DRC: UNT's post-spring depth chart with thoughts

[MeanGreenTexan]

17 minutes ago, MGNation92 said:

My argument is that Mason Fine is predictable and has shown no visible signs of improving. I have no idea what Shanbour, Isadore, or Pearson bring.

I'm just saying that Fine's season last year should look abysmal compared to whoever the QB is this year. Would I like to see Shanbour in extended game time? Absolutely. Would also love to see Isadore in a live game. Nobody knows what they have because the staff is sticking with Fine. 

When Fine got hurt, Morris came in immediately and looked better. Who's to say one of the other guys can't do the same

My counter-argument is that Mason is not predictable (how can he be?) and how much time has he had to improve?  He's been on campus less than a year.  
Give him time to get better!   And I agree (at least, I hope) that Fine's 2016 will look terrible against his 2017, and even worse against his 2018 & 2019... because he'll be improving.

I keep going back to Freshman QB Nick Mullens looking MUCH DIFFERENT than Senior QB Nick Mullens.  And, by the way, both of them were named to the C-USA Freshman all-conference team (Mullens:2013, Fine:2016).  This comparison is apt to the situation we're in.

Morris began the year looking much worse than Fine.  Littrell agreed, that's why Fine didn't get a redshirt that it appears he really needed.   I'm glad Morris was able to learn the system well enough to be a contributor at the end of the year when we needed him to be.  But he was not what was expected from a grad transfer from Alabama.

Just now, Ben Gooding said:

True. But Morris looked very serviceable vs Army while playing from behind the entire game and getting minimal reps because of Army's option offense. He was running a very predictable offense in that game out of necessity and was still having success. From what we saw throughout the year from Fine, that game would have been in the bag when we were down 24-7. 26/38 304 yards 3td 1 int is fantastic given we were down 24-7 at one point in this game. This should tell you that Army was pinning ears because they knew the ball was being put in the air. IMHO, Fine doesn't have the capability of this kind of success. 

Ever?   Or are you only talking about last year's Fine?

[Ben Gooding]

13 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

My counter-argument is that Mason is not predictable (how can he be?) and how much time has he had to improve?  He's been on campus less than a year.  
Give him time to get better!   And I agree (at least, I hope) that Fine's 2016 will look terrible against his 2017, and even worse against his 2018 & 2019... because he'll be improving.

I keep going back to Freshman QB Nick Mullens looking MUCH DIFFERENT than Senior QB Nick Mullens.  And, by the way, both of them were named to the C-USA Freshman all-conference team (Mullens:2013, Fine:2016).  This comparison is apt to the situation we're in.

Morris began the year looking much worse than Fine.  Littrell agreed, that's why Fine didn't get a redshirt that it appears he really needed.   I'm glad Morris was able to learn the system well enough to be a contributor at the end of the year when we needed him to be.  But he was not what was expected from a grad transfer from Alabama.

Ever?   Or are you only talking about last year's Fine?

I think ever. He doesn't have the moxy to stand up in the pocket, eye his target and accurately put the ball on target. Not that I have seen anyway. Have you seen it? He gets balls batted, which is not going to stop. He tip toes around and either gets sacked for a 5 or 6 yard loss or runs for his life for a 1 yard gain. His arm strength is questionable and his accuracy is sporadic. Look, I don't dislike him. He seems like a fine kid. I am just stating observations. 

Edited May 23, 2017 by Ben Gooding

[MeanGreenTexan]

2 minutes ago, Ben Gooding said:

I think ever. He doesn't have the moxy to stand up in the pocket, eye his target and accurately put the ball on target. Not that I have seen anyway. Have you seen it? He gets balls batted, which is going to stop. He tip toes around and either gets sacked for a 5 or 6 yard loss or runs for his life for a 1 yard gain. His arm strength is questionable and his accuracy is sporadic. Look, I don't dislike him. He seems like a fine kid. I am just stating observations. 

None of this is normal for an 18-yr-old playing his first year when he should be redshirting?

[UNTLifer]

6 hours ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

The Spring Game?  Are you kidding me?  The Spring Game?

Yes, I'm referring to Shanbour.  And yes, when he's playing against other teams that are scheming to stop him and not just working on things you work on during a Spring Game, he absolutely has shown time and again that he bails on a play way too early to run.  And his body of work is much longer than just a true freshman year.

Shanbour has thrown one pass since arriving here.  What body of work are you referencing?

[Ben Gooding]

Just now, MeanGreenTexan said:

None of this is normal for an 18-yr-old playing his first year when he should be redshirting?

