Riley Update

[Brett Vito]

DRC

[Green Dozer]

I think you start Baine Saturday, and go with him as the starter the rest of the season. Another valiant and courageous effort by Riley on Saturday will do more harm than good this time around, IMHO.

[drex]

I think it's time for Todd Dodge, the dad, to tell Todd Dodge, the coach, to tell Riley Dodge that he is concerned for his health and not put him in harm's way the rest of the season. Good God, how many injuries do you want to put Riley through?

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

Herein lies the problem with Todd Dodge, and keeping him simply for pity's sake because of this season's injuries - his recruiting of quarterbacks has been horrible.

He stole Giovanni Vizza, a kid who had offers from Nevada and Army - both schools doing much better than we are at this point, four years later. Other than that, he's signed Derek Thompson.

Yes, he signed his son. But, his son was never big enough to play college football. And, such has manifested itself in turnovers and injuries.

As a result of his poor quarterback recruiting, we rolled into the season with former Darrell Dickey walk-on Nathan Tune in the lead role. And, he performed so well, you had to wonder if Todd Dodge was being completely honest by not giving him a shot to start in 2009.

The remainder of our season is in the hands, let's face it, of a back-up who originally walked on and was playing receiver, Chase Baine, and another walk-on named Dodson, a kid who garnered no other offers.

The bottom line is this - injuries or not, Todd Dodge has put us in a precarious situation at quarterback for 2011. If this season continues to wash out, he must go. And, his replacement has got to be a guy who can sign a couple of legitimate JUCO quarterbacks to provide authentic competition with Thompson for the starting job in 2011 and give us a chance to win immediately.

OU did this with Bob Stoops and Josh Heupel back in 1999 when John Blake (even flush with cash apparently) left the Sooners with a big, steaming bowl of nothing at quarterback. We've got to hire big and get a guy in here who can legitimately spot and develop quarterback talent.

This was supposed to be - we were told endlessly - Todd Dodge's strength. According to the Vizza's, that's what hooked Giovanni when obviously more experienced coaches were knocking at his door. It wasn't and hasn't been. Not even close.

We absolutely must have a coach who understands the difference between what a high school quarterback is and what a college quarterback is. And, someone who can develop them once they take up residence in Denton.

And, he's got to sign a JUCO QB. I said the same thing last year. This thing has always been on thin ice at QB. We needed another legitimate QB for this season. We just don't have it. The next coach has got to be one who signs a QB with every class.

Edited October 6, 2010 by The Fake Lonnie Finch

[Keith7]

Herein lies the problem with Todd Dodge, and keeping him simply for pity's sake because of this season's injuries - his recruiting of quarterbacks has been horrible.

He stole Giovanni Vizza, a kid who had offers from Nevada and Army - both schools doing much better than we are at this point, four years later. Other than that, he's signed Derek Thompson.

Yes, he signed his son. But, his son was never big enough to play college football. And, such has manifested itself in turnovers and injuries.

As a result of his poor quarterback recruiting, we rolled into the season with former Darrell Dickey walk-on Nathan Tune in the lead role. And, he performed so well, you had to wonder if Todd Dodge was being completely honest by not giving him a shot to start in 2009.

The remainder of our season is in the hands, let's face it, of a back-up who originally walked on and was playing receiver, Chase Baine, and another walk-on named Dodson, a kid who garnered no other offers.

The bottom line is this - injuries or not, Todd Dodge has put us in a precarious situation at quarterback for 2011. If this season continues to wash out, he must go. And, his replacement has got to be a guy who can sign a couple of legitimate JUCO quarterbacks to provide authentic competition with Thompson for the starting job in 2011 and give us a chance to win immediately.

OU did this with Bob Stoops and Josh Heupel back in 1999 when John Blake (even flush with cash apparently) left the Sooners with a big, steaming bowl of nothing at quarterback. We've got to hire big and get a guy in here who can legitimately spot and develop quarterback talent.

This was supposed to be - we were told endlessly - Todd Dodge's strength. According to the Vizza's, that's what hooked Giovanni when obviously more experienced coaches were knocking at his door. It wasn't and hasn't been. Not even close.

We absolutely must have a coach who understands the difference between what a high school quarterback is and what a college quarterback is. And, someone who can develop them once they take up residence in Denton.

