The Denia Morons Are Pi$$Ed Again

[ADLER]

I share the residents concerns. The problem is not with the residents or the university or even with all the proposed new development, the problem is with a city that continues to be inattentive and refuses to address the issue other than by proposing to someday place an obsolete band-aid on this.

The best way to solve a problem is to anticipate the issue and correct it before it ever becomes a problem. An ounce of prevention......

First, please look at the Google Map of stadium area

Re-route Bonnie Brae from where it currently intersects Airport Road to parallel I-35W on the other side of the railroad tracks and then reattach to it's current route south of the railroad tracks past Willowwood. Bonnie Brae will be a primary traffic artery for residents of all the new developments being built in southern Denton between Denia and the Denton Country Club. Why on Earth would you want to route all those people though the center of a pedestrian laden campus, through 20 MPH speed zones and the resulting speed traps, and creating additional hazards by placing a four lane through-way between athletic facilities and the rehabilitation facilities. I'm sorry to say this, but the city's current proposed route is not only inefficient, but unnecessarily dangerous.

Place stadium parking in all the fields along Bonnie Brae on the other side of the railroad tracks and create a pedestrian tunnel under the tracks right by the soccer, softball, and future baseball facility.

Create a two lane wide entrance ramp from Bonnie Brae onto northbound I-35W. This will incredibly alleviate traffic congestion by quickly releasing a large portion of the traffic out of the event areas. This will also help relieve the daily strain that the growing residential campus already has on traffic.

Seriously, if the proper street improvements are made, why would anybody want to cut through the Denia neighborhood on gameday.

[GrayEagle]

I share the residents concerns. The problem is not with the residents or the university or even with all the proposed new development, the problem is with a city that continues to be inattentive and refuses to address the issue other than by proposing to someday place an obsolete band-aid on this.

The best way to solve a problem is to anticipate the issue and correct it before it ever becomes a problem. An ounce of prevention......

First, please look at the Google Map of stadium area

Re-route Bonnie Brae from where it currently intersects Airport Road to parallel I-35W on the other side of the railroad tracks and then reattach to it's current route south of the railroad tracks past Willowwood. Bonnie Brae will be a primary traffic artery for residents of all the new developments being built in southern Denton between Denia and the Denton Country Club. Why on Earth would you want to route all those people though the center of a pedestrian laden campus, through 20 MPH speed zones and the resulting speed traps, and creating additional hazards by placing a four lane through-way between athletic facilities and the rehabilitation facilities. I'm sorry to say this, but the city's current proposed route is not only inefficient, but unnecessarily dangerous.

Place stadium parking in all the fields along Bonnie Brae on the other side of the railroad tracks and create a pedestrian tunnel under the tracks right by the soccer, softball, and future baseball facility.

Create a two lane wide entrance ramp from Bonnie Brae onto northbound I-35W. This will incredibly alleviate traffic congestion by quickly releasing a large portion of the traffic out of the event areas. This will also help relieve the daily strain that the growing residential campus already has on traffic.

Seriously, if the proper street improvements are made, why would anybody want to cut through the Denia neighborhood on gameday.

I think that this solution has a lot of merit. It might need a little tweaking as there is a creek to deal with and some future use that we may not totally know. But, I really like the idea as a whole.

Another big help would have been to stick with the original master plan and build a large parking garage just north of the future baseball stadium. I also like Jim Plummer's idea of running Toonerville Trollies from parking lots on or near the campus to alleviate so much foot traffic. I had hoped that the footbridge across I-35E would be complete by the grand opening.

[Green Dozer]

The foot bridge across 35 would have to be done by the state and done so to fit future plans for expansion of that part of 35, which I guess is still light years away. As for the thought these folks should have thought about all of this, the master plan floated around Denton for years was that the University would expand east, bordered by Eagle, Hickory, and Carroll. So if they had checked 15, or 20 years ago nobody thought the stadium would be built where it is. Of course the athletic plans changed when the Liberty property fell into UNT's lap. Also, one of these "Morons" as some call is a former chair of the board of regents and very generous donors to our athletic program for years. They live in an addition that includes several $250K + homes, adjacent to the athletic center property. Lets be careful who we lump into the "Moron" group.