I don't care about his age. That is not my problem or concern. He's being put out there to start so the coaches think he can perform at the expected level. He didn't perform. So if he's not ready he should have not been put out there. If it's going to be more of the same this year, he shouldn't be put out there this year either. 

[MeanGreenTexan]

Just now, Ben Gooding said:

I don't care about his age. That is not my problem or concern. He's being put out there to start so the coaches think he can perform at the expected level. He didn't perform. So if he's not ready he should have not been put out there. If it's going to be more of the same this year, he shouldn't be put out there this year either. 

Million-dollar question here.
I'm betting he'll improve over the offseason (which includes the entire offseason).  You, and several others are ready to throw him out.

[Ben Gooding]

9 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Million-dollar question here.
I'm betting he'll improve over the offseason (which includes the entire offseason).  You, and several others are ready to throw him out.

Improvement would be 7 touchdowns. We can say he played around 10 full games on the year. Take away the entire bowl game, WKU game, and even the SMU game. He threw for 1572 yards in those 10 games, or 157.2 yards per game. So for him to improve he would need to throw for 160 yards a game and 7 touchdowns. We need a competitive (aka not garbage time yards) 225 yards a game in the air for our running lanes to really open up for Wilson and Co. Do you think he'll be capable of 225 yards a game? And his 157.2 yards a game was on 26.1 attempts per game. We have to get more efficient. And I don't think he is capable of it, physically. 

Edited May 23, 2017 by Ben Gooding

[MGNation92]

4 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Million-dollar question here.
I'm betting he'll improve over the offseason (which includes the entire offseason).  You, and several others are ready to throw him out.

Well he got outperformed(badly I might add) by a true freshman and a "guy who tucks and runs too early" in the spring game.

BUT ITS A SPRING GAME.

Ok great. The point is after a full season of work plus a spring, he still got outplayed by two other "lesser'' players. Are you gonna say BUT LAMAR if Fine goes 8/20 for 120 yards and 1 TD and 1 INT? Because that's what he did as of recently

[NeonGreen]

5 hours ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

  But, much like Dajon Williams' game against Nicholls St. was a mirage, you can't look at one Spring Practice stat line and say he's an amazing QB.

And you can't just look at what's on paper and evaluate a kid like Vito does all the while ignoring what he is doing in practice and scrimmages. I am no fan of Shanbour or any other player for that matter. That being said, every time I have watched a practice or seen a scrimmage, he seems to stand out among the others. And with Harrell and Littrell speaking highly of him (see coaches caravan), I just think it is odd why Vito and you go out of your way to discount his abilities and effectiveness. Again I am not a Shanbour or Fine band wagoner . I just want to see the one who can best move the ball for UNT out there. UNT all the way!

[MeanGreenTexan]

18 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

Shanbour has thrown one pass since arriving here.  What body of work are you referencing?

You're right.  My bad for mentioning other teams.   He's not done well enough during his 3 years here to get in against other teams.  And his stat line for that game shows 2 dropbacks VS WKU's 3rd string defense: an incomplete pass and a tuck-&-run for 0 yds. 
Once it was determined Morris was not cutting it VS SMU, why wouldn't Littrell go with Shanbour there?  The promise of what Fine can be exceeds any of the other QBs.  He had to take lumps... and he certainly did.

 

6 minutes ago, Ben Gooding said:

Improvement would be 7 touchdowns. We can say he played around 10 full games on the year. Take away the entire bowl game, WKU game, and even the SMU game. He threw for 1572 yards in those 10 games, or 157.2 yards per game. So for him to improve he would need to throw for 160 yards a game and 7 touchdowns. We need a competitive (aka not garbage time yards) 225 yards a game in the air for our running lanes to really open up for Wilson and Co. Do you think he'll be capable of 225 yards a game? 

If you're taking out the SMU 4th quarter & the beginning of the WKU game, he played in 8 games (186yds/gm)... one of which was his 2nd start against one of the best college defenses in all of NCAA last year (FL), where he was annihilated (66yds 0TD/1INT), but demonstrated serious toughness... galvanizing the team around him and his leadership.    So, yes.  I think over 200yds/gm would not be too difficult for an improved Fine to hit.

14 minutes ago, MGNation92 said:

Well he got outperformed(badly I might add) by a true freshman and a "guy who tucks and runs too early" in the spring game.

BUT ITS A SPRING GAME.

Ok great. The point is after a full season of work plus a spring, he still got outplayed by two other "lesser'' players. Are you gonna say BUT LAMAR if Fine goes 8/20 for 120 yards and 1 TD and 1 INT? Because that's what he did as of recently

It is hard for me to understand how anyone could possibly decide the pecking order using stats from a Spring Game in a vaccuum.  I'm glad Littrell didn't when he named Fine the starter after that same spring game.

