Abc News: Geithner Won’t Rule Out New Taxes For Middle Class

[FirefightnRick]

http://blogs.abcnews.com/george/2009/08/ge...ddle-class.html

To get the economy back on track, will President Barack Obama have to break his pledge not to raise taxes on 95 percent of Americans? In a “This Week” exclusive, Treasury Secretary Tim Geithner told me, "We’re going to have to do what’s necessary.”

Geithner was clear that he believes a key component of economic recovery is deficit reduction. When I gave him several opportunities to rule out a middle class tax hike, he wouldn’t do it.

“We have to bring these deficits down very dramatically,” Geithner told me. “And that’s going to require some very hard choices.”

Rick

[UNTflyer]

I posted this yesterday and it was mysteriously deleted.

[Censored by Laurie]

Mantra

[EagleGreen]

It looks like the bossman is correcting Geithner pretty quickly: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/03...class-tax-hike/

"I am reiterating the president's clear commitment in the clearest terms possible that he's not raising taxes on those who make less than $250,000 a year"

Whew! Good to know.

[UNTflyer]

It looks like the bossman is correcting Geithner pretty quickly: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/03...class-tax-hike/

"I am reiterating the president's clear commitment in the clearest terms possible that he's not raising taxes on those who make less than $250,000 a year"

Whew! Good to know.

Semantics. He won't RAISE taxes, he'll just introduce a new one. I pointed this out during the campaign when Obama specifically used the term "income tax" in his promise.

He said: "Under my plan, no family making less than $250,000 a year will see any form of tax increase. Not your income tax, not your payroll tax, not your capital gains taxes, not any of your taxes."

However, he almost immediately signed an increase in tobacco tax. And he wants to allow the Bush income tax cuts (which cut taxes on every taxpayer) to expire. So we already know his promises are crap, like it is with most politicians.

[eeally]

Hello, you F wads think Barrack wants to raise taxes on you people....guess what it is the deficits left to us by your administration. So just shut up and take it. You really think after the massive military buildup....cutting taxes on wealthy corporations, bailing out Wall Street right before leaving office, no absolutely no oversight by Delay and Gingrich on the housing market. That we would be in this mess.

Your administration caused it so you could say yea we are invading a country......... So deal with it!!!!! You people need to understand, the system was broken and now we are trying to rebuild parts of the engine...so just try to keep up that positive attitude you had for the last 8 years while you looked at your Brokerage statement and thought why is this not moving?

Or why your insurance premiums are going skyrocketing up........

WHY WOULD WE NEED TO RAISE TAXES ON THE MIDDLE CLASS RIGHT NOW? To pay old debts my friend! I hope you enjoy singing God Bless America at the ballpark because after 9/11 there was no more take me out to the ballgame.....which is a much happier song in my opinion! I do also love the national anthem.....but one is enough don't you think.

[oldguystudent]

Laffer curve illustration in 5...4...3..2...

[UNTflyer]

Hello, you F wads think Barrack wants to raise taxes on you people....guess what it is the deficits left to us by your administration. So just shut up and take it. You really think after the massive military buildup....cutting taxes on wealthy corporations, bailing out Wall Street right before leaving office, no absolutely no oversight by Delay and Gingrich on the housing market. That we would be in this mess.

Your administration caused it so you could say yea we are invading a country......... So deal with it!!!!! You people need to understand, the system was broken and now we are trying to rebuild parts of the engine...so just try to keep up that positive attitude you had for the last 8 years while you looked at your Brokerage statement and thought why is this not moving?

Or why your insurance premiums are going skyrocketing up........

WHY WOULD WE NEED TO RAISE TAXES ON THE MIDDLE CLASS RIGHT NOW? To pay old debts my friend! I hope you enjoy singing God Bless America at the ballpark because after 9/11 there was no more take me out to the ballgame.....which is a much happier song in my opinion! I do also love the national anthem.....but one is enough don't you think.

If deficits concern you, where is your outrage over the Obama deficits? If he is raising taxes to pay old debts, who is going to pay the crushing new debts?

Newt Gingrich??? He left office in 1999 my friend.