And, he's got to sign a JUCO QB. I said the same thing last year. This thing has always been on thin ice at QB. We needed another legitimate QB for this season. We just don't have it. The next coach has got to be one who signs a QB with every class.

wow :facepalm:

[All About UNT]

Herein lies the problem with Todd Dodge, and keeping him simply for pity's sake because of this season's injuries - his recruiting of quarterbacks has been horrible.

He stole Giovanni Vizza, a kid who had offers from Nevada and Army - both schools doing much better than we are at this point, four years later. Other than that, he's signed Derek Thompson.

Yes, he signed his son. But, his son was never big enough to play college football. And, such has manifested itself in turnovers and injuries.

As a result of his poor quarterback recruiting, we rolled into the season with former Darrell Dickey walk-on Nathan Tune in the lead role. And, he performed so well, you had to wonder if Todd Dodge was being completely honest by not giving him a shot to start in 2009.

The remainder of our season is in the hands, let's face it, of a back-up who originally walked on and was playing receiver, Chase Baine, and another walk-on named Dodson, a kid who garnered no other offers.

The bottom line is this - injuries or not, Todd Dodge has put us in a precarious situation at quarterback for 2011. If this season continues to wash out, he must go. And, his replacement has got to be a guy who can sign a couple of legitimate JUCO quarterbacks to provide authentic competition with Thompson for the starting job in 2011 and give us a chance to win immediately.

OU did this with Bob Stoops and Josh Heupel back in 1999 when John Blake (even flush with cash apparently) left the Sooners with a big, steaming bowl of nothing at quarterback. We've got to hire big and get a guy in here who can legitimately spot and develop quarterback talent.

This was supposed to be - we were told endlessly - Todd Dodge's strength. According to the Vizza's, that's what hooked Giovanni when obviously more experienced coaches were knocking at his door. It wasn't and hasn't been. Not even close.

We absolutely must have a coach who understands the difference between what a high school quarterback is and what a college quarterback is. And, someone who can develop them once they take up residence in Denton.

And, he's got to sign a JUCO QB. I said the same thing last year. This thing has always been on thin ice at QB. We needed another legitimate QB for this season. We just don't have it. The next coach has got to be one who signs a QB with every class.

Take Troy's QB Corey Robinson...a redshirt freshman..here are his stats:

1503 yds thrown so far in 2010 with a projection of over 3600 yds by end of season

11 TD passes with a mere 3 INTs....projection of 26 TDs and 7 INTs.

Corey's ESPN stats

now look at his recruitment profile on Yahoo...outside of Troy he was offered by Murray St. and Eastern Ky and was a modest two-star

Yahoo stats

as a junior he posted 2,600 yds... 29 TDs and 14 INTs. He had all the makings of being someone overlooked and obviously he was. I watched last night this kid aim his laser at a very capable receiving corps that seemingly couldn't drop a pass.

Maybe Chase or Dodson is this kid (better hope so) but I agree that our QB hunt needs to occur every year without fail.

[Cr1028]

The remainder of our season is in the hands, let's face it, of a back-up who originally walked on and was playing receiver, Chase Baine, and another walk-on named Dodson, a kid who garnered no other offers.

In fairness, Baine was offered by Navy and Air Force, allegedly.

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

In fairness, Baine was offered by Navy and Air Force, allegedly.

Fair enough. I simply looked back at the high school recruiting thing from Rivals and saw no offers: http://rivals.yahoo.com/footballrecruiting/football/recruiting/player-Chase-Baine-45462

I do know that he worked at receiver once here until our depth at QB got thin.

The overarching point is - look where we are at QB. In four recruiting classes we've had Vizza, at the time a true legitimate prospect, and Thompson, somewhat of a project with few offers.

Other than that, we've got walk-ons and Riley, who never was big enough to withstand the punishment of the position at this level.

This is what we have after four years of "QB Guru" head coach? I mean, something just doesn't jibe about the whole situation.

You sign a quarterback every year. Not an athlete who maybe can play quarterback in a pinch. But, a legitimate quarterback.

A guy like Thompson from a smaller place, who can be brought along? Fine, if you've got the depth necessary to bring him along.

The problem is, we get to 2010 and our new offensive coordinator is looking around for his triggerman...and what does he really have?

