Benford's Replacement

[BillySee58]

2 hours ago, Dr. Seuss said:

I agree, we will talk about it a lot more.  I still dont know how UNT fans can generalize every previous UNT hire and say we cant do that in the future.  I understand that you dont want to make the same mistake twice but most of the readers dont understand @BillySee58 points.  Then they compare the two..  So would you not hire a HC with previous experience because Mac failed?  That's the same reasoning why people wont want to hire an assistant for the basketball team?  Or am I just reading everything incorrectly? 

Basically. Although in outoftowns' defense, he's maintaining that he wasn't a fan of the Benford hire from the beginning because of the assistant coach thing. At least his generalization is not only made in hindsight.

If Littrell doesn't work out you'll see people saying not to hire P5 OCs.

[Mean_Green09]

I don't really care how much of a recruiter the next guy is. I want some who can coach. I want a guy who has a clear system or who came from a program that has a clear system that they run. I want a X's & O's guy. Part of well the big problem with Benford is he has no system. It's just a collection of guys playing ball. Is it Buzz Williams Marquete system? No. Is it the motion offense he claimed to run? No. 

Coaches who have a clear system and can teach it can win almost anywhere. Even with below average talent. We need a guy who can get some execution on the floor from our players. We need a guy who isn't consistently getting out coached. 

With the players we have and where Benford came from I was hoping for a team that was focused on pressure man-man D. Force TOs and get out and run. Yet we can't or haven't played D since Benford's arrival. 

I don't care if we get a tactician who runs sets. I don't care if we get a dribble drive motion guy or a guy who presses and runs. I just want a guy who can teach the game. 

[Ben Gooding]

I want a guy that makes us into the best free throw shooting, rebounding, and defensive team in the league. Knock down your free throws while playing D like your hair is on fire and the rest will take care of itself. 

[UNT90]

2 hours ago, BillySee58 said:

Basically. Although in outoftowns' defense, he's maintaining that he wasn't a fan of the Benford hire from the beginning because of the assistant coach thing. At least his generalization is not only made in hindsight.

If Littrell doesn't work out you'll see people saying not to hire P5 OCs.

If any team needed an experienced head coach, it was the 2012 UNT team. That hire is the worst hire RV has ever made. Yes, worse than Dodge. 

Instead he hired a coach who couldn't and destroyed a proud program with a growing fan base. 

Just a head shakingly bad hire. Many of us expressed reservations at the time because RV had promised no more assistant hires. And then he did this.

These are also the same reservations I hold for Littrell, by the way.

[outoftown]

2 hours ago, AllGreen said:

But who, then? We're not going to get a P5 or even a G5 Head Coach, which leaves you with the tiny schools. You'd ideally want a coach that has made the tournament, right? Well, any coach that has made the tournament already has a better job than North Texas. An assistant from say, Missouri or Baylor can be a better hire than the HC at say, Maryland Baltimore-County or UC Irvine. I know Benford was an assistant at Marquette and that didn't work out. That doesn't mean that NO assistant will ever work out ever again.

I am totally ok with 'tiny schools' head coaches. I don't need them to have been at the tournament (doesn't hurt though), I just want clear and certain improvement over what we have now. Honestly the basketball program at small schools is not so different than the one at bigger schools. Same number of schollies, same schools you visit to recruit, and mostly the same schools you play in OOC. Only less resources for recruiting. And there are quite a few schools who cannot pay the guy who makes the tournament what we can. That is what makes a job worse than UNT, even when you already made the tournament or have a clearly better record.

Without researching these guys up close, nobody can tell me we can't get our pick of southland coaches (lets say Stephen F. Austin or TA&M CC coach) or SWAC coaches (lets say the southern coach), Southern conference (Mercer, Chattanooga) Big Sky (Montana coach), or several others from a bit further away (Lets say Wright State, Green Bay, Siena, Tennessee State). There would be more if one takes a close look. The AD would just have to go out and find them instead of waiting for them to knock on his door by themselves (and yes I am not sure he is good at that). But nobody can tell me, that UNT cannot afford almost all of those guys and not find one that would not be an embarassment off the court if the AD really tries.

