The Trenches

[UNT90]

Tap the brakes on how great FIU is. Sure, they're Belt-good... maybe they'd even BEAT K-St (not convinced).... but you're saying their defense is 41 points better than K-St's? Wanna rethink that?

I think you're misunderstanding what i said... all I'm saying is a drop off from 40-point performances against Big XII talent to a SHUT OUT against FIU means there's a hell of a lot more offensive issue and blame than to the O-Line. I can't believe that's being debated.

And another issue is play calling. Not one 1st down pass in the 1st half (until there was 33 seconds left) when EVRYONE in Florida and Texas knew FIU was going to put 8 in the box. There is no doubt in my mind that this was Mac's call, not Canales's. Anyone who saw the play calling after Dodge was fired knows that Canales would not have been this predictable. He was muzzled this game.

Coach Mac, stick to the defensive side of the ball. There is plenty of work to be done there.

Edited September 2, 2011 by UNT90

[Green P1]

Sure they do. Totally agree. The line sucked.

So did pretty much every other position on the field except Chancellor. That's all I'm sayin'. Lots of blame to go around... we still shouldn't be getting shut out in conference.

Then I agree 100%!

Although I'd place the lion share of blame on that line.

[GoMeanGreen1999]

Sure they do. Totally agree. The line sucked.

So did pretty much every other position on the field except Chancellor. That's all I'm sayin'. Lots of blame to go around... we still shouldn't be getting shut out in conference.

I have to agree. Getting shut out offensively in conference shouldn't happen.

[greenminer]

After watching the game I kinda would. Two freshman guards + injured center + what basically is a freshman quarterback = futility.

If you wanna blame Mac for starting the re-building process this hardcore (unless he honestly saw them as the best possible options) maybe we could have that discussion but those 2-4 positions make a pretty damn solid difference.

You're so much more efficient than I.

[CaribbeanGreen]

It's okay to be upset about this. I am, too. But if we're going to have this all figured out, why not go all out? The 1st quarter pace was all-too reminiscent of Dodge Game 1. So, I think it is safe to say that the next 4 years are going down the tube, and going down in humiliation.

If you want to talk rational arguments, then you're going to have to explain why you're trying to use the last 5 games of 2010 as a benchmark for this year's performance. Is it really as simple as "we still have Chico"? Should it be that simple?

I am just going to chill out and watch the next two seasons unfold. Because this is what we got, like it or not. And I don't know if it gets any better than this for NT, regarding facilities and staff.

Also, I don't believe anyone is blaming this solely on a freshman starting in our OLine. But thanks for throwing that out there.

Then we agree to disagree..... though I'm not sure what you're even disagreeing with me on at this point.

Speaking of straw men, well, the whole first 3/4ths of your post. I never once said anything about the future. I said tonight was an embarrassment, and having freshmen OL's isn't an excuse for getting shut out by FIU. I can't believe anyone was expecting our offense to get shut out before 6pm tonight.

Where I said anything about the future is beyond me. I didn't. I'm still excited about Mac, recruiting to the new stadium, and having Dodge gone. Starting kids now will reap rewards down the road. That said, tonight was still a disaster, way below expectations. It's not a zero sum situation.

As for blaming the OL, when you started this with "A true frosh came in and took a starting spot. Not a single guy from last year's line is playing the same position. Still don't get it?" as a reply for why I shouldn't be surprised we produced 40+ fewer points than the last half of year, that was the implication for what I clearly "didn't get" and why you weren't surprised with the massive drop off in production. If that wasn't the case, I guess I still "don't get it".

[MeanMag]

Then we agree to disagree..... though I'm not sure what you're even disagreeing with me on at this point.

Speaking of straw men, well, the whole first 3/4ths of your post. I never once said anything about the future. I said tonight was an embarrassment, and having freshmen OL's isn't an excuse for getting shut out by FIU. I can't believe anyone was expecting our offense to get shut out before 6pm tonight.

Where I said anything about the future is beyond me. I didn't. I'm still excited about Mac, recruiting to the new stadium, and having Dodge gone. Starting kids now will reap rewards down the road. That said, tonight was still a disaster, way below expectations. It's not a zero sum situation.

As for blaming the OL, when you started this with "A true frosh came in and took a starting spot. Not a single guy from last year's line is playing the same position. Still don't get it?" as a reply for why I shouldn't be surprised we produced 40+ fewer points than the last half of year, that was the implication for what I clearly "didn't get" and why you weren't surprised with the massive drop off in production. If that wasn't the case, I guess I still "don't get it".

The last half of the year... Lets see 12 games in a year... divide by 2... that's 6.... last six games of last year... OH! Look! FIU! The first of that half of the season. Compare THAT game.

Getting shutout on offense sucks. But, don't make it seem so dramatic. It was a 10 point drop from last year. Would you have been satisfied with 3 or 10 points? You could have been upset with that too. It's allowable. We did lose.