As for routing down Willowood, and McCormick, just station some parking security people, be it the parking people we used at Fouts or the students who work for the UNT Police, throughtout that part of Denia with the plastic barricade things and only let people with valid id/reasons onto the other streets. If they park and leave the area, tow them.

If the TX Motor Speedway can move the amount of cars it does in a few hours, surely an educated city like Denton can move 1800 cars, which is on the high side in my opinion since most parking will still be where it is by Fouts now.

Edited January 2, 2011 by Green Dozer

[UNT90]

I think Kram has it. UNT has determined that the people who run the Denia neighborhood assoc aren't representing anyone but themselves and can and should be ignored because they're going to be anti-UNT no matter what.

As a Denian, I'm all for it. Heck, if somebody wants to give me $20-$30 to use my driveway and walk to the stadium let me know!

Can I set up my tailgate tent in your front yard and pee in your bushes?

If so, l'd give you $20

[Denia Park Pedro]

Can I set up my tailgate tent in your front yard and pee in your bushes?

If so, l'd give you $20

Tailgate tent? Not for $20, but I will let you pee anywhere in my yard you want for a mere $5.

[oldschoollefty]

One thing that hasn't been brought up is the commuter rail which will link the DART Green Line in Carrollton to the Denton County rail which will reach into Denton. I would think many Southern Denton/Northern Dallas County fans could simply ride the rails into Denton especially if there was a shuttle service from the train station to the stadium. That could potentially reduce the automobile count by a couple hundred or more.

[KRAM1]

One thing that hasn't been brought up is the commuter rail which will link the DART Green Line in Carrollton to the Denton County rail which will reach into Denton. I would think many Southern Denton/Northern Dallas County fans could simply ride the rails into Denton especially if there was a shuttle service from the train station to the stadium. That could potentially reduce the automobile count by a couple hundred or more.

Excellent idea. But, where will the train stops be in relation to the stadium? Anyone know? I have not kept up with that part of the rail development as I probably should have. Anyone know?

[MeanGreenSoHo]

Excellent idea. But, where will the train stops be in relation to the stadium? Anyone know? I have not kept up with that part of the rail development as I probably should have. Anyone know?

I saw a while ago that the rail would end in Downtown Denton, I guess around the square but I am not positive.

http://www.mya-train.com/about-the-a-train/stations-a-facilities This site has the stations listed.

Edited January 3, 2011 by MeanGreenSoHo

[UNTflyer]

There are two Denton stops - Denton Regional Medical Center and Downtown off Hickory Street, couple of blocks from the square.

I am not happy with the DCTA plans. There was an option many years ago to sell the right of way to DART and allow them to operate trains up to Denton. DCTA wanted to have their own train system, and after years of planning and construction they announced that the service would be minimal - almost to the point of making it impossible to use the train for recreational events (such as going to the AAC to see the Stars or Mavs) unless it is a Friday or Saturday game.

Edited January 3, 2011 by UNTflyer

[oldschoollefty]

The downtown rail station is probably a 10 minute or so bus ride from the stadium, maybe a little more with game day traffic but I still think this is a very viable option to reduce congestion on game day. This takes at least a few cars off of 35E and removes a significant # of cars from area parking lots (and Denia streets ). It is something that wouldn't cost much. I'm sure between the university and DCTA, buses could be scrounged up for use. I wonder if a quick e-mail to RV would help matters.

[UNTflyer]

RV can't do anything about bus service. That would be up to the DCTA board, but I wouldn't count on it. If people want, they can already ride on UNT shuttle buses that service the area. It would only take 3 transfers to get from the new stadium over to the train station.

[UNTFan23]

It would only take 3 transfers to get from the new stadium over to the train station.

Which is why DART > DCTA. With the Victory and Fair Park stations, getting to games at the AAC and Cotton Bowl is a breeze and you don't have to stress about trying to find parking and dealing with gameday traffic.

[UNTflyer]

Which is why DART > DCTA. With the Victory and Fair Park stations, getting to games at the AAC and Cotton Bowl is a breeze and you don't have to stress about trying to find parking and dealing with gameday traffic.

Oh, I'm sure that people looking for a good time might enjoy being dropped off at either a Denton hospital or a Denton ghetto. Don't you?

[Keith7]

There are ghettos in Denton?

[The Kerrfeteria]

There are ghettos in Denton?

Denia?

