Nothing anyone can do about it. Growing pains.

I expected this year to be a somewhat "rebuilding" year. The defense is playing very well (14 and 13 points allowed in 2 conference games). The offense has a lot of growing to do.

I will still cheer my team. It will smart when we lose. We keep on keepin' on.

[the green rokemi]

3. Be careful what you wish for... Darrell Dickey is the real thing, and we have all seen that for ourselves. We do not have the luxury of being "What have you done for us lately" kind of fans? We have to have faith in DD simply becuase he is the best coach we could have. Who knows what you would get for a replacement? Once he's gone, there's no getting him back. When he starts winning at Baylor or SMU, or wherever...some of you would feel a little ridiculous. That's not exactly speculation, he won here. 

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The real thing? I don't know if I would go that far...and thinking that he is the best coach out there for us? how would you know? Surely we could find an assistant coach at a BCS program that could teach discipline or make adjustments or play to win or not slam the school/alumni/fans...

[Arkstfan]

I would guess that none of those teams you mention were in the Top 25 at the time of their SunBelt defeat and that the entire record of those teams at their loss was well below .500.  I will also guess that we've played 5x that number of those same middle-of-the-road teams and lost.  The SunBelt is still a young football conference compared to others but I don't see the progress in the programs that should be there by now.

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Missouri was ranked when beaten.

Honestly I came into this season quite optimistic.

Looking at the league schedules coming into the season I had certain expectations.

So far there has been one suprise, MTSU over Vandy.

But the disappointments...

ULM losing at hom to NW State

Troy losing at home to UAB.

UNT losing at home to Tulsa.

MTSU losing at home to Akron.

ULL losing at home to UCF.

I can't explain it. Five of the league's eight teams dropped games AT HOME you would have reasonably expected them to win and so far there has been only one suprise in other games.

Compare that to last year;

Suprises

MTSU winning at Akron

Troy winning at Marshall

Troy winning at Missouri

Idaho winning at Eastern Michigan

Utah State winning at UNLV

Disappointments

MTSU losing at home to FAU

UNT losing at home to FAU

MTSU is clearly where they were last year. They dropped a crazy game and won one. Troy went from 2 big wins (and two close calls) last year to one disappointing loss this year. ULM and ULL each had disappointing losses this year after not having one last year.

ULL didn't have Babb for the UCF game so that is understandable and UAB is pretty salty but the other disappointing losses are just puzzling.

[Arkstfan]

The 26 game conference steak is nothing to look down on. Not many teams get to do that. The fact that we beat only 2 teams with winning records is more of a testament to how much stronger UNT is over the rest of the Sun Belt. Losing NMSU was a blow because they were (at the time) the only other good team in the conference. Getting Troy to the conference is a big plus because they are a good team.

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Among those teams with a losing record UNT beat.

2001 NMSU. But for a 2pts loss at Las Cruces, NMSU finishes 6-6.

2002 ASU. If ASU holds to a 10-6 lead late against UNT, ASU finishes 7-6.

2003 ASU. But for a whipping by UNT, ASU finishes 6-6

2004 ULM. But for a loss at Denton, ULM finishes 6-5.

2004 MTSU. But for a loss at Denton, MTSU finishes 6-5.

2004 NMSU. But for a loss at Denton, NMSU finishes 6-5.

That's six teams that could have had .500 or better records but for UNT.

If UNT had had the decency to go 4-8 last year, instead of 2 teams finishing above .500 the Sun Belt would have had four.

[Stan R]

The best coach for this team is the one that brings in more money to the program and more fans in the stadium. At this point, DD is that person. We have had higher attendance in the last 4 years than in the previous 5 by a large margin. If that trend reverses then it will be time to look for a new coach. The key to this program really has nothing to do with wins (nice) but everything to do with money/Fan support (critical). Let's keep that in mind.

If we can be like UTEP and get 27,000 fans in the stadium during a 2-9 season, then we have arrived as a true D1A program.

[UNTLifer]

Sorry Stan, but I would argue that through RV's efforts we have seen an increase in season tickets, fan support, etc... The gameday event has as much to do with the increase as anything. When has DD gone out and sold the program other than the winning records the last few years? The point of my starting this thread was to reveal the truth behind the numbers. With our success in the SBC the last few years, why are other teams catching and passing us by?

[Stan R]

Sorry Stan, but I would argue that through RV's efforts we have seen an increase in season tickets, fan support, etc...  The gameday event has as much to do with the increase as anything.  When has DD gone out and sold the program other than the winning records the last few years?  The point of my starting this thread was to reveal the truth behind the numbers.  With our success in the SBC the last few years, why are other teams catching and passing us by?

