NT recruiting

[H-towngreen]

I found this on the recruiting blog on DMN.com

"Another reader begged for UNT recruiting news. Yeah, right. UNT coach Darrell Dickey doesn't like offering guys early. He figures it's just advertising a recruit for a big-time program to pick off. So the Mean Green doesn't make recruiting waves until after the holidays, sorting through leftovers. I understand the logic. Still, I see coaches from schools like Wyoming at area high schools more often that guys who can drive from Denton."

I don't think we have to worry about a big time program taking recruits away from a 2 and whatever team. So DD I give you permission to go out and start getting some verbals.

[MeanGreenBuzz]

I second that... although I have to admit DD has pulled in some very good recruits over the 4+ years that I have been watching the program using this system. I know all of us would like to know early who and what we are getting for next year, but think of all the under the radar players have made good at NT. We aren't exactly Texas who can commit someone 2 years before they graduate and not expect another program to atleast look at them.

[NT80]

I second that... although I have to admit DD has pulled in some very good recruits over the 4+ years that I have been watching the program using this system.  I know all of us would like to know early who and what we are getting for next year, but think of all the under the radar players have made good at NT.  We aren't exactly Texas who can commit someone 2 years before they graduate and not expect another program to atleast look at them.

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Bogus. Like the writer mentions, schools like Wyoming (not to mention other SBC schools) just walk in and take recruits right out from under us while we play the stupid waiting game.

To me the lack of UNT's name after recruits hurts the schools image to fans and recruits and is a negative. If I'm a player considering UNT and I see no peers listing UNT I'm wondering what's wrong with the place.

If you can't sell UNT from the start then maybe we need better sellers!

[untbowler]

Bogus.  Like the writer mentions, schools like Wyoming (not to mention other SBC schools) just walk in and take recruits right out from under us while we play the stupid waiting game. 

To me the lack of UNT's name after recruits hurts the schools image to fans and recruits and is a negative.  If I'm a player considering UNT and I see no peers listing UNT I'm wondering what's wrong with the place.

If you can't sell UNT from the start then maybe we need better sellers!

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preaching to the choir (at least parts)

[good_ken]

If you can't sell UNT from the start then maybe we need better sellers! [\quote]

Yeah! If they can't sell coming off a 2-9 record, a 50 year old stadium in a city that doesn't care then we need better sellers!

Did it ever occur that maybe UNT isn't always the most attractive place to an 18 year kid to want to go? That perception is changing, but is changing very slowly.

[NT80]

Did it ever occur that maybe UNT isn't always the most attractive place to an 18 year kid to want to go? That perception is changing, but is changing very slowly.

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You're telling me Wyoming, Troy, Arkansas State, Henderson State, SE Louisiana, etc. are more appealing? We need some people to have confidence in their recruiting voices about UNT, not whispering from around corners in shadows.

[Guest GrayEagleOne]

If UNT is such an unattractive place then why does the enrollment keep increasing? Can 32,000+ be wrong?

One area player (Top 50) in the last two years has listed us as being considered; that's unacceptable. Does the coaching staff really believe that they will lose every verbal to a bigger program? Then, we have a serious inferiority complex.

[PlummMeanGreen]

You're telling me Wyoming, Troy, Arkansas State, Henderson State, SE Louisiana, etc. are more appealing?   We need some people to have confidence in their recruiting voices about UNT, not whispering from around corners in shadows.

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Just do your best to endure all this, Jeff. I guarantee you that all this won't last forever and as some like to put it: THIS TOO SHALL PASS?

Wonder if UTEP's Coach Price if he were at UNT would walk into a DFW Metroplex high school hat in hand with his eyes looking at his shoe strings & all but apologetically saying: "Awe shucks, you guys don't happen to have any players that would really be interested in us, now do you?"

We are one of the largest universities in Texas that sometimes operates like we're one of the smallest and that part is a shame for all who attended UNT like many of the ones on this board and beyond who have gone on this "non-stop" roller coaster ride for more years than there ever should have been.

Yet at this point in time and IMHO, we have become is one of the strangest college football programs I've ever heard of, read about or seen the 40 plus years I've followed college football with this recruiting thing being just one BB in a bucket of other oddities in Denton.

One of the strangest parts of all this is how we always still seem to average 15,000 empty seats per home game the last few seasons no matter what our W/L record and all this during a time of unprecedented growth not only at UNT, but in Denton & Denton County as well.