 

Edited February 14, 2016 by outoftown

[outoftown]

41 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

If any team needed an experienced head coach, it was the 2012 UNT team. That hire is the worst hire RV has ever made. Yes, worse than Dodge. 

Instead he hired a coach who couldn't and destroyed a proud program with a growing fan base. 

Just a head shakingly bad hire. Many of us expressed reservations at the time because RV had promised no more assistant hires. And then he did this.

These are also the same reservations I hold for Littrell, by the way.

Shanice Stephens?

2 hours ago, BillySee58 said:

Basically. Although in outoftowns' defense, he's maintaining that he wasn't a fan of the Benford hire from the beginning because of the assistant coach thing. At least his generalization is not only made in hindsight.

If Littrell doesn't work out you'll see people saying not to hire P5 OCs.

Indeed it is a concern I have with Littrell too. BTW I am not saying Littrell can't work out, I really think this is a 50-50.  But I am currently really in a wait and see mode on him emotionally. And in FB too I would have preferred a succesful FCS HC over a P5 coordinator. But I can easier understand why to take a coordinator in football. There are more executive decisions even below the HC, you can generally separate better which part of the game a coordinator is responsible for, the difference between FBS and FCS is bigger, starting with different number of schollies etc, and finally and most importantly there are just a lot less options in pure number of HC coaches to chose from and we are toward the lowest rung of FBS. In other words it is a lot harder to find a "low downside" guy in football than in basketball in my mind.

Edited February 14, 2016 by outoftown

[BillySee58]

19 minutes ago, UNT90 said:

If any team needed an experienced head coach, it was the 2012 UNT team. That hire is the worst hire RV has ever made. Yes, worse than Dodge. 

Instead he hired a coach who couldn't and destroyed a proud program with a growing fan base. 

Just a head shakingly bad hire. Many of us expressed reservations at the time because RV had promised no more assistant hires. And then he did this.

These are also the same reservations I hold for Littrell, by the way.

In 06-07 Butler won 30 games and made it to the sweet sixteen. Their coach, Todd Lickliter, was hired away by Iowa. They were set to return the core of their team, led by star guards AJ Graves and Mike Green. They were as heralded a team in the preseason as you'll see from a traditionally one-bid league, with program transcending players set to be seniors.

They could've said "we need an experienced coach who won't squander these seniors' last season." Instead they hired Brad Stevens, an assistant. He led them to 30 wins that first year and two national championship games over the next three seasons. 

I know a difference there was that Stevens was an internal hire. Regardless, he had still never been a head coach. A different team could've hired him away the year before and they would've ended up very pleased with the product.

Stevens is a genius and as good as it gets. But the gap between Stevens and Benford is so huge that many assistants could fall between the two, still be well short of Stevens, yet still be capable of being successful here. Even immediately, with inherited players.

[UNT90]

7 minutes ago, BillySee58 said:

In 06-07 Butler won 30 games and made it to the sweet sixteen. Their coach, Todd Lickliter, was hired away by Iowa. They were set to return the core of their team, led by star guards AJ Graves and Mike Green. They were as heralded a team in the preseason as you'll see from a traditionally one-bid league, with program transcending players set to be seniors.

They could've said "we need an experienced coach who won't squander these seniors' last season." Instead they hired Brad Stevens, an assistant. He led them to 30 wins that first year and two national championship games over the next three seasons. 

I know a difference there was that Stevens was an internal hire. Regardless, he had still never been a head coach. A different team could've hired him away the year before and they would've ended up very pleased with the product.

Stevens is a genius and as good as it gets. But the gap between Stevens and Benford is so huge that many assistants could fall between the two, still be well short of Stevens, yet still be capable of being successful here. Even immediately, with inherited players.

