Should we be worried?

BillySee58 · December 14, 2016

12 hours ago, MeanGreenHoops said:

Really solid post, but I want to point out your point and everyone elses counterpoint imo are flawed.

The only local kids we should be recruiting are guys who want to stay near home, a kid like Brandon Garner was. Otherwise, the opinion of everyone who knows UNT athletics, including most of it's alums which live locally is it's terrible. Regardless of facts. Anyone recruited to UNT from say Coppell is going to hear from everyone else around them that the school is terrible.

I'd rather we recruit outside the metroplex and Oklahoma, where people don't really have as much of an opinion.

The only type of person who could overcome that would be a football Jesus. Someone like Todd Dodge who was able to get good recruits because everyone in the state thought he was good and would win. Otherwise, it's a losing battle until perception changes.

I was in high school during the Dodge years. One of my teammate's older brother and a running back signed from my school under Dodge in 2008. Six of my teammates were offered by UNT with two signing here and the other ones choosing BCS/P5 offers over UNT. Two guys from my high school signed with UNT this past class.

The perception throughout my high school years for those guys was that UNT was a good opportunity to stay close to home and make a big impact, for kids who didn't have BCS/P5 offers. There was no one telling these kids to not consider UNT.

Who would've told them negative things about UNT? The coaches do their homework and look at the current situation for the recruits, and other parents don't even really know that much about all the schools that are recruiting their kids' teammates. And even if they do, they don't have the gumption to tell a kid not to consider a school who has offered them. And the actual recruits parents care enough about their kids future then to just disregard a full scholarship offer because of what they have heard or seen in the past from a school. Especially if they don't have obviously better options, like perennial top 25 teams from P5 conferences.

Good recruiters can get quality G5 recruits to come here. Period. They get to paint the picture to recruits on what UNT is.

Current recruits most likely have never heard of Dan Mccarney. Their college football exposure is Ohio State, Alabama, Florida State, Lamar Jackson, etc. They don't even have the NCAA football game anymore to goof around with teams they have never heard of. And in an era where people get to choose what, where, and when they consume media, they most likely aren't stumbling upon our game on Bein sports network. Their perception of UNT is almost exclusively what our coaches can sell to them.

This idea that our history kills our recruiting to the extent some people act like it does is ridiculous. We have had bad recruiting and bad recruiters lately. Guys like PJ Fleck and Tom Herman would've been able to get top-of-the-conference classes here, and Frank Wilson would have a class up there as well. They know how to get recruits to buy what they're selling at an elite level.

We haven't had that. That's the problem. Not some random person catching wind of us offering a kid and badmouthing us to them.

MeanGreenHoops · December 14, 2016

10 hours ago, BillySee58 said:

I was in high school during the Dodge years. One of my teammate's older brother and a running back signed from my school under Dodge in 2008. Six of my teammates were offered by UNT with two signing here and the other ones choosing BCS/P5 offers over UNT. Two guys from my high school signed with UNT this past class.

The perception throughout my high school years for those guys was that UNT was a good opportunity to stay close to home and make a big impact, for kids who didn't have BCS/P5 offers. There was no one telling these kids to not consider UNT.

Who would've told them negative things about UNT? The coaches do their homework and look at the current situation for the recruits, and other parents don't even really know that much about all the schools that are recruiting their kids' teammates. And even if they do, they don't have the gumption to tell a kid not to consider a school who has offered them. And the actual recruits parents care enough about their kids future then to just disregard a full scholarship offer because of what they have heard or seen in the past from a school. Especially if they don't have obviously better options, like perennial top 25 teams from P5 conferences.

Good recruiters can get quality G5 recruits to come here. Period. They get to paint the picture to recruits on what UNT is.

Current recruits most likely have never heard of Dan Mccarney. Their college football exposure is Ohio State, Alabama, Florida State, Lamar Jackson, etc. They don't even have the NCAA football game anymore to goof around with teams they have never heard of. And in an era where people get to choose what, where, and when they consume media, they most likely aren't stumbling upon our game on Bein sports network. Their perception of UNT is almost exclusively what our coaches can sell to them.

This idea that our history kills our recruiting to the extent some people act like it does is ridiculous. We have had bad recruiting and bad recruiters lately. Guys like PJ Fleck and Tom Herman would've been able to get top-of-the-conference classes here, and Frank Wilson would have a class up there as well. They know how to get recruits to buy what they're selling at an elite level.

We haven't had that. That's the problem. Not some random person catching wind of us offering a kid and badmouthing us to them.

Thanks for the insight on Dodge. My theory is just a theory. It's difficult to express here without moving into tl;dr territory. It has more to do with what I've heard over the years of we have so much talent here in our own backyard, juxtaposed with the general perception of the brand in that same area being that it is sour.

Basically, everyone else is also recruiting those same people, and we rarely beat out anyone else for these top recruits. When we do there is extenuating circumstances many times as the reason why.

I didn't mean random people discouraging it, I meant more their friends and peep pressure. We are having a party and no one is coming. No one is coming because no one is there. Somehow, you have to make it a party people want to be attending.

My point was it is easier to paint that picture to someone who is say in Houston where UNT is rarely talked about and none of that kids circle of friends/family really has an opinion.

For me, if we don't have good recruiters, then focus there where it will be easier to win (if only a little bit).

I think the psychology of it is playing more into it than some realize.

