What has your first loyalty?

[dogsplayinpoker]

Ok this isn't football but it kills time.

Question for the fraternity or sorority types on the board. We all have loyalty to our university, but where does your greater loyalty lie. With North Texas or with your fraternity? Obviously you could say both, but if it ever came down to a choice, which would you say has your heart first?

Me....I'll say my fraternity. Now I'm sure some non-greeks will call me sorry for that, but I wouldn't expect them to understand.

Edited June 18, 2005 by dogsplayinpoker

[emmitt01]

No question, North Texas.

I paid money for the college experience and found friends, not the other way around.

Disclaimer: This is called a joke...

[MeanGreenBuzz]

Its a tough choice because I love my chapter and I love the school I am at. Really their needs to be a both listing, but because I have been through so much with the guys in my chapter my fraternity gets my loyalty first, but NT is only minutely behind.

[Baby Arm!]

Without question. My fraternity.

[gksmith]

I was never in a Frat so of course UNT. I like basketball too.

[SUMG]

No offense, but I don't get that. That makes about as much to me as someone saying, "I love the Rotary Club more than I love America."

SUMG, who was proudly GDI

[stebo]

I put my fraternity - they have never screwed me over or lied to me.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

This post won't make any friends but when I was at NT the term "Frat-Rat" really fit.

One of them was having a Christmas Party in Dallas and set the hotel on fire... they were kicked off campus.

Another had an incident where some "brothers, several" went to a TA residence on Oak St. and threatened him (his life) and apparently stated they would be back and now it got real complicated, several shots were later fired and the results was the graduate TA shot a plain-clothes policeman when he thought it was the returning frat boys to beat up or do him in. The policeman was seriously hurt but lived over it. Nothing happened to the TA because he thought he was defending his life. . Good-by frat #2.

Another serious incident happened after a frat meeting when a bunch of them went to Oklahoma and came back loaded, two of them were Viet-Nam vets. The group went on a rampage about 1:00 AM, threw some people through some windows, beat up a couple of others, and finally wound up at the College Inn where I lived and broke in a room swung a bottle at the resident but hit the wall before hitting him in the face. It blinded him in one eye and the group were sentenced to jail or prison for quite some time... It made TV news in Dallas.......Good-by frat #3.

A couple more had GPAs resembling "Delta House" and they were removed as well. I think there was only 3 remaining active frats at the end of my senior year.

The Sororities did not seem to have the same problem. Frats in general had no respect then, they were viewed as rich drunks.

Both of sons later joined a frat when they were in college and their groups seemed much different and they got a lot out of being a member. Both joined at A&M and one son transfer to UNT later but did not care for the same organization in Denton and never became active

Edited June 20, 2005 by SCREAMING EAGLE-66

[GrayEagle]

In the early years after graduation I'd think that most would choose their fraternity. The associations were closer and it's a little like siblings vs. extended family.

But as the years roll on, and fraternity brothers scatter and there are fewer (fraternity) alumni activities, we tend to drift back to our alma mater. By then, most of the alums we know we'll become even better acquainted with because their interest doesn't wane as much and these friendships last also.

[SilverEagle]

In the early years after graduation I'd think that most would choose their fraternity.  The associations were closer and it's a little like siblings vs. extended family.

But as the years roll on, and fraternity brothers scatter and there are fewer (fraternity) alumni activities, we tend to drift back to our alma mater.  By then, most of the alums we know we'll become even better acquainted with because their interest doesn't wane as much and these friendships last also.

Jack, you are such a diplomat.

BTW were you in any organization while you were at NT?

Edited June 20, 2005 by SilverEagle

[grad88]

I was in honor fraternities only...alpha chi and psi chi.

When one reads the history of the fraternities and sororities and the way they functioned 100 years ago, it is nothing like today. I don't think I would want my son or daughter joining a modern day frat or sorority. It seems like the only thing they are there for now is to party...and for everyone to lose their virginity as soon as possible and to sleep with as many people as possible before finishing college.

I know that I am an old-schooler in a younger person's body, but someone set me straight...not trying to be sarcastic--just fill me in on the virtues of modern day frats. I honestly can not think of any.

[pollock]

It seems like the only thing they are there for now is to party...and for everyone to lose their virginity as soon as possible and to sleep with as many people as possible before finishing college.

"just fill me in on the virtues of modern day frats. "

I think you answered your own question, hehe....

