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Baylor Problems Worsen... A Lot.


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9 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

Not necessarily on this issue, but:

THIS!

The whole "you will be punishing kids who weren't there" is a crap argument. The NCAA would be punishing THE INSTITUTION! 

 

That argument wasn't made. Just that it's unfortunate the people who get the brunt of the punishment are not going to be the ones most guilty. It's unfortunate because the optimal justice can't realistically be served at this point. Saying something is unfortunate doesn't mean an argument of no punishment for the university was made.

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26 minutes ago, BillySee58 said:

That argument wasn't made. Just that it's unfortunate the people who get the brunt of the punishment are not going to be the ones most guilty. It's unfortunate because the optimal justice can't realistically be served at this point. Saying something is unfortunate doesn't mean an argument of no punishment for the university was made.

My comments weren't directed toward this particular situation.

But when it comes to Pedo St. and the massive cover up perpetrated by THE INSTITUTION, that institution should have been given the death penalty. 

Instead they were given nothing and suffered zero consequences. 

The rich rarely do

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3 hours ago, BillySee58 said:

That argument wasn't made. Just that it's unfortunate the people who get the brunt of the punishment are not going to be the ones most guilty. It's unfortunate because the optimal justice can't realistically be served at this point. Saying something is unfortunate doesn't mean an argument of no punishment for the university was made.

I think the rules/bans/fines should be stuck like glue to the head coach, school. AD, and anyone willing to hire them before their sentence is served. Make the sanctions hit the coaches and follow them to new schools.

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2 hours ago, Mean Green 93-98 said:

Punishing Baylor is one thing.  But how do you change the system . . . as in, FBS football, particularly P5 football, across the board . . . so coaches and colleges aren't tempted to tolerate, much less promote, this kind of behavior?

 By pretty much tearing it all down to the foundation and rebuilding the entire structure of how college football works. Which nobody wants to even talk about, let alone actually do. Too much money involved and connected to too many people and too much money to be made off of all of it, all on the backs of a bunch of 18-22 year olds. And too many grown-ass adults with too much money who want to glorify and perpetuate jock culture that they're either long past or never got to be a part of to begin with.

 

Here's an idea to rein in a lot of problems:

Don't let athletes live off campus. Too many times have I heard of crap going down at some athlete's apartment of a house where a bunch of them live together. If they're in a dorm and have a curfew it narrows down the chances for someone to act like an idiot. I don't care if you're a senior. 

Let college athletes have friggin' part time jobs if they want! UNT kids stealin' TV's because they're bored, TCU kids dealin' pot because they couldn't afford gas money. How many countless times have we heard stories about athletes who couldn't afford to travel home over the winter break. And I mean like driving from Denton to Houston. Or kids who couldn't afford to eat on the weekends. It'll also set athletes up for after graduation: a lot of guys never have a real job in high school because of the protectionism people lay on high school athletes and then they're forbidden from having a job in college. That's eight years of work experience they've misses out on.


 

 

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6 hours ago, BillySee58 said:

The coaches, AD, and President who that occurred under are gone. If the parents thought long and hard about it they would see the people currently in those positions had nothing to do with that situation

They'd be punishing the people who had nothing to do with it, unfortunately.

Any coach/player who signed on with Baylor after the s*** hit the fan had to see the dark cloud hanging over the program.   For the players who signed prior-to, sure!  The NCAA has been very lenient in granting players releases for transfer with immediate eligibility in those cases.

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7 hours ago, TheWestie said:

Let college athletes have friggin' part time jobs if they want! UNT kids stealin' TV's because they're bored, TCU kids dealin' pot because they couldn't afford gas money. How many countless times have we heard stories about athletes who couldn't afford to travel home over the winter break. And I mean like driving from Denton to Houston. Or kids who couldn't afford to eat on the weekends. It'll also set athletes up for after graduation: a lot of guys never have a real job in high school because of the protectionism people lay on high school athletes and then they're forbidden from having a job in college. That's eight years of work experience they've misses out on.

What exactly are the rules on that?  Of course, Casey Fitzgerald worked at Whataburger when he was a walk-on, and everyone was amazed that he chose to continue working after he was put on scholarship.  So I don't think there are any NCAA regulations against it...maybe just something that is generally discouraged by coaches?

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22 hours ago, UNT90 said:

Wow. Read what you just wrote.

Yes I read it, and I stand by it

Massive institutional cover up of sexual assault on too many victims to contemplate for a normal human being. That is Penn State territory right there. Given that the number of perpetrators seems significantly higher and the number of people aware of it being almost certainly higher, one may consider it worse than Penn State. We knew most of that even before this report, which makes this definitely not the duke lacrosse team incident indepentent of whether some people are now trying to capitalise on the situation. And concerning perception and details: It may be sad, but whether the exact number of real victims is for example 22 or 19, should matter tremendously to the victims and (hopefully if they are convicted) the perpetrators. But in terms of the public perception of what should happen to schools like Baylor or Penn State, these kind of details (exact number of victims, exact way things happened) will not really matter anymore, because it is way beyond what most people can understand in their (luckily) normal human brains and it will simply be beyond the pale of anything reasonable. And in that sense details will indeed not matter all that much. We already know of a whole number of cases, so the number of cases the accuser will be able to substantiate will definitely not be zero.  