The only thing broken about the system was Clinton-era policies of forcing banks to make loans they didn't want to make.

I love the buzz words... "bailing out Wall Street"... "cutting taxes on wealthy corporations"... That's just a shortcut to real thinking.

[Quoner]

Hello, you F wads think Barrack wants to raise taxes on you people....guess what it is the deficits left to us by your administration. So just shut up and take it. You really think after the massive military buildup....cutting taxes on wealthy corporations, bailing out Wall Street right before leaving office, no absolutely no oversight by Delay and Gingrich on the housing market. That we would be in this mess.

Your administration caused it so you could say yea we are invading a country......... So deal with it!!!!! You people need to understand, the system was broken and now we are trying to rebuild parts of the engine...so just try to keep up that positive attitude you had for the last 8 years while you looked at your Brokerage statement and thought why is this not moving?

Or why your insurance premiums are going skyrocketing up........

WHY WOULD WE NEED TO RAISE TAXES ON THE MIDDLE CLASS RIGHT NOW? To pay old debts my friend! I hope you enjoy singing God Bless America at the ballpark because after 9/11 there was no more take me out to the ballgame.....which is a much happier song in my opinion! I do also love the national anthem.....but one is enough don't you think.

With apologies to Fire Joe Morgan (and this is not me taking a political stance, just an ode to logic and mockery):

Hello.

Why hello there.

you F wads think Barrack wants to raise taxes on you people

The "F wads" obviously do think that, so I hope you are setting them up with a good counter-argument.

guess what it is the deficits left to us by your administration.

The hypothetical tax increase is? I assume this means that your counter is that Obama really doesn't want to raise taxes but the deficit left by the previous administration is too high, but then, aren't you just agreeing and offering the same rationale my mother used before she spanked me?

So just shut up and take it.

Bobby Knight agrees.

You really think after the massive military buildup....cutting taxes on wealthy corporations, bailing out Wall Street right before leaving office, no absolutely no oversight by Delay and Gingrich on the housing market.

Not sure how to respond to this sentence. Yes?

That we would be in this mess.

So, you're horribly constructed sentences ask me if I really think that we would be in this mess after those things happened? Also, you seem to have periods pretty much down, but a quick review of commas, apostrophes and how to change would to wouldn't should be on your afternoon to-do list.

Your administration caused it so you could say yea we are invading a country......... So deal with it!!!!!

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 I want to be confused, but the 5 exclamation points and 9 periods (or is that 3 ellipses) make me just to want to invade Iran once the Afghanistan thing blows over.

You people need to understand,

What do you mean you people? Also, congrats on the comma.

the system was broken and now we are trying to rebuild parts of the engine...

If my car is totaled, I usually don't sit around trying to fix the timing belt, but okay.

so just try to keep up that positive attitude you had for the last 8 years while you looked at your Brokerage statement and thought why is this not moving?

No one made money during the past 8 years?

Or why your insurance premiums are going skyrocketing up........WHY WOULD WE NEED TO RAISE TAXES ON THE MIDDLE CLASS RIGHT NOW? To pay old debts my friend!

The core statement that makes sense and summarizes your argument....buried in the crazy. You did us a favor by putting it in caps, but I recommend leading with it next time.

I hope you enjoy singing God Bless America at the ballpark because after 9/11 there was no more take me out to the ballgame.....which is a much happier song in my opinion! I do also love the national anthem.....but one is enough don't you think.

Then we finish the race by passing on the outside, cutting in front of our rival, zip to the front, fence him off and then....we wave our genitals out the window, do a figure eight in the infield and then crash the car into the crowd in a fiery wreckage of death.

I can't even figure out how you got here, but that's not the point. Do you attend baseball games? God Bless America is not even played at every game anymore - and, when it is (like say, last night's Rangers game) - they play "Take Me Out to the Ball Game" right afterward. They added a part about socialized medicine and a pledge of allegiance to the Cheney family, but it's still all there.

Dude, your arguments are there and you can expound on them. You're not a dumb dude - just try self-editing every so often. We want to help you, but only you can open the door to change.