[CaribbeanGreen]

It's okay to be upset about this. I am, too. But if we're going to have this all figured out, why not go all out? The 1st quarter pace was all-too reminiscent of Dodge Game 1. So, I think it is safe to say that the next 4 years are going down the tube, and going down in humiliation.

If you want to talk rational arguments, then you're going to have to explain why you're trying to use the last 5 games of 2010 as a benchmark for this year's performance. Is it really as simple as "we still have Chico"? Should it be that simple?

I am just going to chill out and watch the next two seasons unfold. Because this is what we got, like it or not. And I don't know if it gets any better than this for NT, regarding facilities and staff.

Also, I don't believe anyone is blaming this solely on a freshman starting in our OLine. But thanks for throwing that out there.

And frankly, Miner, I'd love to spoon and make up. It's been a bad night.

if I indeed misunderstood you , then we probably agree on most things in this thread. I think the OLine sucked, too. I also think almost every skill position sucked, and I think getting shut out in conference is surprising and shouldn't happen again. I'd venture a guess your thoughts aren't far off there.

I feel like there's still enough of that talent that put up those big numbers last year to do some damage this year. Hopefully we get some things ironed out by real conference play.

BFFs?

[CaribbeanGreen]

The last half of the year... Lets see 12 games in a year... divide by 2... that's 6.... last six games of last year... OH! Look! FIU! The first of that half of the season. Compare THAT game.

Getting shutout on offense sucks. But, don't make it seem so dramatic. It was a 10 point drop from last year. Would you have been satisfied with 3 or 10 points? You could have been upset with that too. It's allowable. We did lose.

I just gave numbers from post-Dodge, since we (theoretically) have the same dude calling plays and the same stud RB. Closest line of association I can draw. It's my opinion that if we had played FIU post-Dodge firing last year, we'd have put up more than 10 points- we were a totally different offense. That can never be proven, just like comparing the FIU games to each other is still shaky since neither of us is the same team.

All I'm saying is that I was very surprised and disappointed the offense was shut out tonight, especially with the way we ended last year and all the momentum and excitement, and the blame goes all around. That's all. I expected a loss, but thought we'd put up some points and be competitive into the second half.

Love what I heard from Mac, though... NO EXCUSES. Looks like he also feels this is totally unacceptable, which is what you want to hear. Going down 28-0 in the 1st quarter in conference play is never, no way, no how understandable. Period. It's a total systemic failure, and I'm glad to hear him say it. Now, we have to fix it.

Still have hope we can fix some things and turn the ship around by the rest of Belt play. Not panicking per se, but uneasy. You may be right, and the end of last season may have no relevance to any expectations this year, regardless of all the familiar personnel.

Edited September 2, 2011 by CaribbeanGreen

[TIgreen01]

It's hard to tell from tv coverage how plays and routes were developing downfield...but I was a little surprised the coaches stayed with DT as long as they did. I assume they were trying to show confidence in him, and to be fair, he's coming off a terribly difficult injury...but he had a bad day. The line struggled at times, but did well at times. The QB has to occasionally make plays, and DT was hesitant in those situations.

Thought the defense settled down a bit after getting shelled early. I think we saw enough, as the game wore on to tell that the coaches are still feeling this defense and rotations out. They'll get better over the course of the season.

...but the UH game could be uglier than this unless we see a miraculous turnaround in all three phases.

[CaribbeanGreen]

It's hard to tell from tv coverage how plays and routes were developing downfield...but I was a little surprised the coaches stayed with DT as long as they did. I assume they were trying to show confidence in him, and to be fair, he's coming off a terribly difficult injury...but he had a bad day. The line struggled at times, but did well at times. The QB has to occasionally make plays, and DT was hesitant in those situations.

Thought the defense settled down a bit after getting shelled early. I think we saw enough, as the game wore on to tell that the coaches are still feeling this defense and rotations out. They'll get better over the course of the season

...but the UH game could be uglier than this unless we see a miraculous turnaround in all three phases.

This. Well said. You're good at typing words.

[Mean Green 93-98]

The last half of the year... Lets see 12 games in a year... divide by 2... that's 6.... last six games of last year... OH! Look! FIU! The first of that half of the season. Compare THAT game.

Getting shutout on offense sucks. But, don't make it seem so dramatic. It was a 10 point drop from last year. Would you have been satisfied with 3 or 10 points? You could have been upset with that too. It's allowable. We did lose.

I understand why you want to focus on the FIU game last year. But that game was without doubt our lowest point of the year, with injuries, starting our 4th string walk-on QB, a walking dead man as head coach, and a virtual no-show by several of our starters.

