Nt Football 1958: Have We Really Upgraded The Program

[Guest GrayEagleOne]

Quesiton for you Jack?

Wasn't the local aministration already fighting Coach Fry on many sides, mainly money being spent to shore things up?

Rick

That's mostly true, Rick. Hayden raised a lot of money from a few wealthy Dentonites but it wasn't enough. Hayden had some great ideas and those cost money. Jitter Nolen provided the rest in one way or another and it eventually cost him his job. He was the primary, and sometimes I felt like the only, administrator to actively support Hayden. The Denton business community, led by people like Tom Harpool and the auto dealers, were slowly beginning to help but it wasn't fast enough.

[NorthTexan95]

I think it all comes down to the same thing it always does: lack of administration support. If the administration had supported Fry he would have remained much longer and North Texas football would be much better off today.

[AnotherEagleFan]

This subject has evolved to three parts:

Have we upgraded since 1958?

In 1958 we were in a conference with Houston, Cincinnati, Tulsa, and Louisville. We had a team that went to the Sun Bowl in 1959. Abner Haynes was an all-American. We were averaging in attendance about what we are now but it seemed like more since our stadium only held 20,000. Odus Mitchell was the coach and he's in the Texas Sports Hall of Fame. So no, we're not as well off as we were in 1958.

Should we have left the Missouri Valley Conference when we did?

Absolutely. By then, Houston and Cincinnati had bailed earlier; Memphis left the year before we did; Drake's football program had tanked, came back and was tanking again; Wichita State gave up football somewhere around that time; and Louisville left the same time that we did. All that was left that play FBS today were Tulsa and New Mexico State. Even MVC basketball had dwindled greatly.

Why didn't we get in the Southwest Conference and who was against us?Hayden said it. Noone was officially against us although several sniversities, notably the privates, had factions that used the academics argument against us, it was never publicized that anyone would have blackballed us over that. It was true that it was easier to get in North Texas than most of the other current 1-A schools except UTEP and maybe Houston. Our posture was often...you may can get in but can you stay? Many flunked out during that time.

I really think that the main reason was that Houston had just become the ninth member of the SWC a couple of years before. The announced posture was that the conference wanted to try nine members for awhile since that gave them four home and four away games each year. However, at the time I believe that there were three ten team conferences (the Big 10, Pac 10, and Atlantic Coast) and no other nine team conferences so their argument was relatively weak. The other factor was that Hayden Fry left to go to Iowa drying up Rex Cauble's and Newton Rayzor's (financial) support and there was no one to take up the cause. Maybe if Hayden's successor had the stature of a Howard Schnellenberger, say, we might have eventually made it to the Southwest Conference.

And all 3 parts have been great reads.

[hickoryhouse]

For a young alum like myself this has been a great history lesson. Lots of facets to the program that I did not know existed.

[eulessismore]

For a young alum like myself this has been a great history lesson. Lots of facets to the program that I did not know existed.

I agree on the great history lesson; although I'm probably not one who most would call "young" at 61. I was in frequent attendance at the basketball games in the late 70's when I was at UNT. Since I didn't have reliable transportation in those days, trips to the Texas Stadium football games weren't something I could do at the time, so really started attending UNT football games more after the Fry years, when more were scheduled at Fouts.

I guess my overall conclusion from the thread is that administration support is key, since having just one or two major backers won't really sustain a program. If you had two, and one of them was Rex Cauble, his downfall from legal problems would have been a devastating blow. Having a greater number of supporters that a well respected and supportive president such as Gretchen Bataille should be able to bring to the table is infinitely better.

I think the one consistent element in successful programs I've read about is a head coach who stays for a long tenure. Yes, Fry took North Texas football to a higher level than before he came here, but achieved his potential at Iowa; what we need is one who achieves greatness by bringing greatness to the UNT football program. Although Dodge is probably off to a rockier start than many of us expected, I still think he is the one who can build a UNT football program of which we can all be proud. Also, the role that supporters such as those on this forum, many of us who are by no means wealthy, can play in the program's development still seems undefined. I will be interested to see what development plans, not just for football, but for the entire university community, will be forthcoming from this administration.