[yyz28]

Hello, you F wads think Barrack wants to raise taxes on you people....guess what it is the deficits left to us by your administration. So just shut up and take it. You really think after the massive military buildup....cutting taxes on wealthy corporations, bailing out Wall Street right before leaving office, no absolutely no oversight by Delay and Gingrich on the housing market. That we would be in this mess.

3 words into it and you're already calling names. Pretty interesting. Well, let's start with the point of this thread. This thread was about the need to raise taxes to pay for the proposed healthcare reform. Geitner's comments and now Obama's rebuttal have nothing to do with bailing out wallstreet (voted for by this President), cutting taxes on corporations, military build up and the like.

There was no sizeable military buildup, as we've fought these wars with the troop level we had and equipment we had. The cost of the War in Iraq and afganistan to date is roughly 800 Billion. A sizeable sum, to be sure, but the President, during his first month in office, signed a stimulus bill which hasn't stimulated a single thing thus far, that, in one stroke of the pen, cost more than both wars combined. The economy would have recovered on its own faster than it will now with the burden of the stimulus and this huge debt that has been incurred.

Your rant about corporate taxes is funny and mis-informed. Currently, the average combined federal and state corporate tax rate in the U.S. is 39.3 percent, second among OECD countries to Japan's combined rate of 39.5 percent.1 Lowering the federal rate to 30.5 percent would only lower the U.S.'s ranking to fifth highest among industrialized countries. Corporate tax rate brackets have remained unchanged since 1993. The last administration DID NOT cut corporate income taxes.

0 50,000 15%

50,000 75,000 25%

75,000 100,000 34%

100,000 335,000 39%

35,000 10,000,000 34%

10,000,000 15,000,000 35%

15,000,000 18,333,333 38%

18,333,333 .......... 35%

...but don't let the nubmers get in the way of your assertion. ...in addition, here's a little secret - CORPORATIONS DON'T PAY TAXES. How can this be? Simple. Instead of cut their margin, businesses pass the tax burden on to the consumer (you and me) and build it into the cost of goods sold. So, when you applaud the Obama administration when they finally "stick it to business" and increase Wal-Mart's income tax rate by 15%, don't be angry when your grocery bill goes up 15% at Wal-Mart. A Tax increase on business and those "Evil Corporations" is a tax increase on you.

Bailing out Wallstreet was a bad move, and many of us were mad at Congress (Including Obama and McCain) for voting yes and President Bush for signing it into law. ...so don't throw that back into our face - most of us who don't think Obama is doing the right thing disagreed with Bush when we did that. You don't have to agree with EVERYTHING the guy you voted for does. It is called freedom of speech, and guarantees that we don't HAVE to "So just shut up and take it" as you suggest.

Delay and Gingrich have NOTHING to do with this current crisis. ...and if you're GOING to put it on them (which a 5 minute reality check and google search will prove is a crock) you also have to put it on Clinton who signed anything they got passed into law. The lack of regulation isn't what caused this mess. It was the government putting its fat nose where it didn't belong in the first place that created this mess. Bush and McCain BOTH tried to get congress to change the Freddie Mac/Fannie May situation back in 2004 and again in 2006 and were ignored buy the likes of Barny Frank and Chris Dodd, the two hacks who are now in control of our financial comittees in Congress. I blame Bush for not making a big public deal of this when it may have helped, before the situation blew up, but it was most certainly NOT caused by a lack of oversight, and won't be fixed by having the Government run the banks and financial institutions.

Your administration caused it so you could say yea we are invading a country......... So deal with it!!!!! You people need to understand, the system was broken and now we are trying to rebuild parts of the engine...

The war didn't cause the economic problem. In fact, the war spurred on a good deal of business in this country. It was actually an economic stimulus. ...so much for that assertion. The system being broken isn't the problem. THE SYSTEM IS THE PROBLEM!!!! Government needs to be smaller, and less involved, and the economy will rock and roll along just fine without any help from a bunch of lawers in Washington who have never actually run a business out in the real world.

so just try to keep up that positive attitude you had for the last 8 years while you looked at your Brokerage statement and thought why is this not moving?

Yeah... all Republicans are Rich. The labels are a gas, they really are.

Or why your insurance premiums are going skyrocketing up........