After this season, we'll have Thompson and Thompson alone as the only true QB on the roster. That's not right. The new head coach needs to sign at least one JUCO and one prep QB. The depth of the position was thin going into 2010. The nightmare scenarios have all played out, and now we need someone to come in here and approach it correctly.

I'm sorry, but Todd Dodge did not in any way, shape, or form make the quarterback position stronger than he found it when hired. And, in fact, may have even set it back. Riley's injury just exposes the flawed recruiting and developing at the position all the more.

[NovaScotiaGreen]

In fairness, Baine was offered by Navy and Air Force, allegedly.

That means he's smart... no other real guarantees there though.

[McKinneyMiner]

Any good recruiter will constantly be bringing in QB's with every recruiting class...

Most may not ever play a single down as a QB, but they are often very successfully turned into other positions because generally a high school QB is the best athlete on a team...

You can NEVER recruit too many QB's...

Edited October 7, 2010 by McKinneyMiner

[greenminer]

...because generally a high school QB is the best athlete on a team...

I thought was an idea that was generally left in high school, where a good-enough athlete can take over a game.

I never thought it translated so well to the next levels, although we are seeing people try harder and harder to make running QBs work. Still, the best QBs will always be the guys that can read defenses and go through their reads...

[Green Crazy]

he recruited qb's in each class, he just didn't recruit them that well.

vizza 07, riley 08, thompson 09, dodson and teagarden 10 (there was also the qb from skyline that gave his verbal to us only to sign at utep, javia hall?). he also recruited another qb in riley's class, but now he's starting at lb.

knowing what you know now you can criticize signing riley as a qb, but no one knew for sure at the time if it would work or not. if hall would have signed, the weakest year for qb's probably would have been thompson's.

[gangrene]

he recruited qb's in each class, he just didn't recruit them that well.

vizza 07, riley 08, thompson 09, dodson and teagarden 10 (there was also the qb from skyline that gave his verbal to us only to sign at utep, javia hall?). he also recruited another qb in riley's class, but now he's starting at lb.

knowing what you know now you can criticize signing riley as a qb, but no one knew for sure at the time if it would work or not. if hall would have signed, the weakest year for qb's probably would have been thompson's.

Don't forget the 6'5" former Denison HS QB, Jordan Taylor, whom Dodge recruited very heavily last January, We eventually lost Taylor to Rice, where he committed to play WR.

[UNTLifer]

Herein lies the problem with Todd Dodge, and keeping him simply for pity's sake because of this season's injuries - his recruiting of quarterbacks has been horrible.

He stole Giovanni Vizza, a kid who had offers from Nevada and Army - both schools doing much better than we are at this point, four years later. Other than that, he's signed Derek Thompson.

Yes, he signed his son. But, his son was never big enough to play college football. And, such has manifested itself in turnovers and injuries.

As a result of his poor quarterback recruiting, we rolled into the season with former Darrell Dickey walk-on Nathan Tune in the lead role. And, he performed so well, you had to wonder if Todd Dodge was being completely honest by not giving him a shot to start in 2009.

The remainder of our season is in the hands, let's face it, of a back-up who originally walked on and was playing receiver, Chase Baine, and another walk-on named Dodson, a kid who garnered no other offers.

The bottom line is this - injuries or not, Todd Dodge has put us in a precarious situation at quarterback for 2011. If this season continues to wash out, he must go. And, his replacement has got to be a guy who can sign a couple of legitimate JUCO quarterbacks to provide authentic competition with Thompson for the starting job in 2011 and give us a chance to win immediately.

OU did this with Bob Stoops and Josh Heupel back in 1999 when John Blake (even flush with cash apparently) left the Sooners with a big, steaming bowl of nothing at quarterback. We've got to hire big and get a guy in here who can legitimately spot and develop quarterback talent.

This was supposed to be - we were told endlessly - Todd Dodge's strength. According to the Vizza's, that's what hooked Giovanni when obviously more experienced coaches were knocking at his door. It wasn't and hasn't been. Not even close.

We absolutely must have a coach who understands the difference between what a high school quarterback is and what a college quarterback is. And, someone who can develop them once they take up residence in Denton.

And, he's got to sign a JUCO QB. I said the same thing last year. This thing has always been on thin ice at QB. We needed another legitimate QB for this season. We just don't have it. The next coach has got to be one who signs a QB with every class.

Oh, the shine has worn off the old "8 win, hello Coach Chico" TFLF and once again hindsight reigns supreme!