[Harry]

Surely they will consider having a shuttle go from the square to the stadium? That would make too much sense.

I spoke to a lot of people who took the green line to the New years event at Victory and they had good things to say about the experience.

[Mean Green Matt]

There are ghettos in Denton?

Fouts?

[The Kerrfeteria]

Surely they will consider having a shuttle go from the square to the stadium? That would make too much sense.

I spoke to a lot of people who took the green line to the New years event at Victory and they had good things to say about the experience.

The Green Line is phenomenal, took it to a Stars game a few weeks ago. Best way to get downtown from the suburbs, IMHO. The connection to Denton is going to be pretty valuable once I-35E goes under construction through Lewisville, so maybe the ridership numbers will be convincing enough to make DCTA expand hours of operation to move people that want to go to the game? You're right though, Harry, shuttle buses would make way too much sense to actually implement.

Edited January 3, 2011 by The Kerrfeteria

[UNTflyer]

Surely they will consider having a shuttle go from the square to the stadium? That would make too much sense.

I spoke to a lot of people who took the green line to the New years event at Victory and they had good things to say about the experience.

We've used the green line 3 times in the past week to go to Stars games and the New Year's Eve party in Victory Park. It was really good.

[mad dog]

I share the residents concerns. The problem is not with the residents or the university or even with all the proposed new development, the problem is with a city that continues to be inattentive and refuses to address the issue other than by proposing to someday place an obsolete band-aid on this.

Not saying your plan wouldn't be effective. It sounds great. The problem is money - who is going to fund it?

To give you an idea of what you're looking at, a similar project at my City was bid out and awarded at 4.3 million. And this project involves adding two lanes, not building a new road entirely. This says nothing about the cost of staff time, which is sure to be a nightmare considering TxDOT would be involved with on-ramp change. There's no way Denton could absorb that kind of a hit to their operating funds, so you're looking at an issuance of debt or drawing down of fund balance. And those steps are usually performed within the context of a broader bond election or community emergencies, respectively.

It's pretty easy to put the blame on the City, because they have the capability and the organizational imperative to improve the land it governs. However, you're looking at one project, and there are literally hundreds, each of them with stakeholders who will fall on their sword to see it through. Add to that the effect of the economy (despite $3 million+ reduction of cost in the General Fund alone) and you get an even smaller pool to draw from. Denton is entering a major wave of needed maintenance projects, and repairing what you have will almost always take priority over buying something new.

And the dirty truth that no one at Denton would ever publicly admit, but is certainly there: universities are already municipal freeloaders. A city will never recoup the cost of UNT's tax-exempt status, and yet bears the cost of providing services both directly to the university and indirectly to the student population. So it may not be the most accurate thing to say Denton is doing nothing for the university - they may not be comfortable parting with additional monies to an entity which isn't paying for what it has already received.

[TIgreen01]

So, to cut all the crap out of this thread and get right down to it....if we're going to tailgate at football games, the vast majority will still be parking in the Fouts lot and then have to walk down Mean Green Blvd, across 35E, then hike it down the hill to the stadium? Is that correct? If so, WTF!!!?!

[FloMoGrad]

I never lived on Campus, always in an apartment off-campus, but in Denton. Eating at restaurants in town, working and spending in that town. The school is tax exempt, but the 35,000 students and thousands of faculty are not. I don't think it's as burdonsome as you portray.

But the truth is, just like in every situation, start with the end in mind. Involve all affected parties and move the process forward anticipating all the needs for your prpject. Anything less is mis-management. Period. And Corinth/HV/Flower Mound built a new bridge and road thru solid neighborhoods in 3-5 yrs...Environmental Impact Studies, public forums and the like.

We're talking about widening existing roads and making needed improvements to a decades old on/off ramp. One new 4 lane road. This is all manageable and should have been in the works, if not started on or even close to completed, by now.

[ColoradoEagle]

So, to cut all the crap out of this thread and get right down to it....if we're going to tailgate at football games, the vast majority will still be parking in the Fouts lot and then have to walk down Mean Green Blvd, across 35E, then hike it down the hill to the stadium? Is that correct? If so, WTF!!!?!

I can't remember where I saw it, but I'm pretty sure all MGC members will be able to park at the new stadium for tailgating. Non-members will still have to park at Fouts, and the NT Blvd bridge will be turned into a walkway only on game days.