Frivilous lawsuits. Having hospitals shift cost to those who pay since the government can't pay their bills. Lack of competition between states and increased regulations. If you believe government is going to actually drop the cost of healthcare you're insane. With unlimited supply and entitlement comes unlimited demand. There aren't enough doctors to cover the increase in demand. There aren't enough facilities. This will lead to rationing and decreased quality of care for the 85% of the country who already has quality health insurance. I'd rather pay higher premiums and get premium healthcare for my family and I than to turn my very life and healthcare decisions to the Government.

WHY WOULD WE NEED TO RAISE TAXES ON THE MIDDLE CLASS RIGHT NOW? To pay old debts my friend!

You LOWER taxes to increase reveunes to the Treasury. This is a history proven FACT time and time again. You don't raise taxes to pay old debts. ...and aren't you in the least bit concerned about the next generation who has to pay for the debts THIS President is amassing?

[FirefightnRick]

The OTHER Great Depression:1920-1923

It’s a few years after the war and things are dire indeed. US farm export sales crashed as European farms returned to production after WW1. The beginning of depression was extraordinarily sharp: the U.S. price level declined by over 40% in 6 months and 56% for the year. The highest decline ever in the whole history of the United States. The gross national product plunged 24 percent.

As the depression grew the President began to dismantle the huge federal bureaucracies built up during WW1. The Presidents slogan was "less government in business" as he opposed excessive governmental interference in the private sector of the economy and worked to control $25 billion of Federal debt. After taking office the President had said that government ought to "strike the shackles from industry .. We need vastly more freedom than we do regulation."

Cities and church charities opened soup kitchens. As industrial output fell unemployment rocketed to 12%. The States passed bonus bills as the President did nothing while the unemployed wondered the streets looking for work. Any work.

The relationship with congress deteriorated as the President asked the Senate to cut spending. Congress wanted government intervention and the President said no, insisting that relief measures were a local responsibility. While the President pushed through tax and spending cuts his relationship with Congress became severely strained.

But the complete break with Congress came after a group of powerful Senators passed a bonus bill. When the President vetoed that bill in an election year, both Republicans and Democrats were enraged. As the President lost the support of Congress, the Secretary of Commerce spoke out against the President in support of the people on main street.

Then in 1923 the great depression ended when unemployment fell from the 1921 high of 11.9% to the pre 1920 levels of 3.2%. About now you are thinking I don’t remember the depression of 1920. Well neither did I, and now I know why.

The 1921 loss of half the value and price of all goods was horrendous. For comparison the loss of housing value in the last year is around 18%, lower in many areas and a bit higher in others. Even though it was worse than 1930 we don’t remember the 1920 depression because the President didn’t tinker with the economy and built the groundwork to allow quick recovery without wide spread damage.

That President? That was Warren G Harding. Harding "embraced the advice of Treasury Secretary Andrew Mellon and called for tax cuts in his first message to Congress on April 12, 1921. The highest taxes, on corporate revenues and "excess" profits, were to be cut. Personal income taxes were to be left as is, with a top rate of 8 percent of incomes above $4,000. Harding recognized the crucial importance of encouraging the investment that is essential for growth and jobs, something that FDR never did."

Under Harding, GNP rebounded to $74.1 billion in 1922. The number of unemployed fell to 2.8 million, s reported 6.7 percent in 1922. Then fell again in 1923. So, just a year and a half after Harding became president, the Roaring Twenties were underway.

Edited August 4, 2009 by FirefightnRick

[eeally]

3 words into it and you're already calling names. Pretty interesting. Well, let's start with the point of this thread. This thread was about the need to raise taxes to pay for the proposed healthcare reform. Geitner's comments and now Obama's rebuttal have nothing to do with bailing out wallstreet (voted for by this President), cutting taxes on corporations, military build up and the like.

Sorry, Read my lips.....you are not a f...wad! If you don't want to go defunked you must raise taxes. We have already leveraged everything else. Now it is time to cut spending and raise taxes.