Had UNT football attendance grown (accordingly) thru the years and decades with all the boom growth on campus and in greater Denton, in a perfect & normal world we should now be at a point that we would never have less than 30,000 per home game & would have needed a larger stadium years ago. .

So it's just very difficult for one to to put a finger on what it is that is making all this annual "non-significant growth" at the Fouts Field turnstiles occur during a time of boom growth within a 20+ mile radius of our main campus.

So NT80, hang in there with the rest of a growing army who feel the same because: This too will most definitely pass.

Edited August 10, 2006 by PlummMeanGreen

[SilverEagle]

If UNT is such an unattractive place then why does the enrollment keep increasing?  Can 32,000+ be wrong?

One area player (Top 50) in the last two years has listed us as being considered; that's unacceptable.  Does the coaching staff really believe that they will lose every verbal to a bigger program?  Then, we have a serious inferiority complex.

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Hayden Fry basically said the same thing when he first arrived on the North Texas campus. He couldn't understand why North Texas had such a big inferiority complex......and then he set about changing all that. After he openly said that North Texas was as good as any other school in Texas, I remember saying "well, it's about damn time someone said that!"

Sadly, when Fry left, all the "old nesters" who helped perpetuate that negative athletic image re-gained control, closed ranks, and made sure that we never had another person like Fry again.

That's why they sniffed and said " he can apply like every one else" when Hayden recommended Bill Brasher as his replacement. Bill Brasher was insulted (and why not? he had been an outstanding player and coach at North Texas since the 50's) and then joined Fry at Iowa, where his defenses helped get Iowa into a couple of Rose Bowls.

Edited August 10, 2006 by SilverEagle

[PlummMeanGreen]

Hayden Fry basically said the same thing when he first arrived on the North Texas campus. He couldn't understand why North Texas had such a big inferiority complex......and then he set about changing all that. After he openly said that North Texas was as good as any other school in Texas, I remember saying "well, it's about damn time someone said that!"

Sadly, when Fry left, all the "old nesters" who helped perpetuate that athletic image re-gained control, closed ranks, and made sure that we never had another person like Fry again. 

That's why they sniffed and said " he can apply like every one else" when Hayden recommended Bill Brasher as his replacement. Bill Brasher was insulted (and why not? he had been an outstanding player and coach at North Texas since the 50's) and then joined Fry at Iowa, where his defenses helped get Iowa into a couple of Rose Bowls.

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Couldn't have posted it better, Bill, except you know I would have posted it, uh, much longer of course.

What disappoints me is how so few seem to be objecting to the general direction of our athletic program of today and even with the low status (among all of NCAA D1-A) it had even during the bowl years. There are some, Bill, who will never want to hear anything but "PollyAnna is coming to visit Aunt Myrtlee, Mom, how nice" type stuff and to some extent even on this board when strong opinion makes some get tense or (in general) pissed off that someone has bigger goals or ideas for UNT other than their own.

Hayden Fry dared to challenge many of the "well situated with state retirements in hand" nestors on our campus back in the day and he pissed many of them off. Some of the lagniape we've heard about "how bad" Fry was for NTSU from some of this group is almost laughable; but you know the best way to not ever piss anyone off at UNT, Denton and even GMG.com and I'll put it in 3 inch headlines:

DON'T DO OR SAY A DAMN THING TO ROCK THE BOAT!

Hope this era of low expectation (and general acceptance of it) ends much sooner than later up in Mean Green Country. Many of us are just flat out running out of time to watch our 3, 4 and 5 decade dreams for this football program come to some semblance of a much higher profile than the one we're in at the moment and seem entrenched.

Edited August 10, 2006 by PlummMeanGreen

[LongJim]

Hayden Fry basically said the same thing when he first arrived on the North Texas campus. He couldn't understand why North Texas had such a big inferiority complex

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You know, I risk ridicule for posting this--as an "outsider"--but I've never understood why there's an "inferior" attitude. PMG and a couple of other UNT alums I have talked to are very aware of this very thing, and it's definitely palpable.

Inferior in what way??

What's weird to me, is that alums of other schools (and I'm not saying all) that I've met do not view UNT as "inferior" in any way.

It's mind-boggling, frankly.

[FirefightnRick]

You know, I risk ridicule for posting this--as an "outsider"--but I've never understood why there's an "inferior" attitude.  PMG and a couple of other UNT alums I have talked to are very aware of this very thing, and it's definitely palpable.

