NY Time OpEd piece on science denial

[GTWT]

That's what a Big Bang creating millions of different types of specie, plant and animal, at random would be, though, wouldn't it, magic? Or, perhaps, miraculous. I'm sure the Christian would go with miraculous.

"Poof! (Millions of years of seeing nothing...then, printing press and so forth...then, we're all from space dust monkeys!)" Wow, how could anyone disagree with that? Randomly...millions of times over. "Poof!"

I'm just sorry that the millions of randomness's magic miraculous "poof" didn't take hold on Mars...or, Venus...or, Pluto (whatever we classify it as today, so that there are no starving children in third world countries).

Earth is so lucky to have been the beneficiary of the millions of random occurrences over the millions of years, eh? Billions and billions of miles in space. Millions and millions of years. Millions and millions of plants and animals...all mysteriously, randomly, merge together to form Earth and everything in and on it.

WOW! That's magic! Let's build a rocket ship to the moon and see what's on one of the unlucky spheres. Blah...nothing here but space dust and rocks. Can't every get a decent tomato garden going up here. Then, we'll go to Mars. Ooooooo, Mars. Nothing here either but space dust and rocks and maybe...WATER!?!?

Oh Mars! Mars! What happened to you millions and millions of years ago? Was it SUVs that was your downfall? Nuclear war? Cows farting? Coal plants? Greedy oil companies? China? India? Paper and plastic grocery store bags?

Oh, Mars! Mars! Give up your magical secrets of life! Why must you await the next magic, mysterious, miraculous, randomly generating millions of species, plant and animal, over millions of years on one planet "poof"? Why? Why, God? Why?

"Poof!"

Lonnie, I've read that a couple of times & I'm still not sure what your point is. You seem to have a problem with random events. Physicists do indeed talk about random events but what they mean, usually, is events which are, in fact, caused but our understanding of the cause-and-effect relationships are, at least for now, beyond our ability to observe. No physicist believes the events of the Big Bang are magical (and that seems to be what you mean when you say 'random') - everything that occurred was in accord with the laws that govern energy & matter (though those laws may have been a bit exotic in the first few milliseconds following the 'bang').

Turning to evolution - a subject with which I am more comfortable - 'randomness' is not a very useful term. The source of the variability on which evolution depends is mutation. Mutation is often described as 'random' but that's again a reflection of our failure to understand the cause-and-effect events that lead to mutation. Mutations are determined by physical events. Even more importantly, the probability of any particular mutation is determined by the biological context in which it occurs. As an example, previous mutational events may raise the probability of new mutations occurring in that cell lineage (you may recognize this as part of the process of carcinogenesis). Even if you insist on calling mutation 'random', don't make the mistake of thinking the other components of evolution are random. Natural selection, the major process by which evolution occurs, is a determinant process. Mutations that are detrimental (i.e., make reproduction less likely) are selected against. Mutations that are beneficial (make reproduction more likely) are selected for.

Neither physics nor biology are magical. Neither physics nor biology are random in a real sense.

Edited January 29, 2013 by GTWT

[meangreendork]

And I'm not saying I buy into that theory. It is fascinating though.

But we also cannot discount 2 Peter 3:8 when presented with a theory like this one.

I'm really amused with the "specifically designated the days of creation as 24-hour days" line, which isn't actually anywhere in the scripture. You could make the logical leap, but nowhere does it say "days are 24 hours long." Besides, for all we know, days might have been longer or shorter during Biblical times, not to mention what people actually may or may not have used as a reference of measurement.

[Mean Green 93-98]

And I'm not saying I buy into that theory. It is fascinating though.

But we also cannot discount 2 Peter 3:8 when presented with a theory like this one.

The point of that verse is that a promise of God is just as good with the passing of time as it was the day he made it.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

I'm really amused with the "specifically designated the days of creation as 24-hour days" line, which isn't actually anywhere in the scripture. You could make the logical leap, but nowhere does it say "days are 24 hours long." Besides, for all we know, days might have been longer or shorter during Biblical times, not to mention what people actually may or may not have used as a reference of measurement.