There was no sizeable military buildup, as we've fought these wars with the troop level we had and equipment we had. The cost of the War in Iraq and afganistan to date is roughly 800 Billion. A sizeable sum, to be sure, but the President, during his first month in office, signed a stimulus bill which hasn't stimulated a single thing thus far, that, in one stroke of the pen, cost more than both wars combined. The economy would have recovered on its own faster than it will now with the burden of the stimulus and this huge debt that has been incurred.

Less than 10% has been spent....so guess what ,,,, it has not stimulated much yet , however everywhere you look the signs of recovery are already showing. See Greenspans quote today!

Your rant about corporate taxes is funny and mis-informed. Currently, the average combined federal and state corporate tax rate in the U.S. is 39.3 percent, second among OECD countries to Japan's combined rate of 39.5 percent.1 Lowering the federal rate to 30.5 percent would only lower the U.S.'s ranking to fifth highest among industrialized countries. Corporate tax rate brackets have remained unchanged since 1993. The last administration DID NOT cut corporate income taxes.

0 50,000 15%

50,000 75,000 25%

75,000 100,000 34%

100,000 335,000 39%

35,000 10,000,000 34%

10,000,000 15,000,000 35%

15,000,000 18,333,333 38%

18,333,333 .......... 35%

...but don't let the nubmers get in the way of your assertion. ...in addition, here's a little secret - CORPORATIONS DON'T PAY TAXES. How can this be? Simple. Instead of cut their margin, businesses pass the tax burden on to the consumer (you and me) and build it into the cost of goods sold. So, when you applaud the Obama administration when they finally "stick it to business" and increase Wal-Mart's income tax rate by 15%, don't be angry when your grocery bill goes up 15% at Wal-Mart. A Tax increase on business and those "Evil Corporations" is a tax increase on you.

I do think that some corporations pay some taxes......I mean really? I heard IBM and DELL actually got refunds of over $1000 bucks.

I am almost positive that if they did not pay taxes that they would reward their workers with some more benefits. Or would they pass it along to us comsumers?

Bailing out Wallstreet was a bad move, and many of us were mad at Congress (Including Obama and McCain) for voting yes and President Bush for signing it into law. ...so don't throw that back into our face - most of us who don't think Obama is doing the right thing disagreed with Bush when we did that. You don't have to agree with EVERYTHING the guy you voted for does. It is called freedom of speech, and guarantees that we don't HAVE to "So just shut up and take it" as you suggest.

I am glad you see the points on both sides of the isle. I stand with you on not bailing out Wall Street. GM I could do without as well. Sure it would have plunged us into no mans land with so many pensions still out there but at least we won't see as many gas guzzlers on the road. I wonder if they will be able to adapt to current demand of more fuel efficient cars?

Who knows GM may come out to be a huge windfall for US taxpayers. We shall see! I bet when US puts all that stock on the market you will eat it up! Maybe not...it is a risk. But with American ingenuity behind it....we can't lose!

Delay and Gingrich have NOTHING to do with this current crisis. ...and if you're GOING to put it on them (which a 5 minute reality check and google search will prove is a crock) you also have to put it on Clinton who signed anything they got passed into law. The lack of regulation isn't what caused this mess. It was the government putting its fat nose where it didn't belong in the first place that created this mess. Bush and McCain BOTH tried to get congress to change the Freddie Mac/Fannie May situation back in 2004 and again in 2006 and were ignored buy the likes of Barny Frank and Chris Dodd, the two hacks who are now in control of our financial comittees in Congress. I blame Bush for not making a big public deal of this when it may have helped, before the situation blew up, but it was most certainly NOT caused by a lack of oversight, and won't be fixed by having the Government run the banks and financial institutions.

The war didn't cause the economic problem. In fact, the war spurred on a good deal of business in this country. It was actually an economic stimulus. ...so much for that assertion. The system being broken isn't the problem. THE SYSTEM IS THE PROBLEM!!!! Government needs to be smaller, and less involved, and the economy will rock and roll along just fine without any help from a bunch of lawers in Washington who have never actually run a business out in the real world.

Yeah... all Republicans are Rich. The labels are a gas, they really are.