Once Coach Dodge was gone, things turned around, and a lot of us were hoping some of that energy and ability to compete in and win games would carry over into this season. We came into this game with a healthy roster, riding a wave of enthusiasm and optimism. From a personnel and emotional standpoint, this should not have been a comparable situation with last year's FIU game. But we came out and got whupped about the same as last year, and worse from an offensive standpoint.

So you're saying it should be expected that this year, we pick up from where we left off at last year's FIU game. Maybe you're right that it worked out that way, but others of us were hoping that we would pick up with MUTS and K-State.

Anyway, I don't think I'll post or read any more on this game. It's done, it's over, and hopefully we can move onward, and especially upward. I hope this year's FIU game is also the low point of the season.

[MeanMag]

I understand why you want to focus on the FIU game last year. But that game was without doubt our lowest point of the year, with injuries, starting our 4th string walk-on QB, a walking dead man as head coach, and a virtual no-show by several of our starters.

Once Coach Dodge was gone, things turned around, and a lot of us were hoping some of that energy and ability to compete in and win games would carry over into this season. We came into this game with a healthy roster, riding a wave of enthusiasm and optimism. From a personnel and emotional standpoint, this should not have been a comparable situation with last year's FIU game. But we came out and got whupped about the same as last year, and worse from an offensive standpoint.

So you're saying it should be expected that this year, we pick up from where we left off at last year's FIU game. Maybe you're right that it worked out that way, but others of us were hoping that we would pick up with MUTS and K-State.

Anyway, I don't think I'll post or read any more on this game. It's done, it's over, and hopefully we can move onward, and especially upward. I hope this year's FIU game is also the low point of the season.

I don't know what game you saw last night. This game might be our lowest point of this year, we started a QB with no experience, a brand new head coach in his first game at NT, and a virtual no-show by several of our starters.

Coach Dodge is still gone. We beat WKU last year, a team we regularly beat, even with Dodge. And we beat the MUTs last year. The closest team we have to a rival in this conference.

FIU sees us every year, and has beaten us every year with Cristobol. They know how to handle Dunbar for whatever reason. Derek Thompson didn't play in any of those 6 games at the end of last season. Darius Carey is gone for not following rules. Playing a defending conference champion in the 1st game of a new coach and season that has beaten you fairly easily going back to 2007 is a tough way to start the season. TY Hilton was a monster, and their coaches make up ways to get him the ball. I don't think we give them enough credit for having become a team that represents our conference well in bowl games.

I'm just as disappointed as anyone else here. We all aren't happy this happened. But, to say that I am surprised just isn't true because I have seen nothing to indicate yet that we should win a game like this. I'll be surprised when we win a game like this. Coach Mac has said it himself, this team still has to learn how to win. I know everyone likes the way we played against K State and we did some good things, but we lost that game too. So please, move on from that one as well.

[LongJim]

2010 Offensive Game Stats vs FIU (NOT K St.) 31-10

First Downs 13

Total Yds 285

Passing 142

Rushing 143

3rd down conversions 4-17

Turn Overs 0

Dunbar had 30 yds and 1 TD

2011 Offensive Game Stats vs FIU (Still Not K st.) 41-16

First Downs 17

Total Yds 301

Passing 204

Rushing 97

3rd down conversions 4-16

Turn Overs 1

Dunbar had 35 yds

You want to compare to Kansas State? I'll compare to the team that we play every year. It looks a lot like last year. In fact, just like last year.

It was embarrassing last year too if you recall.

The difference:

MacCarney has been on the job less than about 9 months and hasn't coached 1 game...

Dodge had been coaching at UNT for 3 1/2 years. I'm willing to give MacCarney at least 3 1/2 years before I start calling it embarrassing.

Did it cross anyone's mind that maybe Kansas St. had a bad defense? Or that that team in Miami that we play every year has a pretty good one?

So yes, I agree to beat FIU, we need better recruiting classes and better O-line and D-line. And, I agree that it will take time.

You sir, get it. Post more often.

[rcade]

FIU sees us every year, and has beaten us every year with Cristobol. They know how to handle Dunbar for whatever reason. Derek Thompson didn't play in any of those 6 games at the end of last season. Darius Carey is gone for not following rules. Playing a defending conference champion in the 1st game of a new coach and season that has beaten you fairly easily going back to 2007 is a tough way to start the season. TY Hilton was a monster, and their coaches make up ways to get him the ball. I don't think we give them enough credit for having become a team that represents our conference well in bowl games.

We should definitely give FIU more credit. That may be as good a Sun Belt team as the conference has ever fielded. T.Y. Hilton is incredible. The current Sports Illustrated has him as one of the four "players to watch" on unranked teams.

I'm disappointed in that trainwreck of a first quarter, but I like how the team responded the rest of the game. We held FIU's offense to 13 points, our defense and special teams produced 16 points, and our offense finally started moving the ball and ended up with 301 total yards. Chancellor and Outlaw had some nice catches and Dunbar looked great on that swing pass he took for 30 yards.