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He has brought fans in by blowing out Baylor at home and for the most part blowing out most of the teams we play at home in crucial must win games like NMSU, etc.. The "fans" don't seem to care who we blow out for the most part. Yes more come for name teams like Baylor and Tulsa, that is a given.

Why are we getting blown by? I wouldn't say getting beat 13-10 is getting blown by, come on. Why are OOC teams blowing by us? I'd say there are many reasons for that. And again, I'm not DD's advocate, I've been disgusted by what I've seen on the field. But what I'm claiming is that the barometer for this team's success should be butts in seats, not necessarily wins.

Edited October 11, 2005 by Stan R

[SilverEagle]

He has brought fans in by blowing out Baylor at home and for the most part blowing out most of the teams we play at home in crucial must win games like NMSU, etc..  The "fans" don't seem to care who we blow out for the most part.  Yes more come for name teams like Baylor and Tulsa, that is a given. 

Why are we getting blown by? I wouldn't say getting beat 13-10 is getting blown by, come on.  Why are OOC teams blowing by us? I'd say there are many reasons for that.  And again, I'm not DD's advocate, I've been disgusted by what I've seen on the field.  But what I'm claiming is that the barometer for this team's success should be butts in seats, not necessarily wins.

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RV, gomeangreen.com, AND the Greenbackers are the reason that there are more butts in the seats.

[untgirl04]

He has brought fans in by blowing out Baylor at home and for the most part blowing out most of the teams we play at home in crucial must win games like NMSU, etc..  The "fans" don't seem to care who we blow out for the most part.  Yes more come for name teams like Baylor and Tulsa, that is a given. 

Why are we getting blown by? I wouldn't say getting beat 13-10 is getting blown by, come on.  Why are OOC teams blowing by us? I'd say there are many reasons for that.  And again, I'm not DD's advocate, I've been disgusted by what I've seen on the field.  But what I'm claiming is that the barometer for this team's success should be butts in seats, not necessarily wins.

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You're absolutely right that we should gauge this team on more than wins alone. And the number of fans has been increasing. But you have to wonder whether that is directly attributable to DD or to RV. How many of the fans attend the game for the gameday experience, not the game? If the game is exciting, you'll get the pure football fans out to watch. But if it's not exciting, you'll see tons of people in the parkinglots before the games and quite a few less in the stands. I think the Nov. 5 game will be a good indicator of which it is.

If we do discover that fewer and fewer fans are going into the stadium, then we have to have the wins to get them back in. I guess my point is that wins and people in the stadium are linked. While neither of them in of themselves should be used to gauge a team's success when trying to build a "brand," the two of them together are a powerful indicator.

[UNTLifer]

- A couple of thoughts.  The Sun Belt is where we are.  That is by no fault of DD's.  It is the fault of prior administrations.  I sense that people want to lay the blame on Dickey because we are in the Sun Belt - it isn't his fault it is ours.

- Dickey has won four straight conference championships.  Some like UNT Lifer and others will downplay this and say that it is a sorry conference etc.  Again, I restate, it is our conference, it is the conference that we play in and recruit against.  Regardless of what your opinion is of the Sun Belt winning 4 bowls is a major accomplishment - one that Fry and many others who are revered around here couldn't accomplish in their time here.  4 straight Bowl games and national television appearances have done wonders for the image of this program.

-  Some have short memories.  We were - at best - an average I-AA program.  Sure we had the big upsets of downtrodden SWC team now and again, and beat a post death penalty SMU but all in all we did not win more than we lost.   Some state that Fry would have accomplished more if given the situation Dickey faced.  I have a lot of respect for Fry but it is in the very least debatable as to whether or not he would have fared any better than Dickey.  When Fry was coach, NTSU was getting the leftovers of the SWC in recruiting.  Now we have a couple dozen other BCS caliber programs recruiting in our region, not to mention CUSA/Mountain West and others.  It's a different world, it's not fair to compare them.

- I would love to see how the 2002 team would have fared against this years schedule.  Unfortunately most of the players on that team aren't here anymore.  We suffered some key losses to graduation and academics.  We are young at many positions including quarterback and the defensive line. 

- The Troy loss hurt (13-10) but I thought our defense fought hard and gave us a chance to win that game.  I am not yet ready to give up on this team and I hope that they will continue to improve as the season goes on.   I am watching the La. Tech game and the remainder of the SBC slate closely.

- It is very clear that we need help in several areas, namely the offensive and defensive lines.  This is not necessarily a Dickey phenomenon, as many mid-majors struggle to get the better linemen.  I think they landed a quality one in TJ Raymond but ended up losing him to grades.  Is this Dickey's fault?  I think it is TJ's fault primarily, but I also think that you need to have an academic support structure in place to assist the student athletes that need extra help.  