Frivilous lawsuits. Having hospitals shift cost to those who pay since the government can't pay their bills. Lack of competition between states and increased regulations. If you believe government is going to actually drop the cost of healthcare you're insane. With unlimited supply and entitlement comes unlimited demand. There aren't enough doctors to cover the increase in demand. There aren't enough facilities. This will lead to rationing and decreased quality of care for the 85% of the country who already has quality health insurance. I'd rather pay higher premiums and get premium healthcare for my family and I than to turn my very life and healthcare decisions to the Government.

You LOWER taxes to increase reveunes to the Treasury. This is a history proven FACT time and time again. You don't raise taxes to pay old debts. ...and aren't you in the least bit concerned about the next generation who has to pay for the debts THIS President is amassing?

I am so sorry , I forgot that the Congress was all democrat now! Of course there is a deficit....Now what was the surplus # on Jan 1.

What is google? Anyway I an referring to REP congress 96--06. President was a guy named BUSH...he was a republican with a super dooper right wing conservative VP named Shotgun Cheney.

Look, whatever you want to say, the fact remains the OIL administration posted the largest profits in History.....

Laywers suck I agree.

Frivoulous lawsuits......only can come from an uneducated society......Why do juries continue to award these crazy verdicts? Where is the tort reform?

As far as healthcare...I don't know the answer. I do know that I pay close to $10,000 a year for my family and that is not to even see a doctor. The current system is broke!

Why not make it easier to let nurses diagnose problems and prescribe medicine. Why not let drug companies dispense drugs. Why must everything go through one doctor. If I have the flu. Then I need to get the good medicine. I mean really....why all the regulations on healthcare now! Let the poor take their chances with a person with a Masters from TWU.

I think both sides are missing the point. But for sure Private Healthcare providers has been posting profits in the billions for decades! And when corporations are not burdened with paying their employees healthcare then look out.............

As far as next generation that is FOX news talking. We will have a surplus when everything is firing correctly! Especially when we strip down the military, tax pot, and put more $ in consumers hands when the developing technology of greener ways....energy, not as much fuel meaning less dependent on foreign supply, kick in. It is an investment!

We are investing for our future generations.

I have never seen America so divided! I ask all of you to stop watching Fox news and stop listening to talk radio for one month! Then tell me you don't feel better.

[FirefightnRick]

I am so sorry , I forgot that the Congress was all democrat now! Of course there is a deficit....Now what was the surplus # on Jan 1.

What is google? Anyway I an referring to REP congress 96--06. President was a guy named BUSH...he was a republican with a super dooper right wing conservative VP named Shotgun Cheney.

Look, whatever you want to say, the fact remains the OIL administration posted the largest profits in History.....

Laywers suck I agree.

Frivoulous lawsuits......only can come from an uneducated society......Why do juries continue to award these crazy verdicts? Where is the tort reform?

As far as healthcare...I don't know the answer. I do know that I pay close to $10,000 a year for my family and that is not to even see a doctor. The current system is broke!

Why not make it easier to let nurses diagnose problems and prescribe medicine. Why not let drug companies dispense drugs. Why must everything go through one doctor. If I have the flu. Then I need to get the good medicine. I mean really....why all the regulations on healthcare now! Let the poor take their chances with a person with a Masters from TWU.

I think both sides are missing the point. But for sure Private Healthcare providers has been posting profits in the billions for decades! And when corporations are not burdened with paying their employees healthcare then look out.............

As far as next generation that is FOX news talking. We will have a surplus when everything is firing correctly! Especially when we strip down the military, tax pot, and put more $ in consumers hands when the developing technology of greener ways....energy, not as much fuel meaning less dependent on foreign supply, kick in. It is an investment!

We are investing for our future generations.

I have never seen America so divided! I ask all of you to stop watching Fox news and stop listening to talk radio for one month! Then tell me you don't feel better.

What??????

Rick

[EagleGreen]

What??????

Rick

You blew FRicks mind Eel. Baby Steps.

[DeepGreen]

Strip down the military-

Less dependence on foreign oil (no U.S. drilling), rely on air power and corn squeezings.

Brilliant!

[UNT90]

I have never seen America so divided! I ask all of you to stop watching Fox news and stop listening to talk radio for one month! Then tell me you don't feel better.