Inferior in what way??

What's weird to me, is that alums of other schools (and I'm not saying all) that I've met do not view UNT as "inferior" in any way. 

It's mind-boggling, frankly.  

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Absolutely correct Jim. In What Way indeed? In fact it reminded me of the TCU game in '01 or the baylor game in '03. Emmitt and I walked around the orange parking lot to talk to and welcome many of the TCU or Baylor faithful and several mentioned the same thing with statements like "We've heard this school wasn't much to see, but I have to tell you, we got here early and just came back from up on your campus and this is a great location and a wonderful place to visit. How big is this school now?". Remember the couple from TCU who brought the purple smoke pit trailer? I believe they came up from WACO? I talked to them for quite a while and they were truly surprised at how large and nice NT was and the accessabiltiy they were given to come up and tailgate when they contacted our officials about it. I have heard similar things from other visitors over the years. Back in '02 and '03 NT was gaining a lot of respect from many college football fans. People wanting to know, "What's going on in Denton?". I for one have never thought of NT as inferior to anyone and I know most here feel the same.

Rick

Edited August 10, 2006 by FirefightnRick

[good_ken]

Absolutely correct Jim. In What Way indeed? In fact it reminded me of the TCU game in '01 or the baylor game in '03. Emmitt and I walked around the orange parking lot to talk to and welcome many of the TCU or Baylor faithful and several mentioned the same thing with statements like "We've heard this school wasn't much to see, but I have to tell you, we got here early and just came back from up on your campus and this is a great location and a wonderful place to visit. How big is this school now?". Remember the couple from TCU who brought the purple smoke pit trailer? I believe they came up from WACO? I talked to them for quite a while and they were truly surprised at how large and nice NT was and the accessabiltiy they were given to come up and tailgate when they contacted our officials about it. I have heard similar things from other visitors over the years. Back in '02 and '03 NT was gaining a lot of respect from many college football fans. People wanting to know, "What's going on in Denton?". I for one have never thought of NT as inferior to anyone and I know most here feel the same.

That's kind of my point. There is a perception out there about UNT. Where it comes from I don't know. I do agree with Harry (can't remember where he said it): if DD can get a kid to come to campus, he can usually get the committment.

Hopefully UNT can start making news again that will change this percpetion; among the community, the student body and fans.

[DeepGreen]

Just do your best to endure all this, Jeff.  I guarantee you that all this won't last forever and as some like to put it: THIS TOO SHALL PASS?  

We are one of the largest universities in Texas that sometimes operates like we're one of the smallest and that part is a shame for all who attended UNT like many of  the ones on this board and beyond who have gone on this "non-stop"  roller coaster ride for more years than there ever should have been. 

Had UNT football attendance grown (accordingly) thru the years and decades with all the boom growth on campus and in greater Denton,  in a perfect & normal world we should now be at a point that we would never have less than 30,000 per home game & would have needed a larger stadium years ago. .  

So it's just very difficult for one to to put a finger on what it is that is making all this annual "non-significant growth" at the Fouts Field turnstiles occur during a time of boom growth within a 20+ mile radius of our main campus.

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Is there a correlation to the old nestors making athletics "operate with one arm tied behind the back" for the past 40+ years and the fact NT has a paltry $40 million war chest? I think so. Alums have simply given up on our University and do not give the big donations back to the university. And who can blame them.

Edited August 10, 2006 by DeepGreen

[UNTLifer]

I don't know if the "old nestors" are still to blame. They may have created this attitude, but that was 30 or 40 years ago, and most of them should be retired by this point. We need to change the attitude of the entire faculty, staff, administration, etc... that are currently on campus to have some pride in their university whether it be the quality of education NT offers or the product NT puts on the athletic field/court.

[SilverEagle]

I don't know if the "old nestors" are still to blame.  They may have created this attitude, but that was 30 or 40 years ago, and most of them should be retired by this point.  We need to change the attitude of the entire faculty, staff, administration, etc... that are currently on campus to have some pride in their university whether it be the quality of education NT offers or the product NT puts on the athletic field/court.

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I certainly hope they are all retired by now. However, just like any family tradition (negative or positive) attitudes like this get passed down to the next generation.

Hopefully not.