If Fine goes 8/20 for 120/1/1 VS Lamar,  I'll be the first to down a Pancho's Buffet of crow and call for Shanbour/Izzy/Pearson to relieve Fine.  I do not believe that will happen... at all.

[Ben Gooding]

@MeanGreenTexan 

A good stat line for him would be the @Rice game of 2016. 17/29 225 yards 1 td 0 int. Right now, with this RB corp, that's all we need him to be. Also, the sacks have to drop. I know people like to jump on the OL, and rightfully so from time to time. But many of the sacks were on him. Graham Harrell on BTG was on hit butt all the time about tapping on the ball and not getting it out. I am not saying it's an impossibility of him improving, but I just think from what I have seen so far, paired with the spring game, it's at least concerning. We need 60% completion at 225 ypg, 2/1 td ratio, and minimal sacks. If he produces this, we will have a very productive season and many will be pleased. 

 

[MeanGreenTexan]

8 minutes ago, NeonGreen said:

And you can't just look at what's on paper and evaluate a kid like Vito does all the while ignoring what he is doing in practice and scrimmages. I am no fan of Shanbour or any other player for that matter. That being said, every time I have watched a practice or seen a scrimmage, he seems to stand out among the others. And with Harrell and Littrell speaking highly of him (see coaches caravan), I just think it is odd why Vito and you go out of your way to discount his abilities and effectiveness. Again I am not a Shanbour or Fine band wagoner . I just want to see the one who can best move the ball for UNT out there. UNT all the way!

Shanbour is certainly the smartest QB out there.   He understands what's going on around him.   I wish he wouldn't bail on plays as much as he does.  Several of his highlights during the spring were him running... with a red jersey on... where he can't be lit up by a LB bearing down on him. 
He's been here for 3 years.  2 different OC's, neither felt comfortable putting him in a game with anything on the line.
What on Earth are Harrell and Littrell supposed to say when asked about him?   Of course they're going to say positive things about him!  They're going to say positive things about ALL of their guys!
I also want to see who can best move the ball.  If the coaches decide that 9/2 VS Lamar, the QB is Shanbour/Izzy/Pearson, I'm rooting for their success, and I wouldn't care how Fine feels about it...  That means he didn't do enough during the fall to hold onto his job.  And if I know anything about Shanbour, it's that he's going to work hard.  Fine will have to outwork him.
 

3 minutes ago, Ben Gooding said:

@MeanGreenTexan 

A good stat line for him would be the @Rice game of 2016. 17/29 225 yards 1 td 0 int. Right now, with this RB corp, that's all we need him to be. Also, the sacks have to drop. I know people like to jump on the OL, and rightfully so from time to time. But many of the sacks were on him. Graham Harrell on BTG was on hit butt all the time about tapping on the ball and not getting it out. I am not saying it's an impossibility of him improving, but I just think from what I have seen so far, paired with the spring game, it's at least concerning. We need 60% completion at 225 ypg, 2/1 td ratio, and minimal sacks. If he produces this, we will have a very productive season and many will be pleased. 

 

I don't think this is asking too much from him in his second year.

[Cerebus]

Freshman QB's can improve greatly by the time their Junior and Senior years roll around, for example: Scott Hall.

[TheReal_jayD]

4 hours ago, MGNation92 said:

My argument is that Mason Fine is predictable and has shown no visible signs of improving. I have no idea what Shanbour, Isadore, or Pearson bring.

I'm just saying that Fine's season last year should look abysmal compared to whoever the QB is this year. Would I like to see Shanbour in extended game time? Absolutely. Would also love to see Isadore in a live game. Nobody knows what they have because the staff is sticking with Fine. 

When Fine got hurt, Morris came in immediately and looked better. Who's to say one of the other guys can't do the same

Paitence man. Fine was a true freshman with 2 months in Littrell system when first start. Spring game he was 100% still. He will be ready come September. Line will be better. Wilson will be healthy. Reciever will be better as a unit. Just give it time....

[Side Show Joe]

Sophomore Bussey is starting at WR ahead of Smiley. I think very highly of Bussey. I knew what North Texas was getting when we signed him. I think this might say a lot about how talented this year's WRs could be.

[MGNation92]

17 hours ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

My counter-argument is that Mason is not predictable (how can he be?) and how much time has he had to improve?  He's been on campus less than a year.  
Give him time to get better!   And I agree (at least, I hope) that Fine's 2016 will look terrible against his 2017, and even worse against his 2018 & 2019... because he'll be improving.
 

