Sun Belt Baseball Attendance

[ADLER]

Thanks to CajunT for posting this on the Sun Belt board:

Louisiana leads the way for Sun Belt at #18 in the NCAA's College Baseball Attendance.

2011 Division 1 College Baseball Attendance Report

Looking at the list, especially the popularity of college baseball in Texas, and including the very respectable attendance figures from smaller Sun Belt schools, indicates that baseball may very well be a financially viable program at North Texas.

[Harry]

Thanks to CajunT for posting this on the Sun Belt board:

Looking at the list, especially the popularity of college baseball in Texas, and including the very respectable attendance figures from smaller Sun Belt schools, indicates that baseball may very well be a financially viable program at North Texas.

My question on this is doesn't title 9 come into play. The reason I wonder is why wouldn't SMU start a baseball program? I mean money less an issue for them than it is for us no?

[Mean Green 93-98]

My question on this is doesn't title 9 come into play. The reason I wonder is why wouldn't SMU start a baseball program? I mean money less an issue for them than it is for us no?

Why would Title IX be a factor for us? Unless I count wrong, we currently have a 4 more women's sports than men's sports.

[KRAM1]

Thanks to CajunT for posting this on the Sun Belt board:

Looking at the list, especially the popularity of college baseball in Texas, and including the very respectable attendance figures from smaller Sun Belt schools, indicates that baseball may very well be a financially viable program at North Texas.

Just asking....what makes you think attendance in the 2-3,000 range would make for a "financially viable" program at UNT? Basketball at UNT averages around 3500 and it is not funding itself. Is basketball any more expensive than baseball? Just asking...not making a statement here. Do baseball players get "full" scholarships like football and basketball players or can they be split into smaller and smaller pieces...some claiming to be on scholarship while only receiving book money in the "lesser sports"? If scholarship costs are way below basketball then maybe attendance at 2-3000 would make it work...as long as ticket prices were appropriate. But, how many of the attendees at these school's games are actually "paid" attendees?

I just don't know enough about the economics of college baseball, but, hopefully, someone here does and can shed some light on the subject.

GO MEAN GREEN!

[buff64]

Why would Title IX be a factor for us? Unless I count wrong, we currently have a 4 more women's sports than men's sports.

It's not only the number of sports it is the number of scholarships. I think the D1 baseball is 9, but they may be broken up in 1/2 or whatever. In most cases only a pitcher or two would have a full ride.

Edited June 16, 2011 by buff64

[GrayEagle]

My question on this is doesn't title 9 come into play. The reason I wonder is why wouldn't SMU start a baseball program? I mean money less an issue for them than it is for us no?

We are in good standing with Title IX and baseball only allows something like 13 scholarships so it wouldn't tilt the balance very much. As to SMU, I believe that SMU gave up baseball primarily because they needed the room that the stadium occupied for other purposes. That, and to make them closer to Title IX compliance.

[oldguystudent]

UNTFlyer has posted numerous times that Title IX is not an issue in forming a baseball team. Something about years and years and years of uber compliance leading up to it.

D1 Baseball allows for 11.7 scholarships with maximum roster at 35 and each player receiving at least a 25% scholarship.

Basketball allows 13 scholarships.

The going rate for a Sunbelt Conference baseball coach is about $150,000.

The going rate for a Sunbelt Basketball coach appears to range $150,000-$335,000.

Baseball in TX would have at least 28 home games X 3,000 fans = 84,000

Basketball at UNT has approximately 15 home games X 3,500 fans = 52,500

The hole in this theory is that you're probably looking at closer to 1,000 per game for a good long while. It takes winning over a period of years to start getting 3,000 a game.

[KRAM1]

UNTFlyer has posted numerous times that Title IX is not an issue in forming a baseball team. Something about years and years and years of uber compliance leading up to it.

D1 Baseball allows for 11.7 scholarships with maximum roster at 35 and each player receiving at least a 25% scholarship.

Basketball allows 13 scholarships.

The going rate for a Sunbelt Conference baseball coach is about $150,000.

The going rate for a Sunbelt Basketball coach appears to range $150,000-$335,000.

Baseball in TX would have at least 28 home games X 3,000 fans = 84,000

Basketball at UNT has approximately 15 home games X 3,500 fans = 52,500

The hole in this theory is that you're probably looking at closer to 1,000 per game for a good long while. It takes winning over a period of years to start getting 3,000 a game.

Wouldn't having more games and a bigger roster (think travel costs) add to the expense as well? I don't think baseball will break-even much less make money at UNT, but neither do many of the other sports...well, any at UNT at this point. Probably not a reason to keep from starting up baseball at UNT. I just think the thought that it would be a money maker for UNT (or any other university for that matter) is a bit misguided. What UNT needs is a "deep pockets" guy who would like to see baseball started to step up with a $1,000,000 or so and get it going. Don't laugh, it is very possible that will all the positive things going on at UNT these days...both in athletics and in academics...that someone may well step up. As you may recall...a $1,000,000 donor stepped up just this year for the athletic dept. These type of folks are definitely out there, and several are UNT Alums. They just need to be "awakened" to all that is awesome at UNT these days.