[PlummMeanGreen]

Is there a correlation to the old nestors making athletics "operate with one arm tied behind the back" for the past 40+ years and the fact NT has a paltry $40 million war chest?  I think so.  Alums have simply given up on our University and do not give the big donations back to the university.  And who can blame them.

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Phil, its like UNTLifer posted in his post (and I expand a bit on that) that there is a dire need for a whole army of Mean Greeners to write those non-stop letters, emails and making telephone calls to voice their concerns that we are of the opinion that we are just not operating at a level that a school projected to have over 40,000 students in the next 10 years should be.

The "paltry" (good choice of a word, Phil) $40 million war chest for the entire UNT System concerns me that if we cannot hire fundraisers who can double and triple that quickly, how do we ever expect dear ol' alma mater to turn loose (lose ) $50 millioin (if that hasn't gone up now) for the construction of an NCAA D1-A football palace out at our Eagle Point Campus and its Mean Green Athletic Village?

Of course, that is still where the, uh, a Big Donor must be secured and one who steps up to the plate with his mega-millions and says: "Mr. Jackson and Madam UNT-Denton President (what the hell is her name anyway)? ; anyway........... "This $30 million seed money is to be used for the company who will implode Fouts Field and monies that will be used to start on the construction of a new football stadium." And no, no, no..........no matter how hard you try to change my mind on this donation, it cannot and will not be used for anyone's pet projects at UNTHSC @ Fort Worth or UNT-Dallas or even UNT-Denton ( madam president)!"

Then..........................NT Exes and Mean Green fans of all eras and decades meet for one helluva' implosion ceremony at Fouts Field with much celebration and revelry to follow the explosion and subsequent disappearnce of a symbol we've need rid of for decades with all the hoopla heard even as far away as Dallas and Fort Worth and after the settling of the dust a bright new future that will affect everyone in the entire UNT community!

Edited August 10, 2006 by PlummMeanGreen

[flyonthewall]

The new athletic center is as nice as any in the country. The new academics center is up and running and is beautiful and state of the art. The turf on Fouts Field is brand new and state of the art. The education at UNT is as fine as any in the state, with some programs tops in the country. I know our stadium is old, but what is there not to sell to these kids right now? We all want a new stadium, but I am tired of hearing about what we don't have.

[Green Crazy]

Phil, its like UNTLifer posted in his post (and I expand a bit on that) that there is a dire need for a whole army of Mean Greeners to write those non-stop letters, emails and making telephone calls to voice their concerns that we are of the opinion that we are just not operating at a level that a school projected to have over 40,000 students in the next 10 years should be.

The "paltry" (good choice of a word, Phil) $40 million war chest for the entire UNT System concerns me that if we cannot hire fundraisers who can double and triple that quickly, how do we ever expect dear ol' alma mater to turn loose (lose ) $50 millioin (if that hasn't gone up now) for the construction of an NCAA D1-A football palace out at our Eagle Point Campus and its Mean Green Athletic Village? 

Of course, that is still where the, uh, a Big Donor must be secured and one who steps up to the plate with his mega-millions and says: "Mr. Jackson and Madam UNT-Denton President (what the hell is her name anyway)? ; anyway...........  "This $30 million seed money is to be used for the company who will implode Fouts Field and monies that will be used to start on the construction of a new football stadium."  And no, no, no..........no matter how hard you try to change my mind on this donation,  it cannot and will not be used for anyone's  pet projects at UNTHSC @ Fort Worth or UNT-Dallas or even UNT-Denton ( madam president)!"

Then..........................NT Exes and Mean Green fans of all eras and decades meet for one helluva' implosion ceremony at Fouts Field with much celebration and revelry to follow the explosion and subsequent disappearnce of a symbol we've need rid of for decades with all the hoopla heard even as far away as  Dallas and Fort Worth and after the settling of the dust a bright new future that will affect everyone in the entire UNT community!

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PMG, that last paragraph gave me chill bumps.

[FirefightnRick]

I don't know if the "old nestors" are still to blame.  They may have created this attitude, but that was 30 or 40 years ago, and most of them should be retired by this point.  We need to change the attitude of the entire faculty, staff, administration, etc... that are currently on campus to have some pride in their university whether it be the quality of education NT offers or the product NT puts on the athletic field/court.

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They certainly are not ALL retired. Not one bit. Don't kid yourself on that.