[taynt7]

gotta love it

[SouthernMustang]

I think it really depends on the Greek culture at your university. At SMU, the fraternities and sororities are some of the cornerstones of the traditions at our school- and a lot of the Greek system is built around family legacy, school history, etc.

A lot of chapters at SMU get in trouble for being "too proud of being an SMU Greek" rather than being a "Proud member of XYZ Nationals." I know that was definitely the case for most chapters. Most have an open-communication line with the school and work well with the admin, but always had trouble dealing with their nationals ... esp. in regards to their nationals wanting the most fundraising dollars from our chapters b/c they were "from SMU and should donate more."

I'm loyal to both, but they kind of connect. I have all of my chapter bros' backs, and would do the same for many other chapters' members at certain campuses, but then there are some where I wouldn't talk to them if they stepped foot on campus b/c they're such tools. I really think for me, I'm more loyal to the SMU Greek system than I am to the national organization -- b/c I had friends in many of the different fraternities, and we all shared the same collegiate experience. Coming back to SMU, and going to SMU alum stuff, it usually revolves around fraternity alumni stuff -- and the most active alumni that give back and still go to all of the tailgates and games are former Greeks, so it's kind of a good combination of both where you don't really have to survive. I know that I'd be willing to give to SMU athletics, and I'd give $ to my fraternity CHAPTER, but if Nationals came calling? No way ... so I guess I don't know to answer the poll.

Just always remember while you're still in school, Be Fratty.

[eeally]

I would say UNT...However my fondest memories are at the old House. I remember once during pledgeship. It was during Dead Week. We had to report to the House at 6pm. We were told we had to take a picture with our pledge brothers in front of

1. The Astrodome

2. The Alamo

3. The Capitol

we had a blast. The bonding was outstanding, and friendships remain lifelong. I remember on that trip Shagman and Cole kissed for the first time. I think they are still together.

Then when we were running the place we would haze the young ones. Numerous beer runs, academic dishonesty, cow tipping on cool Friday nights. Ricks place, Dr. Smiths, Delta House basement smoke parties.

To my pledge class: Schmoo, Little Bear, Davis, Cole, PS1, Dirt Dobber, Shag, High man, Ha ha Charade UR, Billy Boy, Buzzer, I will always remeber you! Long live the FRAT....

(FRAT NAME WITHHELD TO PROTECT FROM CRIMINAL PROSICUTION)

[bigrobdsp]

I know that I am an old-schooler in a younger person's body, but someone set me straight...not trying to be sarcastic--just fill me in on the virtues of modern day frats. I honestly can not think of any.

I can honestly tell you that you are not in the business world. A fraternity is really a business internship. I dont think you can be adequatley prepared for the business world without being in one. as far as statistics go there has only been three presidents who were not in a fraternity (coincidentaly the three who didnt go to college) somthing like 85% of all senators and representatives were in a fraternity (I dont remember the exact stat but almost 100% of either democrat or republican were, the non fraternity memebers were almost all independant so you can insert joke here). also some large percentage of controlling officers of froture 500 companies were in a fraternity or sorority.

I know that none of this really addresses the question of what virtues they have, and that is because it is a really tough thing to quantify. you learn lessons in how to deal with all types of people succesfully. you learn what networking means and how to do it well. you learn how to handle it when your best freind is the root of a problem that you have to deal with. you learn that that guy from that house down the street that you are working on a project with may be smiling and shaking your hand now but he is trying to bed your girlfreind when you look away. and you learn how to deal with a boss (the school) that thinks you (the fraternity) are wortless and more of a nusance than anything despite the fact that greek alumni donate on average 1000% more money to their alma-mater than non-greeks. no there is not an extra zero there and that number is about right on.

there is a ton more I could type on this but I am taking an early retirement.

[SCREAMING EAGLE-66]

I can honestly tell you that you are not in the business world. A fraternity is really a business internship. I dont think you can be adequatley prepared for the business world without being in one. as far as statistics go there has only been three presidents who were not in a fraternity (coincidentaly the three who didnt go to college) somthing like 85% of all senators and representatives were in a fraternity (I dont remember the exact stat but almost 100% of either democrat or republican were, the non fraternity memebers were almost all independant so you can insert joke here). also some large percentage of controlling officers of froture 500 companies were in a fraternity or sorority.