[LongJim]

Yes, anything to distract from the real issues for this team, and squarely focus on excuses for the most talented side of the ballclub and your personal pets.

[SilverEagle]

Ya'know, I've never been a head coach, but all this "can Riley play with a soft cast" stuff is counterproductive to getting your next QB ready to play. If I were head coach, I would never hesitate. I would look Chase Baine in the eye and say.."Chase, the team is in your hands now, let's get ready for Ark St.". Anything else just sends the message that the coach doesn't think he can do it. It sends the same message to the rest of the team as well.

Edited October 7, 2010 by SilverEagle

[The Fake Lonnie Finch]

Oh, the shine has worn off the old "8 win, hello Coach Chico" TFLF and once again hindsight reigns supreme!

Before the season, there was no reason not to be that optimistic.

Every one of our Sun Belt foes had major losses due to graduation except Western Kentucky - and, we'd already proved we could handle up on the Hilltoppers! Meanwhile, we were going to field lots of experienced players on both sides of the ball.

We had an offensive coordinator and receiver coach to round out a coaching staff that would finally be comprised of college coaches. And, we thought we'd signed a kicker who could walk onto campus, take the job, and help make our special teams respectable again.

Then, the injuries came. And, injuries do what they do - tell the world how deep your team is. And, the truth is, behind what was a very shiny surface before the season laid a team in ruin. Which is too bad. Not getting blown out against Clemson and playing a Rice team that beat us by 56 two years prior to a one point loss had it looking like this thing was going to get off the ground.

Everybody takes a side. I've long taken the side of not being as forgiving to Dodge for riding out the 2006 high school playoffs instead of turning Southlake over to Wasson and getting out on the recruiting trail for us.

I've been told not to count the 2007 class against Dodge because of those circumstances. Well...whether you personally count it against him or not, it shows up on the field when you have the type of circumstances we've had this year.

I think in the end, when we look at the condition this program will be in after this season - when we are the ones with many graduating and moving on - we'll have to just shrug it all off as a high risk gamble gone bad.

We've been plugging in JUCOs in many places this year and last to make up for Dodge's 2007 and 2008 classes. The next coach will have to find bona fide JUCO players at QB and along both lines, and probably in the secondary again. Otherwise, we head into the new stadium with a very inexperienced, unproven bunch.

In short, Dodge's four years will not have rebuilt the program as many had hoped. The new coach will be starting even further down below Darrell Dickey's seemingly elusive 3-win benchmark set in his final season. Amazing.

[aztecskin]

I suppose I should just put up my stance on this topic on the Denia guy' thread, or maybe the mgn site so I won't have to re-hash this again.

In any case, TFLL brings up a good point about Quarterbacks. Talent evaluation is notoriously hit-and-miss, and given the resources Papa Dodge has to work with, he has to be shrewd.

I am not defending the guy, he is hired to win games (in addition to schmoozing for dollars) and he hasn't.

Take a guy like Jim Harbaugh -- the dude took a crappy U of San Diego team and won, then took a horrible, horrible Stanford team and turned them into top-25 material.

Dodge took a three-win team and turned them into a perennial one-or-two win teams.

He can still coach some offense, though. So there's that.

[Green Mean]

He can still coach some offense, though. So there's that.

Can he?

[NT1978]

Can he?

between the 20's, yes.

[aztecskin]

between the 20's, yes.

Yeah. Our offensive production is up from those last Dickey* years. Everything else is way down, unfortunately.

I think ol' Papa Dodge would make a decent o-coordinator someplace, though I think he'll run back to HS once he gets the boot.

*wrote 'Dodge' at first.

Edited October 7, 2010 by aztecskin

[meangreanmick]

Yeah, Dodge definitely should have known that we would have 3 QB's with season ending injuries. Vizza is a quitter, nothing he could have done about that. Vizza doesn't quit and Derek Thompson or Riley is our 4th string QB and we are fine - until our 4th string QB goes down for the season as well. In fact, Vizza doesn't quit and THompson doesn't lose his red shirt last season.

Herein lies the problem with Todd Dodge, and keeping him simply for pity's sake because of this season's injuries - his recruiting of quarterbacks has been horrible.

He stole Giovanni Vizza, a kid who had offers from Nevada and Army - both schools doing much better than we are at this point, four years later. Other than that, he's signed Derek Thompson.