Oh, I see, we shouldn't be divided, we should come together and think just like you, a person that doesn't even know the steps needed for a constitutional amendment.

I fell and skinned my knee today. Bush must have tripped me.

Edited August 4, 2009 by UNT90

[yyz28]

Trying to understand what you are saying is rather difficult since it isn't complete sentences. In addition, some of the response is in the quote. Hard to read. ...but let me try and rebut.

Raising Taxes WILL NOT solve this problem. It will make it worse. When you raise taxes in a down economy, you will make the down economy worse and it will take longer to recover. No nation in the history of this world has taxed itself into prosperity. Not one. History is NOT on your side my friend. You've got to quit thinking that higher taxes means that the government will have more money to spend. In fact, the less is true. We must cut spending, and I don't mean strip down the military while the rest of the world powers get stronger and more agressive. I mean social spending, pork and "investment" in technologies that the free market has no interestet in them. You know why the free market doesn't invest in these technologies? ...because there is no market and thus money to be made on them.

You speak of the Government's forcing of GM to make cars people don't want as a big positive. GM already makes more fuel efficiant cars than Honda and Toyota. Honda and Toyota are discounting their cars now. People made car buying decisions based on gas milage for about 6 months when gas was at $4. The Government fired the CEO of GM who is responsible, along with Bob Lutz, with getting GM back where it needs to be, building cars customers want and that JD Power, Consumer Reports and Motor Trend respect. GM quality surpassed Toyota AND Honda according to JD Power under Wagoner and Lutz.

You then speak of the recovery. Yeah, there are s few good signs right now, no doubt. The market is up. Unemployment hasn't stopped climbing yet, but there are a few positive things happening right now. Here's the dirty little secret - had Bush and Obama done NOTHING in terms of pushing tax payer money at the problem in the TARP and in the STIMULUS - we'd be seeing the same results, and probably would have seen them a quarter ago. The passage of the stimulus slowed the recovery. ...and I fear, as history repeats itself when the math is undeniable, that this little blip is just that. As the stimulus money gets printed and then spent, inflation will follow. It ALWAYS happens. So you'll grow the economy by 3% with the stimulus, and you'll dilute the value of the dollar by 6%. Well, that's grand, we just had a net 3% economy shrinkage. It happened in the 30's. It happened in the 70's. It will happen now. We don't learn.

...the BEST part of your response, however, is the rant about how government regulation has destroyed healthcare, and yet you are sitting here promoting MORE government regulation of the industry. There is no consistancy to your statements.

Finally, I must say, with all due respect, your understanding of economics is lacking if you believe that doubling the debt in one shot isn't a bill that future generations will have to pay. You can't spend what you don't have today and not eventually pay the piper. Our monetary system is in very dangerous shape. We have a huge amount of debts in the hands of people who could call it at any second and in so doing cripple our economy overnight. You can't print money and spend money you don't have without something to back it up. Let me put it simply for you. If you are in debt that equalled 20 times your annual income, and you, in one purchase, double that debt, is there any chance that debt is paid back before you die asssuming your income stays relatively static? ...so why do you assume the US government can? We need to DEAL with the difficult time we have now, and we need to reign in this government, and not pass on the sins of those in power (and I don't mean obama, I mean members of both parties who have let this spending get out of control) to the next generation. I don't get this from Fox News - try a new talking point. I get it from a basic understanding of Math and Economics. You can argue the merits of deficit spending, but even the most ardent stimulus obama supporter who understands economics knows this debt has to be paid at some point and that deficit spending won't lead to budget surplus.

[UNTflyer]

I do know that I pay close to $10,000 a year for my family and that is not to even see a doctor. The current system is broke!

What's broke is your ability to shop around. Why is it my fault that you pay too much for insurance?

[UNTflyer]

If I have the flu. Then I need to get the good medicine.

There's part of the problem... there is no medicine for the flu. once you have it, you just need to ride it out. I bet you go to the doctor and demand antibiotics for your cold or flu, which do nothing.

[UNTflyer]

...and put more $ in consumers hands when the developing technology of greener ways....energy, not as much fuel meaning less dependent on foreign supply, kick in.