[ADLER]

Lot of misinformation, myth, or urban legend regarding our supposed entry into the SWC. I prefer to get the story from the horses' mouth. Hayden Fry.

Read it for youself in his autobiography. Chapter 15 North Texas State pp 89-98. Hayden Fry book

Nice guy, good football coach, but as far as being a bastion of accurate information he rivals a John Lovitz character off Saturday Night Live.

I left for Iowa because North Texas didn't get the Independence Bowl invitation. Yeah, that's the ticket.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

Nice guy, good football coach, but as far as being a bastion of accurate information he rivals a John Lovitz character off Saturday Night Live.

I left for Iowa because North Texas didn't get the Independence Bowl invitation. Yeah, that's the ticket.

--Exactly... His statements are close to the truth but not exactly as everyone else saw it... and maybe distorted some. GreyEagleOne may have told it better than I did but there is nothing that GreyEagle said that I don't agree fully with. Wichita after their plane crash in 1970 was never what they had been before and for several years after that they really suffered (all upperclassmen were gone) . They were rather weak when we left and never had a winning season until 1982... In 1986 they dropped football after I think MVC -football totally folded in 1985. Even MVC basketball is not what it was and they then added a lot of new schools including Southern Illinious and Indiana State (Larry Bird's college). Leaving the MVC was the right move. Not staying connected somehow to Memphis and Louisville may have been the mistake ...if it was possible.

---Fry was very disappointed at not being selected for a couple of bowl games (our attendence hurt us because Bowl committes liked large crowds especially in an era before ESPN and so much TV ) and one of those would have created a rematch at the Independence Bowl. We should have been selected maybe two of his years. However I really think the reason he left had more to do with not getting into the SWC and a bigger paycheck at Iowa State.

--Perhaps my original statement should have read three colleges opposed our admission instead of three college voted against us... It seems no official vote was taken because it was obviously not going to pass with three against. SMU was the most vocal of the opposition group.

Edited May 11, 2008 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[FirefightnRick]

That's mostly true, Rick. Hayden raised a lot of money from a few wealthy Dentonites but it wasn't enough. Hayden had some great ideas and those cost money. Jitter Nolen provided the rest in one way or another and it eventually cost him his job. He was the primary, and sometimes I felt like the only, administrator to actively support Hayden. The Denton business community, led by people like Tom Harpool and the auto dealers, were slowly beginning to help but it wasn't fast enough.

I truly hope the apathetic mindset that set us so far back at that time is now dead. Surely we have learned our lesson by now?

Rick

[Side Show Joe]

I truly hope the apathetic mindset that set us so far back at that time is now dead. Surely we have learned our lesson by now?

Rick

If anyone who wasn't there wants to know, here was the record for 1958...

1958 7-2-1 MVC Champions

W NT 26 Texas Western (UTEP) 8

L NT 14 Oklahoma State 21

W NT 43 New Mexico A&M (N.M.St?) 12

W NT 42 Drake 0

W NT 12 BYU 6

W NT 8 Tulsa 7

T NT 8 Cincinnati 8

L NT 13 Wichita 15

W NT 10 Houston 6

W NT 21 Louisville 10

With the exception of the loss to Wichita, playing this schedule with this record today would be fantastic in my book!

[letsgiveacheer]

Who were the Mean Green Dollies of which coach Fry speaks?

Well, I can tell you that in 1974, they were most certainly were not co-ed or else I need to re-examine some things.

The Mean Green Dollies were formed in 1974, after Maurice McAdow stepped down as director of the marching band (that is what is was called..not the Green Brigade). The Dollies were a dance team and would do a little routine at each half time show. They were dressed in revealing (for that era) lime green outfits and would do their dance to "Hello Dolly".

The 2000 fans in the stands would then applaud loudly.

[AnotherEagleFan]

How about this year.