Rick

[PlummMeanGreen]

The new athletic center is as nice as any in the country.  The new academics center is up and running and is beautiful and state of the art.  The turf on Fouts Field is brand new and state of the art.  The education at UNT is as fine as any in the state, with some programs tops in the country.  I know our stadium is old, but what is there not to sell to these kids right now?  We all want a new stadium, but I am tired of hearing about what we don't have.

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flyonthewall, having been one of thousands of NT Exes who have worked in DFW since the 1970's, it is still Fouts Field that is the (negative) focus of many non-North Texans many of us have worked with or have had the occasion to run into with our Metroplex-based jobs.

The focus of some of our critics most always seemed to be that UNT was really not serious about being a player in NCAA D1-A because of Fouts Field and our continued use of this venue in this new milleneum we find ourselves. Hard to believe that the Dallas Cowboys (who began NFL play in 1960) will be playing in their 3'rd stadium over in Arlington while our alma mater continues to chug-a-lug like an old Papa John Deere tractor with our venerable Fouts Field . Had only Fouts Field been built in the middle of our campus back in the day rather than within eyesight of the tens of thousands who drive by it daily off I35-E; anyway, had Fouts been built blocks away from I35-E that may have very well served as a buffer from many of the jokes about our track & field stadium with poor sightlines and a football field way too far for our fans; but, of course, that was not to be.

MORE HIND-SIGHT..............Even a matter that many of us have questioned while in some of our hindsight modes of decades gone by is why the old Texas Highway Department (now callled TxDOT) ever planned and built I35-E so gol' darn close to Fouts Field in the first place. Of course, back in that day we were in the midst of achieving 4 NCAA National Golf Division 1 Championships with the old NT golf course as headquarters for our Don January/Billy Maxwell lead NT golf teams so I'm sure that piece of UNT real estate was probably (and totally) off limits for interstate expansion in Denton.

[flyonthewall]

I understand what you are saying about fouts, but I am saying you sell to your positives, not defend your negatives. I believe that we are going to have a new football stadium in five to seven years. However right now, we have what we have, and it aint all bad.

[SilverEagle]

I understand what you are saying about fouts, but I am saying you sell to your positives, not defend your negatives.  I believe that we are going to have a new football stadium in five to seven years.  However right now, we have what we have, and it aint all bad.

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Well, if we're going to live with it for another 5 to 7 years, then I'd like to suggest that we try and make the end-zone seats, and if possible , the east stands more heat tolerant by looking at some sort of shading system.

Similar to this.

http://shadeconcepts.net/recreational.php

I really feel sorry for those people sitting in the end-zone seats. Especially early in the season.

[Varsity]

Though a football fan for 33-plus years, I have seen the recruiting process really up close for the last three years through my nephews.

One played HS ball near Denton in '04 and would have liked to go to UNT, but, no offer. Frankly, he was a bit of a gamble but an out-of-state school rolled the dice on him and won. My nephew worked his ass off to get ready and was the starter at his position on opening day, held onto it throughout the season.

Second nephew is a bluechipper in the Houston area, lots of schools -- big league schools -- knocking at the door. UNT would be a perfect fit for him, major-wise, geographically and it is pretty much what he is looking for in a school, but it looks like he is going elsewhere. UNT never contacted him, never sent him ANYTHING. Hell, even A&M Commerce sent him a brochure!

You want players? Be aggressive and show a kid some early interest. Move in on them to show that you were interested from the get-go. That's how my nehew verballed, because one school latched onto him early and let him know he was wanted. Take a chance on a kid who may not be all world, he might show his gratitude by working his way into your starting lineup.

[PlummMeanGreen]

Though a football fan for 33-plus years, I have seen the recruiting process really up close for the last three years through my nephews.

One played HS ball near Denton in '04 and would have liked to go to UNT, but, no offer. Frankly, he was a bit of a gamble but an out-of-state school rolled the dice on him and won. My nephew worked his ass off to get ready and was the starter at his position on opening day, held onto it throughout the season.

Second nephew is a bluechipper in the Houston area, lots of schools -- big league schools -- knocking at the door. UNT would be a perfect fit for him, major-wise, geographically and it is pretty much what he is looking for in a school, but it looks like he is going elsewhere. UNT never contacted him, never sent him ANYTHING. Hell, even A&M Commerce sent him a brochure!

You want players? Be aggressive and show a kid some early interest. Move in on them to show that you were interested from the get-go. That's how my nehew verballed, because one school latched onto him early and let him know he was wanted. Take a chance on a kid who may not be all world, he might show his gratitude by working his way into your starting lineup.