There's probably a 50% chance of one of the three happening with Fine:

1) Swing pass to RB that he motions out pre snap(If defense is in zone)

2) QB Draw on same play(if defense is in man)

3) Sack/Batted Ball

Seems pretty predictable to me.

Maybe it's Harrell not putting him in the best situations as a playcaller. Like I said I will be curious as to what they do when defenses take away the binky of the swing pass/QB draw. Will he be able to do anything else consistently well? We'll see

[Aldo]

17 hours ago, Ben Gooding said:

@MeanGreenTexan 

A good stat line for him would be the @Rice game of 2016. 17/29 225 yards 1 td 0 int. Right now, with this RB corp, that's all we need him to be. Also, the sacks have to drop. I know people like to jump on the OL, and rightfully so from time to time. But many of the sacks were on him. Graham Harrell on BTG was on hit butt all the time about tapping on the ball and not getting it out. I am not saying it's an impossibility of him improving, but I just think from what I have seen so far, paired with the spring game, it's at least concerning. We need 60% completion at 225 ypg, 2/1 td ratio, and minimal sacks. If he produces this, we will have a very productive season and many will be pleased. 

 

^ Totally right. I understand inconsistency rearing it's ugly head does not bode well Fine, and we just have to wait and see come Fall practice.

32 minutes ago, MGNation92 said:

There's probably a 50% chance of one of the three happening with Fine:

1) Swing pass to RB that he motions out pre snap(If defense is in zone)

2) QB Draw on same play(if defense is in man)

3) Sack/Batted Ball

Seems pretty predictable to me.

That's the playbook for each QB. Shanbour had the same plays dialed up in the Spring game, and he made the same mistakes he made last year on those swing passes. 

Fine didn't get outperformed because none of the QBs looked good. Off target, running for their lives, hesitating on throws leading to hits on receivers as soon as they caught it. That last part is the worst for me because there were hardly any yards after catch on any throws during the Spring game.

That's what this offense thrives on, and if none of the QBs can fix this, it is going to be a painful second year.

[outoftown]

20 hours ago, Side Show Joe said:

Sophomore Bussey is starting at WR ahead of Smiley. I think very highly of Bussey. I knew what North Texas was getting when we signed him. I think this might say a lot about how talented this year's WRs could be.

I can't help but think, that this is primarily to light a fire under MR Smiley.

[MGNation92]

46 minutes ago, outoftown said:

I can't help but think, that this is primarily to light a fire under MR Smiley.

Also find it curious that Minor is now starting over Wheeler. Wonder if it's a similar situation there.

I've always been a fan of Minor, but Wheeler was pretty solid last season

[jtm0097]

People bashing our true freshman QB are which of the following?

A. Ignorant 

B. Don't understand the speed of the game difference between high school and college football.

C. Have very little patience.

D. All of the above.

Edited May 24, 2017 by jtm0097

[Ben Gooding]

1 minute ago, jtm0097 said:

People bashing our true freshman QB are  which of the following?

A. Ignorant 

B. Don't understand the speed difference between high school and college football.

C. Have very little patience.

D. All of the above.

[outoftown]

12 minutes ago, jtm0097 said:

People bashing our true freshman QB are which of the following?

A. Ignorant 

B. Don't understand the speed of the game difference between high school and college football.

C. Have very little patience.

D. All of the above.

I would also suggest

E. Can remember a steady row of professed savior QBs who did not deliver as everyone said they would

or

F: can remember Riley Dodges story a bit too well.

 

Edited May 24, 2017 by outoftown

[Aldo]

3 hours ago, outoftown said:

E. Can remember a steady row of professed savior QBs who did not deliver as everyone said they would

I think the only ones calling him a savior are the ones criticizing calling him a savior in order to make the point that we shouldn't call him a savior.

It's been pretty much the mainstream suggestion on here that Fine struggled in 2016, showed some flashes here and there, but has room to improve.

Can we move on?

[Ben Gooding]

38 minutes ago, Aldo said:

I think the only ones calling him a savior are the ones criticizing calling him a savior in order to make the point that we shouldn't call him a savior.

It's been pretty much the mainstream suggestion on here that Fine struggled in 2016, showed some flashes here and there, but has room to improve.

Can we move on?

I mean we can, but to what?  It's the offseason and we have question marks there at that position. 

[Aldo]

21 minutes ago, Ben Gooding said:

I mean we can, but to what?  It's the offseason and we have question marks there at that position. 

move on that we know he's not a savior