W 09-03-1977 15 Mississippi St. 17 Starkville, MS Mississippi St. Forfeits

W 09-10-1977 41 Texas-El Paso 10 El Paso, TX

W 09-17-1977 24 Southern Methodist 13 Irving, TX

W 09-24-1977 31 West Texas A&M 20 Denton, TX

W 10-01-1977 47 Richmond (VA) 14 Richmond, VA

W 10-08-1977 27 Southern Mississippi 14 Hattiesburg, MS

W 10-15-1977 15 Texas-Arlington 6 Irving, TX

W 10-22-1977 20 Memphis (TN) 19 Memphis, TN

L 10-29-1977 14 Florida St. 35 Tallahassee, FL

W 11-05-1977 45 New Mexico St. 17 Denton, TX

W 11-19-1977 41 Louisiana Tech 14 Shreveport, LA

27-14 man ya'll even beat us in Hattiesburg.....

[untjim1995]

How about this year.

W 09-03-1977 15 Mississippi St. 17 Starkville, MS Mississippi St. Forfeits

W 09-10-1977 41 Texas-El Paso 10 El Paso, TX

W 09-17-1977 24 Southern Methodist 13 Irving, TX

W 09-24-1977 31 West Texas A&M 20 Denton, TX

W 10-01-1977 47 Richmond (VA) 14 Richmond, VA

W 10-08-1977 27 Southern Mississippi 14 Hattiesburg, MS

W 10-15-1977 15 Texas-Arlington 6 Irving, TX

W 10-22-1977 20 Memphis (TN) 19 Memphis, TN

L 10-29-1977 14 Florida St. 35 Tallahassee, FL

W 11-05-1977 45 New Mexico St. 17 Denton, TX

W 11-19-1977 41 Louisiana Tech 14 Shreveport, LA

27-14 man ya'll even beat us in Hattiesburg.....

Could you imagine the uproar that having only 2 games (out of 11) in Denton would sound like today?

[LoveMG]

Could you imagine the uproar that having only 2 games (out of 11) in Denton would sound like today?

the 3 games in Irving were very well attended.

[UNTLifer]

the 3 games in Irving were very well attended.

Yes, they were, but I'm still a fan of playing all games in Denton.

[untjim1995]

the 3 games in Irving were very well attended.

I only saw two games in Irving listed, but I am sure that they were well-attended, since they involved two other Metroplex teams. I imagine the SMU game was big just because they were making their way back to the top with $$ and Texas Stadium was their home stadium at the time. I was just imaging what the folks would say now, in 2008, if we only had 4 "home" games, of which two were scheduled at Fouts. I do still think that scheduling a game at Texas Stadium/ JErry World/ Cotton Bowl to play a huge team would be great for UNT. I still think that a "home" game against a huge Big Ten team or Pac-10 team could be done. This would be a nice in-road for recruiting for those schools. I could see us playing a Michigan or Penn State or UCLA one day if we scheduled it correctly (2 for 1). Could you imagine the attention that a local game against a ranked team like Ohio State would bring. Heck, even Iowa or Purdue or a team like West Virginia or Louisville would be absolutely great teams for our program to get to play down here. Of course, all of this would probably not be necessary if a new stadium does get built in the future to accomodate the bigger crowds.

[SilverEagle]

Well, I can tell you that in 1974, they were most certainly were not co-ed or else I need to re-examine some things.

The Mean Green Dollies were formed in 1974, after Maurice McAdow stepped down as director of the marching band (that is what is was called..not the Green Brigade). The Dollies were a dance team and would do a little routine at each half time show. They were dressed in revealing (for that era) lime green outfits and would do their dance to "Hello Dolly".

The 2000 fans in the stands would then applaud loudly.

The Dollies = The North Texas Dance Team. They just haven't been called "Dollies" for quite some time.

[Arkstfan]

There was a big difference between 1958 and today.

The SWC and SEC were still 8 years away from taking their first black player and longer than that from the powerhouse schools integrating football.

UNT was basically signing best available while the peer SEC and SWC schools were only looking at half of the best available players.

[filmerj]

Yes, they were, but I'm still a fan of playing all games in Denton.

The Denton Community doesn't care, they don't support the school even though the town would not exist if it weren't for the school. Why help the economy there by playing football games there. More fans may show up if game were played in Arlington.. don't really know what I am saying just pissed at the city of denton and their attitude.