.

---Forget the crazy details... either you believe God exists or that he doesn't.....period...It is all about faith and beliefs... you can't prove anything....The details and the crazy interpretations is most of the problem... "To the four corners of the Earth" didn't mean it was flat either.... but that crazy Pope and others thought it did. We have people thinking birth control is bad...... some don't think you shouldn't cut hair.....some think women should wear dresses to the floor and no makeup..... some don't use modern appliances, cars, or electricity... some think if you don't believe as I do, I can kill you.... Some think Saturday is the seventh day (some European calendars have Sunday as day seven and Monday as first... bet they are confused there)...

---I don't see much fight coming from the science side but I do see a lot from the religion side coming up with anti-science arguments... then science responds to it. Electricity isn't the work of the devil as some once in religion claimed and the world isn't flat. Evolution... it exists, at least somewhat.. I am not about to argue about evolution of "monkey (whatever)" to man. It is a theory ( not proven fact) ... take it or leave it... I have had a lot of math/science and often amazed as to how things work ...I see no conflict.... what happened in the beginning happened and who cares about details.

---My big problem are these guys who "think?" they absolutely know the answers... which includes the nutty First Baptist-Dallas minister claiming Obama is the forerunner of the anti-christ... really... they said the same about Hitler, and others... Quit making up stuff [ aka bearing false witness ] ... You are driving people away with those insane claims and look very stupid...

---More wars have had a religious issue involved and had more people killed than for any other reason... even in WWII the Jewish religion was an issue in a so-called Christian country. The Protestant reformation resulted in 1000's (or millions) being killed. Today's big problem in the Middle East is mostly about religious fanatics. .... Assuming God exists.... I doubt he approves of all of this.

---Pretty much everything can be summarized to one statement--- "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". ... which includes don't go around lying about others or killing them.

_______

FFR --How is the heck do you think I am a pagan liberal.... as you claim in posts... I am Christian, but not extremely gullible to some groups claims, .. and I hated the debt getting out of control after 2001, said so, and so many just ignored it and then claimed to be conservative....also I thought the Iraq invasion (a war with seemed unjustified because no real evidence of nukes (wasn't any)... but it killed/disabled a lot of people and likely was a mistake .... I don't think some here really understand what conservative means.... to me-- pay your bills, stay out of debt, and mind your own business unless they are doing something that harms you ... includes not claiming your religious beliefs is the correct one .... If you read the US Treasury site chart (which you didn't dare to comment on)... you know my debt comment is true... it started the rapid climb after 2001..not 2009.... and is still climbing.... mostly because Congress will do nothing (Norquest pledge is a problem).

.

Edited January 30, 2013 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[Quoner]

This section of the board certainly knows how to make both sides of an issue look equally unappealing.

[oldguystudent]

This section of the board certainly knows how to make both sides of an issue look equally unappealing.

I'll pray for you.

[EagleGreen]

*TIC* I think most will find solace in knowing that OUR president, as in WE THE PEOPLE, is a CHRISTIAN! We MUST respect HIM as the LEADER of our CHRISTIAN nation. EVOLUTION and GLOBAL WARMING are a HOAX! It's COLD outside TODAY! Eat that AL GORE! ALSO, we DIDN'T come from the sea, we came from the UNITY of 2 sinners (ultimately the same person; see rib) and will ONLY be saved by OUR CREATOR! GO TO CHURCH PEOPLE! (By the way, there is a good potluck there, tonight). *TIC*

[GrayEagle]

I'll pray for you.

You forgot. You have no one to pray to.

[CMJ]

If the simple fact that CMJ finally has a girlfriend isn't proof enough that there is a God, then I don't know what else to tell you?

ATTENTION 66!!!!!....This is what folks call SARCASM, and is an attempt to lightly tease CMJ with no hateful intent whatsoever.

Rick

Just saw this.

We have been together 3 years though - but I guess time flies when you're off playing as an Indfidel.

Edited February 1, 2013 by CMJ