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REVISED FOR YOU FIRST CUP OF SATURDAY AM COFFEE

Sadly, Varsity, we have heard too many stories of late like the one about your blue-chipper nephew who even got a brochure from TAMU-Commerce. All this will continue (unfortunately) until there are (most likely) massive changes made at UNT and hopefully our next selection committee won't be a one man ram-rodded committee with no NT degree who has a buddy who is a fellow alum who just happens to have a son, nephew, old family friend or whatever who wants to be a head football coach. This happened at UNT because we allowed this to happen at UNT. We were an easy place for such a thing to have happened. Too many things are allowed to happen at UNT that even one committee member recently erroneously emailed to one on this forum and I liberally paraphrase his email when he said : "We don't have to answer to those people." ("THOSE PEOPLE", folks, that that UNT committee member was talking about was us! Yet it is "those people" on our campus who say they want to see all of us show up at our stadium and to throw good money (after bad) with "going nowwhere" programs.

Yet, FWIW, if an Idaho U can hire a Dennis Erickson, can't we do so (again) in the future OR have we in Mean Green Country become so beaten down that we don't even think we can do something similar as what those vaunted Vandals have done with their hiring of the very high profile Dennis Erickson?

Seems UNT has actually done what the Idaho's, the UTEP's and other similar have all done. W/O Fry having had 6 years to revive his career at UNT, there would have been no Iowa Hawkeye head football coaching job for him to go to to continue an illustrious career that ended up in the College Football Hall of Fame for the great Hayden Fry.

Many of you I've heard or received emails have expressed: "Give us 5, 6, or 7 years of any coach or ancillery athletic staff member who gets hired away from us at a Big 10 or Big 12 school any day of the year; that is, give us that scenario over the one we seem to have gotten used to in Denton. Can UNT afford lifetime career employees who keep us at our present standing while buffalo'in some in Denton into thinkin' they are really the best thing to happen in Denton since sliced bread? I defer to 15,000 empty seats at home games in a time of unprecedented growth on campus, Denton and Denton County if you are one of the ones buying into their self-serving bunk.

But it's amazing all the B.S. NT Exes have to accept from non-North Texas educated employees on our campus who make all the key decisons and the kind of decisions that we who attended UNT will have to live with long after these decision-makers are long gone with their dream jobs or in some of their cases, completely different careers.

Most of the athletic hires many of us have seen at NT post-Hayden Fry have mostly been counter-productive. Have been terrible fits in Denton and to Texans in general. So.................ANY DAY OF THE YEAR give us UNT employees that schools with much higher profiles than ours knock doors down to hire away from us because that usually means they've done a knock-out job in Denton. And just maybe after they take their new jobs, hopefully, our leaders would look at the good traits our departed UNT employee possessed and try to duplicate his/her replacement with someone of similar talents? Duh?

So is this really all rocket science that it (sometimes) seems our 6-figure paid leaders want to make out of all this when it comes to who they hire that really fit in Denton, Texas, America? Is it so difficult a thing for our present UNT leaders look to simply observe what other schools have done to make their 180 degree turnarounds?

Other NCAA D1-A schools who were way down the NCAA D1-A food chain (like UNT is at the present compared to all our other collegues in NCAA D1-A); yet weren't those schools leaders pro-active in making the Big Decision to merely spend a little bit more salary-wise to go first class? And at some of those schools we have all observed how some of their new hires have come in on the run (no 10 year plan to reach. 500 in W/L's for them) and with some of those higher profile hires we have all witnessed that within 2 or 3 years their programs (seemedly) over-night have a Top 25 ranked football team? Really, how soon can we expect a Top 25 football program in Denton? One such school with this Top 25 success just this week made Houston's Texas Bowl's short list among 9 (sadly, not 10) other Texas D1-A schools who are elgible for their bowl.

So, yes, FFR, to respond to what you said in another thread the Houston-based bowl's snub of UNT was (in deed) a big kick in the ass for all who call themselves Mean Green on or off campus. It affects us all from each academic department at UNT-Denton to the one who has just become a Mean Green fan. Yet.............. haven't we all sorta' been conditioned to just lay down and accept such treatment at UNT thru the years? A question some might ask is: Do we keep on allowing those who persevere all this low profile conditioning in MG Country get their nice, comfy' retirements in Denton?

Edited August 12, 2006 by PlummMeanGreen