Wag Tag · December 14, 2016

10 hours ago, BillySee58 said:

I was in high school during the Dodge years. One of my teammate's older brother and a running back signed from my school under Dodge in 2008. Six of my teammates were offered by UNT with two signing here and the other ones choosing BCS/P5 offers over UNT. Two guys from my high school signed with UNT this past class.

The perception throughout my high school years for those guys was that UNT was a good opportunity to stay close to home and make a big impact, for kids who didn't have BCS/P5 offers. There was no one telling these kids to not consider UNT.

Who would've told them negative things about UNT? The coaches do their homework and look at the current situation for the recruits, and other parents don't even really know that much about all the schools that are recruiting their kids' teammates. And even if they do, they don't have the gumption to tell a kid not to consider a school who has offered them. And the actual recruits parents care enough about their kids future then to just disregard a full scholarship offer because of what they have heard or seen in the past from a school. Especially if they don't have obviously better options, like perennial top 25 teams from P5 conferences.

Good recruiters can get quality G5 recruits to come here. Period. They get to paint the picture to recruits on what UNT is.

Current recruits most likely have never heard of Dan Mccarney. Their college football exposure is Ohio State, Alabama, Florida State, Lamar Jackson, etc. They don't even have the NCAA football game anymore to goof around with teams they have never heard of. And in an era where people get to choose what, where, and when they consume media, they most likely aren't stumbling upon our game on Bein sports network. Their perception of UNT is almost exclusively what our coaches can sell to them.

This idea that our history kills our recruiting to the extent some people act like it does is ridiculous. We have had bad recruiting and bad recruiters lately. Guys like PJ Fleck and Tom Herman would've been able to get top-of-the-conference classes here, and Frank Wilson would have a class up there as well. They know how to get recruits to buy what they're selling at an elite level.

We haven't had that. That's the problem. Not some random person catching wind of us offering a kid and badmouthing us to them.

My question would be what is the most important factor to a recruit with offers from similar level schools? To me it would have to be the coaching connection, playing time, location,and then facilities. Most the kids don't realize that where you go to school has a large impact of where you will settle down. It would be very hard for any G5 to compete with our proximity to Dallas and now we have the APR promote. We know Seth can coach and now he has to prove he can recruit!

Ben Gooding · December 14, 2016

9 minutes ago, Wag Tag said:

My question would be what is the most important factor to a recruit with offers from similar level schools? To me it would have to be the coaching connection, playing time, location,and then facilities. Most the kids don't realize that where you go to school has a large impact of where you will settle down. It would be very hard for any G5 to compete with our proximity to Dallas and now we have the APR promote. We know Seth can coach and now he has to prove he can recruit!

Too early to say either of these. We know he can have moderate success with teams with equal or lesser talent. We know that he can't coach his players up to play out of their talent range (hence why this class is so damn important) and we know that he can also shit the bed in prepping his team vs lesser competition vs the likes of Rice, UTEP, and maybe even utsa. The jury is still out on whether he can coach or not, IMO. The jury is still out on if he can recruit. This class will help solidify a decision on recruiting, but not necessarily be the end all. I think next season, with hopefully better athletes in place, we'll have more of an idea of what he can do on game day as well. Right now, it's way too early to crown him as good or bad at anything. But there are obvious red flags on both sides of coaching and recruiting.

Back to the thread title, I think it is time to be worried.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Ben Gooding

Wag Tag · December 14, 2016

If you look at his past stops and what he has done this year he proves to be a good coach. What was your W/L for this year? You look where WM is this year in the rankings and he is pulling off maybe a top 40 class Again! We have everything in place except an IPF to be successfull! I am also concerned! GMG

BillySee58 · December 14, 2016

30 minutes ago, MeanGreenHoops said:

Thanks for the insight on Dodge. My theory is just a theory. It's difficult to express here without moving into tl;dr territory. It has more to do with what I've heard over the years of we have so much talent here in our own backyard, juxtaposed with the general perception of the brand in that same area being that it is sour.

Basically, everyone else is also recruiting those same people, and we rarely beat out anyone else for these top recruits. When we do there is extenuating circumstances many times as the reason why.

I didn't mean random people discouraging it, I meant more their friends and peep pressure. We are having a party and no one is coming. No one is coming because no one is there. Somehow, you have to make it a party people want to be attending.

My point was it is easier to paint that picture to someone who is say in Houston where UNT is rarely talked about and none of that kids circle of friends/family really has an opinion.

For me, if we don't have good recruiters, then focus there where it will be easier to win (if only a little bit).

I think the psychology of it is playing more into it than some realize.

As a friend of guys who were getting recruited by North Texas, no one was bad mouthing North Texas to them because no one was talking about North Texas at all. And when they did start considering North Texas people didn't start discouraging them from going there.

I get the sentiment in what you're saying, but if you can't win recruiting battles you are going to struggle doing so anywhere, regardless of outside general perception in that area.

I think you'd be surprised how little the DFW kids we recruit really know about us or have talked about us before we offer them.

29 minutes ago, Wag Tag said:

My question would be what is the most important factor to a recruit with offers from similar level schools? To me it would have to be the coaching connection, playing time, location,and then facilities. Most the kids don't realize that where you go to school has a large impact of where you will settle down. It would be very hard for any G5 to compete with our proximity to Dallas and now we have the APR promote. We know Seth can coach and now he has to prove he can recruit!

Every kid is going to be different, but it's on the coaches to get the kids to buy in to what it is they feel is important to them.