And I think the difference is the internal hire. I think they knew what they were getting. I think RV was sold a bill of goods that no one else would take on (big shock, and how many times had Benford been interviewed before?). Even with that, the failure came in not firing Benford after year one where ANYONE who watched a UNT game could have told you that he had no clue what he was doing as head coach. 

There was also a push for JJ's lead assistant to be hired. He wasn't, and then got involved in a degree scandal (his own degree) at LSU. Shawn Forrest, I believe?

Would have been Interesting to see how much different things would have turned out if Forrest had been the hire...

[GrandGreen]

Being that NT to the best of my knowledge has never hired an experienced D1 head coach, there is no history.   In fact, almost all of NT in my timeframe have been assistants.  The only exceptions are Bill Blakeley, Harry Miller and Newman.  Newman had a whole year experience at Texas Wesleyan and Miller only stayed a year after coming from a lower division school.   Blakeley came from being a hc at a juco and an one year stint with the Dallas Chaparrals. 

So hiring someone with D1 hc experience would be a first, not counting interim positions.   The only coaches out of these with any kind of success were Dan Spika, Bill Blakeley, Gales and Jones.   Three former D1 assistants and Blakeley 

I don't think linkage means as much as how much NT is willing to pay.   Raise the ante like in football or settle for someone in Benford's range?  

Some will argue but I think this hire if it happens is much like the Benford hire.   There is an experienced squad with a lot of potential that should be returning, not time to take another flyer like hiring a total inexperienced Benford.   A top flight assistant may be the way to go, but make sure he has been a hc at some level.   

[UNT90]

5 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

Being that NT to the best of my knowledge has never hired an experienced D1 head coach, there is no history.   In fact, almost all of NT in my timeframe have been assistants.  The only exceptions are Bill Blakeley, Harry Miller and Newman.  Newman had a whole year experience at Texas Wesleyan and Miller only stayed a year after coming from a lower division school.   Blakeley came from being a hc at a juco and an one year stint with the Dallas Chaparrals. 

So hiring someone with D1 hc experience would be a first, not counting interim positions.   The only coaches out of these with any kind of success were Dan Spika, Bill Blakeley, Gales and Jones.   Three former D1 assistants and Blakeley 

I don't think linkage means as much as how much NT is willing to pay.   Raise the ante like in football or settle for someone in Benford's range?  

Some will argue but I think this hire if it happens is much like the Benford hire.   There is an experienced squad with a lot of potential that should be returning, not time to take another flyer like hiring a total inexperienced Benford.   A top flight assistant may be the way to go, but make sure he has been a hc at some level.   

The difference is a lot f coaches were chomping at the bit t coach that 2012 squad. That squad was picked by the Sun Belt coaches to win the conference, was featured in a national publication as one of 3 mid-majors to watch, and had made the conference tournament championship game the season before while returning every starter and adding Jobes and J Williams, both of whom were ineligible during that tournament run.

A lot of coaches WANTED to coach that team. No one will WANT to coach this one. This team will finish close to last in conference, will be one and done in the conference tournament, and will be picked to finish in the bottom half of conference again next year. 

A lot of people will want the job, but that's different than wanting to coach the team. Options will be more limited. 

There were lots last time. And this AD chose the absolute worst one.

[UNT90]

3 hours ago, outoftown said:

Shanice Stephens?

Nope. Think in context of what we lost in program momentum and the talent we wasted with Benford.

[Dr. Seuss]

Back on topic.  My guy to get is Darrin Horn. Unt  basketball fans should know this name

[bstnsportsfan3]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Seuss said:

Back on topic.  My guy to get is Darrin Horn. Unt  basketball fans should know this name

Wasn't he horrible at WKU?

[Dr. Seuss]

9 minutes ago, bstnsportsfan3 said:

Wasn't he horrible at WKU?

He was the HC during the sweet sixteen run, no he wasn't horrible.  When he went to SC he went under .500  

[Graddean]

22 hours ago, outoftown said:

I have no problem with a head coach coming from DII, as DII in basketball is still fairly similar, the kids have the same age, you still have to recruit high schools etc. He'd have to have been very successful there though.