Jesus Harold Christ...

You really think you are going to have more money in your hands when MORE EXPENSIVE energy "kicks in"? Have you looked at the price of a compact fluorescent light bulb? have you read how much they are charging per KwH at "green" electric companies?

No wonder you love the Democrat Party so much... there's obviously no minimum IQ test.

[UNTflyer]

Strip down the military-

Less dependence on foreign oil (no U.S. drilling), rely on air power and corn squeezings.

Brilliant!

Yup. People just don't get it... you can't fuel the world on sunshine and unicorn farts.

[BeanCounterGrad'03]

Yup. People just don't get it... you can't fuel the world on sunshine and unicorn farts.

Uh, yes you can (if by unicorn farts you mean wind, geothermal, tidal, hydro, and biofuels). EDIT - forgot hydrogen

The only reason oil and coal are still used as fuel is because it is currently the cheapest form of fuel and it will remain that way for at least the near future. As demand for oil goes up, I don't expect that to be the case in the future (my guess...within the next 20-40 years). Coal will stick around a while longer at least here in the US because we have a sh*tload of it.

Edited August 4, 2009 by BeanCounterGrad'03

[oldguystudent]

I heard unicorn farts and sunshine are significant contributors to global warming.

[eeally]

Sorry for the long post earlier. It was like 2am or something. I was trying to use the quote to rebut some arguements. I will learn to navigate quotes and how to respond better.

I do have a low IQ.....very low indeed. Good thing I don't need a high one to discuss these items with you! whoever said that....

As for incomplete sentences, yes! I do flow on a stream of consciousness and I don't take my ADHD medicine after 3 pm.

As for shopping around for health insurance. I can get lower premiums yes! But the fact is that the policy I have in place makes the most sense for my current situation. I have seen first hand how inefficient our healthcare system is for sole propriotors. We cannot exclude pre-existing conditions. When you have a family member with a problem then you must pay for the treatment. I get that! However my premiums are higher because of it yet it is not included in coverage. That is all I am really saying. I will be burdened the rest of my life due to my kido being diagnosed with a certatin possible problem his whole life. To me it is hypocrysy that I pay more for something the health insurance companies won't pay for anyway! So where do I turn....no where!

As far as greener technologies. (sentence fragment) I want to be able to invest in the future not because of global warming which is a hoax, by the way, see LA's skyline. But mainly for cost cutting measures. Electric cars have been invented! However not put on the road. WHY? Hybrid's are more fuel efficient....is that so bad. yes we should drill here...I agree. I do very much like the Nuclear options. I don't want to cut out anything but give incentives for innovative companies seeking better ways to do things. Of course we cannot put a wind farm just anywhere. But I would rather my tax dollars go to companies --viable companies--to help produce some cost saving that would make our country less dependent on foreign sources.

As far as deficit spending. yes we must increase receipts to the federal reserve. Cutting taxes in order to spur consumer spending. yes I understand! Let's do it. It is a basic disagreement between Dems and Rep's. I think investing in better technologies and getting our workforce educated will spur this movement.

I am sorry I cannot be more clear on the subject of what makes sence makes sense. If you will not agree that healthcare is currently broke then I cannot sell you on a better system. If you believe that occupying other nations is the best defense of democracy then I cannot change your mind on foreign policy.

If you don't believe we could be headed for a climate crisis then I cannot convince you of green is better.

As far as taxes on the middle class I am against it. But where does the money need to come from? Since I have read that taxes are bad on the rich. Taxes are bad on the middle class. Where did we expect to pay for the largest deficit in history left us by the previous administration?

I will reiterate we had 8-10 years to grow the economy and it did not work. Good news. There is a banging economy the last 8 yrs in India. Also consortions from Dubai and Quatar are buying up real estate in New York and across the country as their economies have flourished.....yes they are down now! But at least they own some skyscrapers for when the ecomony rebounds.

Finally what makes a constitutional amendment....I don't know. I believe I was using sarcasm as you do need a minimun IQ to get.

[UNTflyer]

Electric cars have been invented! However not put on the road. WHY?

Because they suck.