Penn State got punished. Whether or not that punishment was adequate can legitimitaly be discussed. But I will say that I think that if Baylor gets similar penalties, it will not fare nearly as well at mitigating them. 

Edited by outoftown
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On 1/27/2017 at 5:47 PM, outoftown said:

It sounds like we are fast approaching Penn State territory. Maybe worse even. At some point the exact facts will cease to be important, bcause when the perception gets too bad, nobody can stomach the exact details anymore anyway.

 

22 hours ago, UNT90 said:

Wow. Read what you just wrote.

I'm with 90 on this one.  Yes they both involve accusations of sexual assault but there is one glaring difference, the continued allowance of a former staffer to use football facilities over a period of 15 years to commit the rape of underprivileged children under the guise of charity. This was not an accusation by an adult made upon another adult. This was a 60 year old man witnessed penetrating a 10 year old boy in the football showers by an assistant coach. While the Baylor stuff is terrible, there is no cause for you to say the alleged assault of Waco coeds away from athletic department facilities is worse than the confirmed rape of boys as young as 8 in athletic facilities over that many years. Sorry, you will never convince me of that.

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1 minute ago, Cr1028 said:

 

I'm with 90 on this one.  Yes they both involve accusations of sexual assault but there is one glaring difference, the continued allowance of a former staffer to use football facilities over a period of 15 years to commit the rape of underprivileged children under the guise of charity. This was not an accusation by an adult made upon another adult. This was a 60 year old man witnessed penetrating a 10 year old boy in the football showers by an assistant coach. While the Baylor stuff is terrible, there is no cause for you to say the alleged assault of Waco coeds away from athletic department facilities is worse than the confirmed rape of boys as young as 8 in athletic facilities over that many years. Sorry, you will never convince me of that.

This. There is nothing like this in the Baylor scandal. Also, Penn St was one person doing the molesting, so when it was observed by a 3rd party and reported, it made the victims that came forward much more credible. 

This are allegations against 31 different players, not one pedophile. Big difference. Could all the allegations be true? Sure. Could they all be untrue? Sure. But you don't know without looking at the facts in each of the cases. Individually. 

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47 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

 

I'm with 90 on this one.  Yes they both involve accusations of sexual assault but there is one glaring difference, the continued allowance of a former staffer to use football facilities over a period of 15 years to commit the rape of underprivileged children under the guise of charity. This was not an accusation by an adult made upon another adult. This was a 60 year old man witnessed penetrating a 10 year old boy in the football showers by an assistant coach. While the Baylor stuff is terrible, there is no cause for you to say the alleged assault of Waco coeds away from athletic department facilities is worse than the confirmed rape of boys as young as 8 in athletic facilities over that many years. Sorry, you will never convince me of that.

I think we can agree that it is hard to compare and weigh against each other these kind of crimes in a quantifiable way (like is the duration of how long the cover up happened more important than how many perpetrators were protected by it and if yes, by how much? like is the zynisism with which the cover up happens more important than how many people it takes to knowingly be involved in the cover up?) I think civilized people can reasonably disagree on those questions.

On a personal note I am biased here to take the assault on women particularly serious. The reason for that is that I am a neuroscientist with a PhD in psychology who spent 6 years of his professional life investigating a topic semi-close to some of these questions: What effect do domestic violence, sexual and physical assault have on the brain activation of mothers who interact with their children (simplified answer: mothers with trauma due to violence do have altered brain activation when seeing their kids in emotional states, and that change in brain activation correlates to their childrens emotion dysregulation, even after accounting for how much crap the kids did or did not see or live themselves).For a number of reasons I thus view the Baylor kind of crime as something that has consequences not just on the victims, but also on their families (everyone, not just their kids). The fact that the Baylor situations seems to have several instances of multiple perpetrators on one victim can be a pretty important factor in how tough it is for a victim to realise that what happened is not normal male behavior. This is not to diminish the suffering of the Penn State victims, which is definitely even tougher on the individual victim and for most will lead to some very tough psychological work in order to be able to have stable and functional relationships in the future.But if you forced me personallly to quantify the unquantifiable (and unspeakable) then I would put the assault on chilldren as worse than the one on women, but not as worlds apart. But overall, to me, at some point what is exactly worse than what stops mattering and it just needs to be stopped and deterred for future potential perpetrators who might be following the situation.

Edited by outoftown
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I'm curious when Briles decided allowing rape was a good recruiting tool. Never an allegation out of UH when he was there. He just dreamed it up in Waco? Did one guy get popped and he made it go away so the other player-rapists came running? Did he look for high school recruits accused of raped? I just don't understand it.

Maybe I'm a conspiracy theorist but apparently Elliot and Ukwachku being indicted was fine but once Briles told UT no thanks, then all of a sudden rape was rampant at Baylor. I'd bet if Biles took the UT job and won the big12 in '15 for the Horns none of this would've come to light.