I do believe that the bolded part isn't entierly correct though and that the comparison to Chen Ho Park isn't exactly working.It is not bad to take a risk if there is more upside than downside. CHP was a bad evaluation for a number of reasons, but spending big money on a free agent pitcher can have upsides you can't find elsewhere and make up for other shortcomings. This is simply not the case with taking an assitant BBall coach for HC at UNT vs taking a current HC. The reason to chose a HC if you can is that he has already held a very similar job and undergone some on the job training as well as that you can judge the outcome without having to extrapolate as you do with an assistant. In other words you can chose soebody whos downside will be small. If Benford should have shown us anything, then that recruiting does not matter if you don't know how to handle your recruits. Nobody said assistants can't work out as head coaches. Of course they can otherwise nobody else would ever become a new successful HC. But in this discussion taking assistants has just more downside than taking an HC, without really having more upside other than it is cheaper. But why take that risk if you do not have to? If you can get a currently succesful HC from another school that is maybe just one rungs below you (say southland etc)? I am convinced UNT doesn't have to take a risk on an assistant. If it does it is a choice, and that would simply be a stupid choice. That was my uneasiness when RV hired Benford, that he hired somebody unproven but flashy, when I am sure he could have had somebody from a smaller school, maybe less flashy, but proven. It could have worked out. But there was simply almost no upside to the choice.

I have to disagree about DII coaches recruiting high school.  Most upper level DII teams are comprised of juncos and DI transfers.  Many DII schools will have a minimum number of recruits straight from high school.  If you want to go with an experienced head coach, I would opt for one with more than  Ne successful season at a lower level DI.

[Dr. Seuss]

100%, I actually think he's a realistic option this offseason.  I also agree that went cant just poach any head coach like Underwood or Cross.  

 

[GMG24]

On 2/14/2016 at 3:15 PM, UNT90 said:

The difference is a lot f coaches were chomping at the bit t coach that 2012 squad. That squad was picked by the Sun Belt coaches to win the conference, was featured in a national publication as one of 3 mid-majors to watch, and had made the conference tournament championship game the season before while returning every starter and adding Jobes and J Williams, both of whom were ineligible during that tournament run.

A lot of coaches WANTED to coach that team. No one will WANT to coach this one. This team will finish close to last in conference, will be one and done in the conference tournament, and will be picked to finish in the bottom half of conference again next year. 

A lot of people will want the job, but that's different than wanting to coach the team. Options will be more limited. 

There were lots last time. And this AD chose the absolute worst one.

Scott Cross was one and never got an interview. Sad.

Bet a million or so dollar contract says otherwise 

[GMG24]

Money does strange things to people.

[Dr. Seuss]

This is why I'm throwing his name out there. 

[GMG24]

SMU paying big $, and 600 K a year for an assistant and it's working (minus this years postseason ban) lol

[GMG24]

Never compared the two, just stated SMU paying the big $ worked out. 

[Dr. Seuss]

3 minutes ago, GMG24 said:

Never compared the two, just stated SMU paying the big $ worked out. 

Then do some research and throw some names out there. 

[bstnsportsfan3]

7 hours ago, Dr. Seuss said:

He was the HC during the sweet sixteen run, no he wasn't horrible.  When he went to SC he went under .500  

My bad...i was thinking of Ken Mcdonald...who i believe they about ran out of town with pitchforks

[UNT90]

If you are an up and coming college coach, why would you take any amount of money to come to UNT and have to deal with this AD?

Edited February 15, 2016 by UNT90

[MeanGreenTexan]

Who on earth honestly believes we're going to pay a basketball coach $1mil/yr?   We don't pay our football coach that much, and we're not steeped in basketball tradition like KS, KY, or Duke.   Unless Ernie decides we're going to be a "basketball school", then we're going to be paying just over what we're paying Benford now.