[NT80]

The Denton Community doesn't care, they don't support the school even though the town would not exist if it weren't for the school. Why help the economy there by playing football games there. More fans may show up if game were played in Arlington.. don't really know what I am saying just pissed at the city of denton and their attitude.

For a college town, Denton overall has been a poor fan supporter of UNT. The reasons are numerous, from Old nestors that don't like the noise made from the events and publicity, to the many newbie moveins with no connection to college sports or UNT (and not invited to), to the biggest reason for Denton's lack of town support...TWU in the same town. I've heard many business owners don't want to show support for UNT because it might look like a slight to TWU, and they can't afford to support both or alienate either.

If Denton was a one-college town I know they would support it better like a Stillwater, Waco, Lubbock, Norman, etc. I have always pushed for the Texas Legislature to merge TWU into UNT to form one large quality State University in the same town. Why duplicate State higher education Departments, buildings and staff 5 miles apart?? It make no sense from a state-funded budget system that says it's short on $$.

Edited May 17, 2008 by NT80

[Guest GrayEagleOne]

For a college town, Denton overall has been a poor fan supporter of UNT. The reasons are numerous, from Old nestors that don't like the noise made from the events and publicity, to the many newbie moveins with no connection to college sports or UNT (and not invited to), to the biggest reason for Denton's lack of town support...TWU in the same town. I've heard many business owners don't want to show support for UNT because it might look like a slight to TWU, and they can't afford to support both or alienate either.

If Denton was a one-college town I know they would support it better like a Stillwater, Waco, Lubbock, Norman, etc. I have always pushed for the Texas Legislature to merge TWU into UNT to form one large quality State University in the same town. Why duplicate State higher education Departments, buildings and staff 5 miles apart?? It make no sense from a state-funded budget system that says it's short on $$.

It makes a lot of sense but politics would never allow it.

In this day and time a "Women's" university is discriminatory. Then again, it would kill state African-American schools such as Prairie View and Texas Southern. All three have less than 10% of the opposite gender/race. It would be economically advantageous for all three to be merged into other institutions. TSU could become a satellite campus of the University of Houston and TWU another campus of the University of North Texas. Prairie View is a little more enigmatic in that it has a long history and doesn't really have a place to go.

But I have long envisioned the Denton campuses connected by a tram, with different Colleges or Schools at each campus. After a student's sophomore year far less movement would be required so the operating costs of the tram would be paid for in savings of less administration, faculty and staff and negating the need for new buildings as often.

[eulessismore]

But I have long envisioned the Denton campuses connected by a tram, with different Colleges or Schools at each campus. After a student's sophomore year far less movement would be required so the operating costs of the tram would be paid for in savings of less administration, faculty and staff and negating the need for new buildings as often.

There you go, GrayEagleOne, I've had similar thoughts. Some kind of transit system connecting the two would certainly make that easier; the sooner plans for get started for that, the better. It would be much easier to justify a school of architecture (my proposal for the next new "school"), if it were proposed as a cooperative program between the two. Winston-Salem, North Carolina has two schools that make the best of a similar situation, although their combined enrollments are a fraction of UNT/TWU. There, a private women's school, Salem College (oldest women's college in the country), and Wake Forest U., cooperate in making programs at Wake Forest which aren't available at Salem, open for enrollment to Salem students. Also, Salem students are welcome to join the Wake Forest marching band, and are enthusiastic supporters of Wake Forest football.

[NT80]

But I have long envisioned the Denton campuses connected by a tram, with different Colleges or Schools at each campus. After a student's sophomore year far less movement would be required so the operating costs of the tram would be paid for in savings of less administration, faculty and staff and negating the need for new buildings as often.

There is a University in the East (North Carolina?, maybe Clemson?) that has a split campus, I remember seeing how it was like this same situation. They had a North and South campus connected by tram/shuttle bus.

Edited May 18, 2008 by NT80

[Arkstfan]

There is a University in the East (North Carolina?, maybe Clemson?) that has a split campus, I remember seeing how it was like this same situation. They had a North and South campus connected by tram/shuttle bus.

Minnesota is divided into three campuses, Minneapolis West Bank, East Bank, and St. Paul.