Edited by Cr1028
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16 minutes ago, outoftown said:

I think we can agree that it is hard to compare and weigh against each other these kind of crimes in a quantifiable way (like is the duration of how long the cover up happened more important than how many perpetrators were protected by it and if yes, by how much? like is the zynisism with which the cover up happens more important than how many people it takes to knowingly be involved in the cover up?) I think civilized people can reasonably disagree on those questions.

On a personal note I am biased here to take the assault on women particularly serious. The reason for that is that I am a neuroscientist with a PhD in psychology who spent 6 years of his professional life investigating a topic semi-close to some of these questions: What effect do domestic violence, sexual and physical assault have on the brain activation of mothers who interact with their children (simplified answer: mothers with trauma due to violence do have altered brain activation when seeing their kids in emotional states, and that change in brain activation correlates to their childrens emotion dysregulation, even after accounting for how much crap the kids did or did not see or live themselves).For a number of reasons I thus view the Baylor kind of crime as something that has consequences not just on the victims, but also on their families (everyone, not just their kids). The fact that the Baylor situations seems to have several instances of multiple perpetrators on one victim can be a pretty important factor in how tough it is for a victim to realise that what happened is not normal male behavior. This is not to diminish the suffering of the Penn State victims, which is definitely even tougher on the individual victim and for most will lead to some very tough psychological work in order to be able to have stable and functional relationships in the future.But if you forced me personallly to quantify the unquantifiable (and unspeakable) then I would put the assault on chilldren as worse than the one on women, but not as worlds apart. But overall, to me, at some point what is exactly worse than what stops mattering and it just needs to be stopped and deterred for future potential perpetrators who might be following the situation.

You are working under the assumption that all of these rapes actually occurred.  That's a huge, huge leap. 

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So the orchestrated institutional effort of the Baylor coaching staff and university administration to not only willfully attempt to cover up illegal acts, but to also encourage the behavior by allegedly advertising it to recruits is beyond disgusting.

If these newest accusations are found to be true, how is this not just as bad as the disgusting Penn State scenario.  Both instances should cause these institutions to take a break from sports for a while because they both allowed their sense of right and wrong to be completely overrun by a desire to do well at sports.

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27 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

You are working under the assumption that all of these rapes actually occurred.  That's a huge, huge leap. 

I am not assuming that all of it occured. I am however assuming that at least some of it occured. That is bad enough for me. I think the oposite is true. Given what has transpired so far, the assumption that none of this did happend is the bigger leap actually I would say.

Edited by outoftown
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19 minutes ago, outoftown said:

But overall, to me, at some point what is exactly worse than what stops mattering and it just needs to be stopped and deterred for future potential perpetrators who might be following the situation.

I agree it should be stopped. I would argue that dropping the hammer on the new AD, Matt Rhule, and the Baylor recruits will do nothing to achieve that. Thule would be a damn fool to do anything but run a Straight Arrow Genaro caliber squeaky clean program. No program in the country is under the microscope like Baylor right now. You want justice? Go after the former Baylor staff at FAU, UT, etc. and suspend them from football until they are cleared or ban them for life if not cleared. Find the players that allegedly committed these acts and prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law. Prison is way worse than anything you'd do to them by suspending the football program at a school they used to attend.

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25 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

I agree it should be stopped. I would argue that dropping the hammer on the new AD, Matt Rhule, and the Baylor recruits will do nothing to achieve that. Thule would be a damn fool to do anything but run a Straight Arrow Genaro caliber squeaky clean program. No program in the country is under the microscope like Baylor right now. You want justice? Go after the former Baylor staff at FAU, UT, etc. and suspend them from football until they are cleared or ban them for life if not cleared. Find the players that allegedly committed these acts and prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law. Prison is way worse than anything you'd do to them by suspending the football program at a school they used to attend.

Oh I agree with all of that happening to the mentioned individuals. Kiddie Briles at FAU should be sweating blood right about now. Those players who did rape women are simply criminals that belong punished by the law. And I agree it is a problem that too much punishment has previously gone to the institution and not enough to the staff that caused it.

However, the cover up was also institutional and I am not convinced everyone is gone since. Moreover Baylor decided to retain most of its staff for at least most of last season. Depending on what they knew, that means the people making that decision need to be gone too. My empathy with Matt Rhule etc is limited. He knew that more skeletons in the closet was a real possibility. The players signing now have no excuse that they weren't aware that NCAA penalties might be up. Only the two last seasons classes might have any excuse in my book.

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On ‎1‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 4:14 PM, Caw Caw said:

Any school that allows its athletes to conduct itself in this manor, or any institution with any age, skill and occupation of human being deserves to have the hammer dropped. If it were UNT mark my words I'd advocate we're punished to the fullest extent.

He just meant that Baylor is the perfect school to come down on because they are a religious school.

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I don't think women came forward with lies to wrongfully charge players.  15 minutes of fame? 

Lack of institutional control comes to mind and some of those rape encounters that have come out were harrowing.  Minimal support for the women from the institution or the local police.  Definitely wouldn't send my daughter there. 

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