[GrayEagle]

Not saying your plan wouldn't be effective. It sounds great. The problem is money - who is going to fund it?

To give you an idea of what you're looking at, a similar project at my City was bid out and awarded at 4.3 million. And this project involves adding two lanes, not building a new road entirely. This says nothing about the cost of staff time, which is sure to be a nightmare considering TxDOT would be involved with on-ramp change. There's no way Denton could absorb that kind of a hit to their operating funds, so you're looking at an issuance of debt or drawing down of fund balance. And those steps are usually performed within the context of a broader bond election or community emergencies, respectively.

It's pretty easy to put the blame on the City, because they have the capability and the organizational imperative to improve the land it governs. However, you're looking at one project, and there are literally hundreds, each of them with stakeholders who will fall on their sword to see it through. Add to that the effect of the economy (despite $3 million+ reduction of cost in the General Fund alone) and you get an even smaller pool to draw from. Denton is entering a major wave of needed maintenance projects, and repairing what you have will almost always take priority over buying something new.

And the dirty truth that no one at Denton would ever publicly admit, but is certainly there: universities are already municipal freeloaders. A city will never recoup the cost of UNT's tax-exempt status, and yet bears the cost of providing services both directly to the university and indirectly to the student population. So it may not be the most accurate thing to say Denton is doing nothing for the university - they may not be comfortable parting with additional monies to an entity which isn't paying for what it has already received.

Freeloaders is a relative thing. Most of the faculty live in Denton in nice homes. They pay property taxes, school taxes, and city sales taxes. They buy from Denton merchants who do pay taxes to the city. They attract businesses and residents. Many of their students rent rooms and apartments off-campus from owners who pay taxes. So the University of North Texas is not a freeloader per se.

Now explain all of the services that UNT has received. UNT built their buildings and landscaped the campus. They maintain the campus drives that are not thoroughfares. Street improvements are the lone burden on the city and that will be slowly repaid by attracting more visitors who spend dollars in Denton, such as students' parents and those attending athletic events.

Edited January 3, 2011 by GrayEagle

[mad dog]

I never lived on Campus, always in an apartment off-campus, but in Denton. Eating at restaurants in town, working and spending in that town. The school is tax exempt, but the 35,000 students and thousands of faculty are not. I don't think it's as burdonsome as you portray.

But the truth is, just like in every situation, start with the end in mind. Involve all affected parties and move the process forward anticipating all the needs for your prpject. Anything less is mis-management. Period. And Corinth/HV/Flower Mound built a new bridge and road thru solid neighborhoods in 3-5 yrs...Environmental Impact Studies, public forums and the like.

We're talking about widening existing roads and making needed improvements to a decades old on/off ramp. One new 4 lane road. This is all manageable and should have been in the works, if not started on or even close to completed, by now.

Satellite development, which is what you're referencing, is almost never worth the cost it takes to attract it. Tax Abatements seldom work as intended for this very reason - it is usually a losing propostion unless you can get office tower-level density.

Let's take your 35,000 and round it up to 40,000 for argument's sake. Let's assume that all the students are employed and are making the Denton average per capita income ($19,365), rounded up to $20,000 for simplicity. Let's assume that they are somehow able to convert 25% of that to discretionary income (after tax, rent or mortgage, insurance, medical, property maintenance, child support, inflation, raw foods, and sundries). Finally, let's assume that they spend every penny of that discretionary income within the city limits of Denton on taxable items. This gives us a pool of $200 million in taxable spending. The City's take of that is 2%, which means a total revenue impact of $4 million.

Operationally, let's just look at public safety. This would mean that no student, professor, or employee uses any service other than the bare essentials (police/court and fire). Denton's per capita public safety spending is approximately $360 ($43 million/119,454). So the net public safety cost of serving a population of 40,000 is $14 million.

Revenues - $4 million. Expenditures (just the very very basics) - $14 million.

Realize the realities are much, much different. There's no way you're even close to that kind of revenue number, and no way the cost of service is as low as $14 million. The 40,000 you mention comprose fully one third of Denton's total population. To have the infrastructure and organization contribute nothing in the way of taxes is ALWAYS a losing proposition. The benefit to the Denton community is the prestige of being home to one of the best universities in the Country, not anything financial.