I can tell you this much, if I ever have a "long lost rich uncle/aunt" die, that guy will be me...well, a winning lottery number wouldn't hurt either. Alas, I am just a working stiff without any rich family...but, these folks are "out there". And, for the first time in a long time, UNT is doing a much better job of finding them and bringing them home to UNT.

GO MEAN GREEN!

[oldguystudent]

Kram, you're totally right on with everything you say. I'm not going to bother looking this up, but I think the annual cost of running a decent D1 program, based on the money CWS participant Cal had to raise to stay afloat, is in the $700,000-$800,000 range. The travel costs aren't exorbitantly more because the number of trips is roughly the same. Mid-week away games are usually driving distance, and weekend trips are like a Thursday/Saturday trip in basketball except three days in one destination.

I amused by some posters who seem to think that until the football team is hoisting the BCS trophy that a baseball program would take away from football resources. Baseball won't be profitable, or even self sustaining, but I think it is a genuine possibility that it gets itself perpetually endowed.

[ADLER]

Just a few ideas, possibly bordering on absurd, so don't go saying that I am suggesting anything or pushing for something.

Is Track & Field necessary for conference memberships? SMU cut theirs prior to joining CUSA.

Other than at a few select top national programs, do any spectators at all pay to watch Track & Field?

If the answer is no for these questions , which it is for both, then why not eventually cancel the program for something that the university community has an interest in supporting?

Like Octopus Inc in the movie Fierce Creatures, stop running some kind of humanitarian mission and get rid of everything that the people will not pay to see.

Use those scholarships for baseball, hockey, mens soccer and any other sport that fans (other than Mom, Dad & their little Suzy Rottencrotch) will want to support.

A large budget scholarship sport doesn't really have a purpose if nobody has an interest in watching it. Nonessential non-spectator sports should compete only on the club level.

Keep mens golf because of the team history and tennis because the investment in facilities has already been made, but evaluate the worth of every other program.

OK, please tell me how I'm wrong. Fire away........

Edited June 18, 2011 by ADLER

[foutsrouts]

We are in good standing with Title IX and baseball only allows something like 13 scholarships so it wouldn't tilt the balance very much. As to SMU, I believe that SMU gave up baseball primarily because they needed the room that the stadium occupied for other purposes. That, and to make them closer to Title IX compliance.

I don't remember smu's on campus stadium, but I definitely remember their playing in Reverchon Park for a few years before they hung up the cleats. I never saw more than a couple of dozen fans at those games. Baseball attendance in general has certainly changed a lot since those days, and with all the talent in the area, I suspect we would be pretty successful sooner rather than later. Sure hope it becomes a high priority issue once we get the FB stadium up and running.

[ADLER]

Just a few ideas, possibly bordering on absurd, so don't go saying that I am suggesting anything or pushing for something.

Is Track & Field necessary for conference memberships? SMU cut theirs prior to joining CUSA.

Other than at a few select top national programs, do any spectators at all pay to watch Track & Field?

If the answer is no for these questions , which it is for both, then why not eventually cancel the program for something that the university community has an interest in supporting?

Like Octopus Inc in the movie Fierce Creatures, stop running some kind of humanitarian mission and get rid of everything that the people will not pay to see.

Use those scholarships for baseball, hockey, mens soccer and any other sport that fans (other than Mom, Dad & their little Suzy Rottencrotch) will want to support.

A large budget scholarship sport doesn't really have a purpose if nobody has an interest in watching it. Nonessential non-spectator sports should compete only on the club level.

Keep mens golf because of the team history and tennis because the investment in facilities has already been made, but evaluate the worth of every other program.

OK, please tell me how I'm wrong. Fire away........

I posted this a while back really expecting some reaction from people that thought it was ridiculous to consider cancelling non-spectator sports to enable North Texas to add potentially revenue generating sports. Honestly, I was half joking with the suggestion, but then Brett Vito posted this on the DRC Mean Green Blog

Is it possible that track could be forfeited to make room for baseball.

We know that the current track facility, Fouts Stadium, has an eventual date with the wrecking ball. Is it possible, or even likely, that a baseball stadium will be built before a new track complex?

[GrandGreen]

Actually there are a few people who rather have track than baseball. Secondly, as been pointed out;; men's track really counts as 3 sports Men's outdoor track, men's indoor track and men's cross country. So cutting track and adding baseball would leave NT two sports short of the mandatory 16. Adding two more sports to take the place of men's track would not be cost effective or wise.

Funding baseball should not be that big a deal other than building a stadium. Most Belt Universities field teams and most of them are very good. RV has already stated he doesn't think NT would have to have an offsetting woman's sport. I would like NT to have baseball, but I am not for stressing NT's finances anymore than they are now. NT appears to be getting their so called non-revenue sports in much better shape and if they can continue to do that and not drain football or basketball, baseball would be great. The facts are that everyone loses money on baseball and although it fills a sports void even at very successful programs it only draws a couple of thousand. NT will eventually add baseball but I'm hoping they do it in a way that a competitive program can be build without sacrificing other sports.

[GrayEagle]

Guys, don't forget that we have to have 14 sports for the Division I level. If you take away track & field then you're eliminating 6 of those sports. Don't take away those sports! Not only do we have great history in track & field but they're not that expensive. Some of the big Relays often pay enough to cover transportation costs.