Yes, he signed his son. But, his son was never big enough to play college football. And, such has manifested itself in turnovers and injuries.

As a result of his poor quarterback recruiting, we rolled into the season with former Darrell Dickey walk-on Nathan Tune in the lead role. And, he performed so well, you had to wonder if Todd Dodge was being completely honest by not giving him a shot to start in 2009.

The remainder of our season is in the hands, let's face it, of a back-up who originally walked on and was playing receiver, Chase Baine, and another walk-on named Dodson, a kid who garnered no other offers.

The bottom line is this - injuries or not, Todd Dodge has put us in a precarious situation at quarterback for 2011. If this season continues to wash out, he must go. And, his replacement has got to be a guy who can sign a couple of legitimate JUCO quarterbacks to provide authentic competition with Thompson for the starting job in 2011 and give us a chance to win immediately.

OU did this with Bob Stoops and Josh Heupel back in 1999 when John Blake (even flush with cash apparently) left the Sooners with a big, steaming bowl of nothing at quarterback. We've got to hire big and get a guy in here who can legitimately spot and develop quarterback talent.

This was supposed to be - we were told endlessly - Todd Dodge's strength. According to the Vizza's, that's what hooked Giovanni when obviously more experienced coaches were knocking at his door. It wasn't and hasn't been. Not even close.

We absolutely must have a coach who understands the difference between what a high school quarterback is and what a college quarterback is. And, someone who can develop them once they take up residence in Denton.

And, he's got to sign a JUCO QB. I said the same thing last year. This thing has always been on thin ice at QB. We needed another legitimate QB for this season. We just don't have it. The next coach has got to be one who signs a QB with every class.

[UNT90]

Before the season, there was no reason not to be that optimistic.

Everybody takes a side. I've long taken the side of not being as forgiving to Dodge for riding out the 2006 high school playoffs instead of turning Southlake over to Wasson and getting out on the recruiting trail for us.

Yes, there was reason not to be optimistic. It was called 2/3rds of the freaking football team. Defense and Special Teams. Last years defense was terrible, and no real impact players appeared to be on the horizon. They have only shown modest signs of improvement this year.

Special teams have been consistent since the Dodge hire, consistently terrible, and have only shown modest signs of improvement this year

The fact that this team has never won back to back games.

The fact that we were starting the season with an unproven QB.

The fact that just about every major objective season preview picked us 7th or 8th in the league.

But as your second statemnt indicates, you don't appear interested in facts, rather just picking a "side".

There were several of us that had concerns long before the injuries, but were just shouted down as illogical preseason optimism flowed. I get it, everyone wants hope at the beginning of a new season, but to sell hope as "there was no reason not to be that optimistic" is, well, taking a side, and not dealing with facts.

[aztecskin]

Yeah, Dodge definitely should have known that we would have 3 QB's with season ending injuries. Vizza is a quitter, nothing he could have done about that. Vizza doesn't quit and Derek Thompson or Riley is our 4th string QB and we are fine - until our 4th string QB goes down for the season as well. In fact, Vizza doesn't quit and THompson doesn't lose his red shirt last season.

Every head coach has players that quit and/or get suspended etc. No one said he should have foreseen the future-- just that he is partly at fault for the predicament.

To his credit, we aren't horrible this year. You all good with more almost-could-have-been one point losses and special teams gaffes?

Cool. I can see the good in those games.

Though It is a lot easier to get my wife and non-hardcore football friends to come to a game with this line: "Yeah they are good this year! Dunbar tearing it up!" than this one: "The have lost four but they were all close and we have a lot of injuries--who is snarky puppy?"

Edited October 7, 2010 by aztecskin

[McKinneyMiner]

The next coach will have to finda bona fide JUCO player at QB

I am all for JUCO talent to fill in gaps when the talent is thin...

But, as far as quarterbacks go, when the big boys have plucked the Cam Newton's of the world off the board what is really left...??

I would say that although it might be necessary to plug in a JUCO QB while your younger, more talented players get their bearings, I doubt UNT can find someone who is going to provide them with the talent and leadership that is going to translate into more wins...

There are some really good JUCO QB's, but they tend to go to the big schools to fill in THEIR gaps...

What does that really leave us with...??

Edited October 7, 2010 by McKinneyMiner