[MeanMag]

We should definitely give FIU more credit. That may be as good a Sun Belt team as the conference has ever fielded. T.Y. Hilton is incredible. The current Sports Illustrated has him as one of the four "players to watch" on unranked teams.

I'm disappointed in that trainwreck of a first quarter, but I like how the team responded the rest of the game. We held FIU's offense to 13 points, our defense and special teams produced 16 points, and our offense finally started moving the ball and ended up with 301 total yards. Chancellor and Outlaw had some nice catches and Dunbar looked great on that swing pass he took for 30 yards.

Yep. I thought our game plan should be obvious to everyone going into the game. Get Dunbar going. Everyone on defense was watching the run, and FIU dared our new QB to make throws and he overthrew the entire game. That's a sound defensive game plan against us. Credit FIU.

I also thought our play calling adapted well when FIU was able to execute in the 1st Q. Receivers dropped balls, but Chancellor made some great catches and got YAC. We had missed FGs and a questionable TD called out of bounds.

Edited September 2, 2011 by MeanMag

[CanaTigers]

Both lines are in need of help. They should concentrate heavily on recruiting from the JUCO ranks to upgrade the lines for next year. I would be making offers to a lot of kids at Navarro and Blinn.

[LongJim]

Both lines are in need of help. They should concentrate heavily on recruiting from the JUCO ranks to upgrade the lines for next year. I would be making offers to a lot of kids at Navarro and Blinn.

100% agree. I think Mac will do just that short-term. Keep in mind that a sticking point is eligibility, but again, I agree short-term. Long term: Keep going after the HS studs.

[greenminer]

When did JJ go down? What was the score up to that point, and how were we looking in the trenches?

[CaribbeanGreen]

Speaking of young teams, Utah State starts 3 sophomores on the OL, has only 1 senior, and a TRUE Freshman at QB (from Cypress, TX, btw)... and has gone into Auburn and punched the national champs in the mouth, up 21-7 in the 2nd quarter and dominating T-O-P. They'll probably lose, but they're putting up points with new starters galore and a much bigger talent gap than we had.

I stand by what I said. You can and should be expected to score with new starters. We had a bad, bad, BAD night in Miami, and I expect that to turn around - even if it doesn't translate into wins and huge numbers this season. It won't - CAN'T- be expected, excused or become the norm. All I've said this whole thread. Stand by it.

Edited September 3, 2011 by CaribbeanGreen

[Harry]

I don't know why people don't get that losing Rileys running ability hurts us and Lance specifically. A running QB can make your oline look great. Neither Thompson or Osborn are running threats and our wide receivers were dropping passes. Not a good combination!

[ForneyGreen]

I don't know why people don't get that losing Rileys running ability hurts us and Lance specifically. A running QB can make your oline look great. Neither Thompson or Osborn are running threats and our wide receivers were dropping passes. Not a good combination!

I will say this... we need to decide exactly what type of offense we are going to be. Are we going to be the offense of last year with zone reads/options and mostly a short passing game? Are we going to be a smashmouth/grinding offense? In Game 1, our scheme looked like we weren't exactly sure what we wanted to be. If we are going to be the offense of last year, then we need a QB that can run that offense.

Thompson made some pretty good throws - that one improvised throw to Outlaw in the corner of the end zone (the touchdown that wasn't ruled a touchdown) was a very nice throw. Some of his other throws looked slow. Those quick outs need to have a lot more zip on the ball - it seemed like it took forever for the ball to get to the receiver sometimes. And then when receivers drop balls and mistime jumps... that is just a killer.

Osborn also made a few good throws but scares me with a couple of his decisions. I think 2 of his throws would have been a pick-6 against a better secondary (e.g. Houston and Alabama).

[CaribbeanGreen]

I don't know why people don't get that losing Rileys running ability hurts us and Lance specifically. A running QB can make your oline look great. Neither Thompson or Osborn are running threats and our wide receivers were dropping passes. Not a good combination!

great, great point. That explains a lot if you revisit the game. I'm willing to throw the young o-line under the bus for the shutout, but there's no doubt they were a mere part of a much bigger issue. Hopefully we can adapt quickly.

[jimbob]

That's a cheap shot. JC himself wouldn't have done much better. Get real folks...this ship is going to take time to turn around.

Sorry, the game was poorly coached even under the circumstances.

[island eagle]

Sorry, the game was poorly coached even under the circumstances.

In your "expert" opinion. I'm sure you think that TD left the pantry stocked and we have real superb talent to work with.

[CaribbeanGreen]

In your "expert" opinion. I'm sure you think that TD left the pantry stocked and we have real superb talent to work with.

Absolutely not... but I do think it was better than it showed on Thursday. I expect to see season long improvement with this same talent that's being mocked, and the excuses to be dropped pretty quickly.