I know that none of this really addresses the question of what virtues they have, and that is because it is a really tough thing to quantify. you learn lessons in how to deal with all types of people succesfully. you learn what networking means and how to do it well. you learn how to handle it when your best freind is the root of a problem that you have to deal with. you learn that that guy from that house down the street that you are working on a project with may be smiling and shaking your hand now but he is trying to bed your girlfreind when you look away. and you learn how to deal with a boss (the school) that thinks you (the fraternity) are wortless and more of a nusance than anything despite the fact that greek alumni donate on average 1000% more money to their alma-mater than non-greeks. no there is not an extra zero there and that number is about right on.

there is a ton more I could type on this but I am taking an early retirement.

[Baby Arm!]

It's interesting that most of the comments that discount fraternity loyalty are coming from those who were never in a fraternity to begin with????

There's old saying about from the outside you can't understand it, from the inside you can't explain it

I'm a Skull, I'll always be a Skull. End of story

[Stan R]

I put my University although I see no reason to need to pick one over the other.

[bigrobdsp]

I can honestly tell you that you are not in the business world. A fraternity is really a business internship. I dont think you can be adequatley prepared for the business world without being in one. as far as statistics go there has only been three presidents who were not in a fraternity (coincidentaly the three who didnt go to college) somthing like 85% of all senators and representatives were in a fraternity (I dont remember the exact stat but almost 100% of either democrat or republican were, the non fraternity memebers were almost all independant so you can insert joke here). also some large percentage of controlling officers of froture 500 companies were in a fraternity or sorority.

I know that none of this really addresses the question of what virtues they have, and that is because it is a really tough thing to quantify. you learn lessons in how to deal with all types of people succesfully. you learn what networking means and how to do it well. you learn how to handle it when your best freind is the root of a problem that you have to deal with. you learn that that guy from that house down the street that you are working on a project with may be smiling and shaking your hand now but he is trying to bed your girlfreind when you look away. and you learn how to deal with a boss (the school) that thinks you (the fraternity) are wortless and more of a nusance than anything despite the fact that greek alumni donate on average 1000% more money to their alma-mater than non-greeks. no there is not an extra zero there and that number is about right on.

there is a ton more I could type on this but I am taking an early retirement.

----That argument is seriously flawed. First, 10 Presidents did not attend college including Washington, the last one to not attend was Truman, plus there was three Military academy grads and there are no fraternities there.... and some of those who did attend college did not join fraternities... the number has to exceed 15, maybe 20, presidents. Most Presidents come from wealthy families ( Bush, Bush, Roosevelt, Roosevelt, Kennedy, Wilson, Hoover, Taft, even the Carter and Johnson families in this century were far from poor). Most wealthy college students join fraternities therefore it is likely a presidental candidate would have been a member of a fraternity. Not too many presidents have had to work their way through college, Reagan and Nixon maybe. Clinton had scholarship money and even became a Rhodes scholar .

---It is likely that fraternity people do contribute more money.....again the wealthy almost always join fraternities and no doubt wealthy contribute more. ....This is not saying every fraternity member is rich however, but most have above average I suspect.

---An article came out this week about the U.S. Senators being a millionairs club, almost all were. Almost all of them come from families way average in wealth and did not have just the money they earned themselves. The frat connection didn't elect them, access to money and people with money did.

---Fraternity membership may be some advantage to business majors but for the others it is not much help. In the same vane, most reports claim a Ivy-League degree may be worth the money it costs but only if if one plans on working in/near Wall Street ( good connections with money people) but for most professions it doesn't give you much advantage especially after getting employed.

--- Bill Clements (very wealthy frat member) has contributed much more to SMU than I ( a not-so-poor non-frat member) have contributed to NT. .....But then again his efforts, actions, money, and comments, earned SMU the death penalty..... nice guy!!

[stebo]

My new (been "bacl" with the company since February) had an intense training schedule. It was likened to pledgeship. If I had not already been through the head games and performed them myself; I would have taken much of it very personal. In fact, it is a weeding out process to see who really wants to be there/be a part of the Brinker family. We lost about 30% of our incoming class because they could never get past the "testing" phase. All of those were non-fraternity college grads. What being in a fraternity does is allow you to set a very tough goal, see it through, and be rewarded at the end of it. I went through school while opening a business, being in a fraternity, being an officer in the Interfraternity Council, being an elected member SA (now called SGA), and even managed to open & run a succesful business along the way. I will argue until the day I die that it was the virtues and work ethic instilled by my fraternity that gave me the tools and cofidence to accomlish so much at such a young age. Coincidentally, I give that same credit to similar organizations (such as Talons) that have similar set-ups for joining... they have the same "testing" phase for new members and there are rewards once the pledge process is over.