- To not think that we would hit a bump in the road along the way from where we have been was probably naive and count me among the guilty here.  The first major problem is starting a quarterback that had no college experience.  That is probably the hardest deficiency to overcome.

- I think it would be wise® to question the coaching after the season is over.  There is still a lot of football left to be played and we should assess the season in aggregate.  I  believe to start down the road of whether Dickey deserves to be here is premature.

- I share the pain of losing like we did to Tulsa at home and then Troy in front of good crowds.  Those losses sting.  I'm sure Dickey feels the same way.  As bad as those losses hurt, let's see how he and the team respond in the remainder of the season and not be too quick to judge.

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Harry,

Your points are skewed. Plus, I have never downplayed our four conference titles, the four bowl games and what they have meant to our school and program. If I have, please point this out.

I am going to respond to your post paragraph by paragraph.

1. I don't fault us being in the SBC. I am not blaming anyone for where we are, in fact, I applauded the admin for getting us in a conference with teams closer to home.

2. I have never downplayed our SBC titles. We haven't won 4 bowl games, we've won one and got beat bad in two of them and played Memphis relatively close. Please don't compare DD and Fry. They were from different eras. Look at the number of bowl games that are available now as opposed to the 70's. Fry didn't have the conference tie-in, and I would argue that NT would not have played in any bowls during the Dickey era if it weren't for the SBC creating the New Orleans Bowl. Also, don't compare recruiting. In the Fry era, teams had a scholarship limit of around 105 and this wasn't really monitored. Now the limit is 85, 20 less than when Fry was recruiting against the SWC. I would say DD recruiting against the BcS with 20 less scholarships to offer is equivalent to Fry recruiting against the SWC with 20 more scholarships. At best it is a wash.

Average I-AA program? Seems to me we were ranked in the Top 10 in I-AA and advanced to the playoffs a couple of times.

3. Yes, we are young. Again, my main complaint of DD is his lack of discipline, no creativity in the game plan, bad mouthing the fans, facilities, etc..., no in-game adjustments and a team that looks lifeless at times.

4. I will never give up on this team and I never claimed to be doing so. Again, this post was to reveal the truth behind the numbers when people throw out that DD is 29-21 over the last four years.

5. Many other mid-majors that have success successfully recruit for both lines. I know this position is a premium and we have experience along the OL this year, which makes me question the coaching. Our OL coach hasn't really produced for many winners in the past.

6. Agree

7. Agree, but I would like for the coach and his team to appear to be fired up to play.

8. The problem with those losses is that we should have never lost in the manner we did. We were totally inept against Tulsa and the offense couldn't do a thing against Troy until the end. I don't blame 18 to 22 year olds for this. I didn't see a noticable difference in talent.

Again, my point was to reveal the truth behind DD's 29-21 record, nothing else. Harry, I've never had the pleasure to meet you, but I would guess that your relationship with the Athletic Department skews your point of view from time to time and that you must be careful what you write. I understand that. I'm not trying to get in an arguement with anyone, just wanted to throw the facts out there for discussion.

Edited October 11, 2005 by UNTLifer

[OldTimer]

The best coach for this team is the one that brings in more money to the program and more fans in the stadium.  At this point, DD is that person.  We have had higher attendance in the last 4 years than in the previous 5 by a large margin.  If that trend reverses then it will be time to look for a new coach.  The key to this program really has nothing to do with wins (nice) but everything to do with money/Fan support (critical).  Let's keep that in mind.

If we can be like UTEP and get 27,000 fans in the stadium during a 2-9 season, then we have arrived as a true D1A program. 

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I understand the UTEP coach gets a bonus of $1 per ticket sold. He has beat the bushes,talking to all civic clubs, students, to get butts in the seats. I have not heard that DD is doing this, if I am wrong please let me know. I have not heard of Price dissing the fans.

[NT80]

Sorry Stan, but I would argue that through RV's efforts we have seen an increase in season tickets, fan support, etc...  The gameday event has as much to do with the increase as anything.  When has DD gone out and sold the program other than the winning records the last few years?  The point of my starting this thread was to reveal the truth behind the numbers.  With our success in the SBC the last few years, why are other teams catching and passing us by?

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Agree. I've known new fans to come because of the tailgating and game atmosphere (RV), and new fans that won't come back because of the lack of quality of the product on the field (DD).

[SilverEagle]

Agree.  I've known new fans to come because of the tailgating and game atmosphere (RV), and new fans that won't come back because of the lack of quality of the product on the field (DD).

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My old High School/College friend who has started attending games with me comes for the tailgating experience......not the quality of the football game.