Do kids in Greek/student orgs "hook up" with each other and drink alcohol? Sure they do. But so do the non-Greeks. It is just pointed out a lot more when the person doing it is wearing a Greek letter or Talons' shirt. There are some bad apple fraternities out there. But I think yuo will find that the majority of them were founded on the virtues of integrity. Those virtues carry you through your whole adult life. When I finally pass away; I know it will be my brothers of Sigma Tau Gamma that lay my body to rest and comfort my wife if need be. I trust them with my heart and soul.

[Stan R]

Do kids in Greek/student orgs "hook up" with each other and drink alcohol?  Sure they do.  But so do the non-Greeks.

BINGO.

[eeally]

If it were not for the Greeks on campus you could cut down the attendance by 1/3. When I was in we were "required to go to the games".

[SouthernMustang]

BINGO.

Living in the fraternity house was quieter than living in the freshman dorm. Yah, fraternity houses can get crowded on weekends sometimes -- but normally, people in the house go out to bars or have rented-out parties with another fraternity or sorority someplace in Dallas. Unless it is cleared through the school for an official event, rarely do chapters have 100's of people over to their house.

Now living in the dorms on the other hand (excuse me, Residence Halls in SMU's case), it was worse... stuff happened every night of the week. Now I had a blast in both places, but several of the kids that created most of the problems in the dorms weren't in Greek houses at SMU (shocking, I know) -- in fact, they left after a semester or year. To even be eligible to go through rush, you have to have a 2.25 GPA and no judicial violations. Also, the average male GPA at SMU was around a 2.8 ... while the all-frat average was like a 3.1 or so.

And the whole "hooking up" thing, who doesn't hook up in college ... I would think non-sorority girls (they don't exist in the attractive form at SMU) would be easier to hook up with b/c they don't have all the rules, judicial standards, etc. that their organization is holding them to.

I don't know, maybe it's different at UNT (but many of the posters here cause me not to think so) but usually Greeks are the ones that are student body presidents, on student senate, involved in all of the orientation processes/welcome committees, homecoming, athletic events, etc. And the faces of the student body for university. But I might be naive coming from an Ole Miss family, and having gone to SMU.

[stebo]

Living in the fraternity house was quieter than living in the freshman dorm. Yah, fraternity houses can get crowded on weekends sometimes -- but normally, people in the house go out to bars or have rented-out parties with another fraternity or sorority someplace in Dallas. Unless it is cleared through the school for an official event, rarely do chapters have 100's of people over to their house.

Now living in the dorms on the other hand (excuse me, Residence Halls in SMU's case), it was worse... stuff happened every night of the week. Now I had a blast in both places, but several of the kids that created most of the problems in the dorms weren't in Greek houses at SMU (shocking, I know) -- in fact, they left after a semester or year. To even be eligible to go through rush, you have to have a 2.25 GPA and no judicial violations. Also, the average male GPA at SMU was around a 2.8 ... while the all-frat average was like a 3.1 or so.

And the whole "hooking up" thing, who doesn't hook up in college ... I would think non-sorority girls (they don't exist in the attractive form at SMU) would be easier to hook up with b/c they don't have all the rules, judicial standards, etc. that their organization is holding them to.

I don't know, maybe it's different at UNT (but many of the posters here cause me not to think so) but usually Greeks are the ones that are student body presidents, on student senate, involved in all of the orientation processes/welcome committees, homecoming, athletic events, etc. And the faces of the student body for university. But I might be naive coming from an Ole Miss family, and having gone to SMU.

It is no different Southern Mustang. I served on all of those organizations and I would say that 90% of the leaders and members were Greek. Either a kid wants to have the full college experience or they don't; it is that simple. Some people commute and do not have the time or money to be as involved as they would like to be - but fr the most part, organizations will work with those people for dues/meetings exemptions. Heck, we had 3 football players in my fraternity including big old team captain Shane MacLaughlin. We worked around his schedule and he was able to add yet another set of experiences to his lifetime of memories made at North Texas.