Dickey vs. The SBC

[VideoEagle]

Since I'm not a "stat" guy, here's a question.

Win or lose, does this game go on Dickey's official record as the head coach at NT?

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Unless someone else is named “head coach” by Saturday night, yes.

[Guest GrayEagleOne]

Wins against 1A teams who ended the year with winning records

2005 - None

2004 - None

2003 - None (Troy ended at 6-6)

2002 - 1 - NMSU 7-5 (CINCINNATI finished @ 7-7)

2001 - 1 - MTSU 8-3

2000 - NONE

1999 - 2 Tech @ 6-5 and Boise @ 10-3

1998 - 2 Boise @ 6-5 and Nevada @ 6-5

1997 - 1 - Tech @ 6-5  (Utah State ended @ 6-6)

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Matt Simon was the coach in 1997.

[CaribbeanGreen]

REVISED

If you were a student in much of the 70's with Mean Green football schedules that included wins and closer-played-games you would not be on this forum trying to justify mediocrity and what we've had for much of the last quarter century. 

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In the 70's, (70-79), NT averaged exactly 5 wins per season, with a 1-win season and 2 3-win seasons.

In the 00's, NT thusfar has averaged 5.66 wins per season, with a 2-win season.

[PlummMeanGreen]

In the 70's, (70-79), NT averaged exactly 5 wins per season, with a 1-win season and 2 3-win seasons.

In the 00's, NT thusfar has averaged 5.66 wins per season, with a 2-win season.

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My bad..........I should have been more specific about "much of the 70's" but CB, I would bet you knew which part of the 1970's I was talking about. You know, that part of NT football history your group would sometimes like to do a bit of revisionist history to support 4 bowl games that didn't do what 4 bowl game appearance should have done for any 1-A football program (except maybe to get what any aspring and progressive NCAA D1-A football program would have today and that an Athletic Center).

For those who are still (for whatever reason) hanging in there with a DD Ball type football program with NCAA D1-A football statistics that has Mean Green football annually ranked somewhere between #90 thru #117; anyway, just what is the hook that has you and a few wanting to hang onto all this, ie, business as usual?

CarribeanGreen, what is it about UNT playing scavenger fish with the rest of the SBC and toward the bottom of NCAA D1-A that has you supporting this as to even post about it as if what we have going on in Denton is some kind of "wave of the future" with how football programs should be run?

Tell all of us from the Hayden Fry era and even B4 a a few years after (which is the part of the 70's that I guess you needed specified although I'd wager you would have known that B4 you "conveniently" threw in Rod Rusts 1 "W" football season record of 1972 to help you get your needed number that would assist you in supporting present mediocrity); anyway, please do specify in detail what it is that the rest of us should be just as excited about (as you obviously are) with a football program now in its 2'nd year of losing which suggests to all that our football program has impressed few (recruits?) outside Denton and a dwindling number on GMG.com even during 4 bowl years (with not "ONE" Top 25 ranking during any of those 4 bowl years appearances to put it bluntly)?

CG, many of us would honestly be open to hear each of your detailed and specified reasons as to why we should be as excited about all this as you seem to be (with all your "pro-DD Ball style football" posts) and we might even be more open-minded toward the reason(s) you would list than you seem to be toward the ones we've listed that more than supports our argument with all this (and it would at any other NCAA D1-A outposts for what its worth) OK..............give us your list of why we should continue with all this now, we're all ears.

IN CLOSING TO CB: There are many, many more who feel a change for our football program's direction is not only expected, but for the purpose for anyone having any semblance of a chance to market the 2007 Mean Green football season it is all but expected from whoever at UNT who needs to be resposible for pulling the trigger to get this started.

TO THE NEW UNT PRESIDENT:

CLEAN HOUSE! WE NEED NEW FACES & NEW IDEAS! WHAT WE'VE BEEN DOING HAS STILL ONLY CAUGHT THE IMAGINATION AND ATTENTION OF 15K FANS PER HOME GAME AVERAGES THE LAST 9 YEARS...MS. PRESIDENT, 15K IS THE "MINIMUM AVERAGE" FOR UNT TO STAY IN NCAA D1-A:(

AND GET RID OF THE BULLSHIPPERS WHO USE EVERY EXCUSE IN THE BOOK FOR HAVING NOT DONE THEIR JOBS AND...........

..............THOSE WHO HAVE CONNED A WHOLE BUNCH OF OUR BEST & MOST SINCERE ALUMS INTO BUYING INTO (what is now) EVEN SUN BELT CONFERENCE MEDIOCRITY!

..................................

Madam UNT President: Making decisions to rid ourselves of those who have this program sucking wind in almost every varsity sport is not rocket science and really shouldn't be a very difficult decison if you'd check out all varsity media guides and see for yourself all the mutli-year W/L records listed in black and white in those media guides).

In the real business world, such personnel changes are made every day, Madam President, and its usually made on one's production (or lack thereof); but we also know this would be nothing new for you to hear. Count the cost (not just for today) but for the next few years with UNT athletics and just do the right thing for the majority of us NT Exes who just expect more, have seen more and know we can do more again in the near future. The ball (so to speak) is in your hands, Madam President.

Sincerely

James G. Plummer, II

UNT Class of 1976

Proud 6'th Generation Texan

...............................

RED INK! To you who keep throwing your good money after bad, what is keeping your hardy handful from causing a small riot with UNT officials over what some people are getting well paid to do as they annually keep most our varsity sports programs toward the bottom of NCAA D1-A)? ? ? ?

Edited October 19, 2006 by PlummMeanGreen

[CaribbeanGreen]

PMG -

I've never said that we are "the wave of the future" or that this regime is leading us to the top 25 or even that change might not be the best thing. I just get frustrated when our recent success gets minimized to support an agenda. NT has, frankly, a pretty lousy history in football and had had very little to crow about at any point. Sure, we have our legends and our history and we SHOULD hang on to that and respect that. But to say that we just don't have the vision or ability or even DESIRE to get to these "oh so lofty" levels we were at 30+ years ago (which, frankly, we were hardly ever that lofty) does a disservice to the players, coaches, students, and administration that achieved four straight conference championships over a four year span -- Which, in MY humble opinion only, is the unquestioned most successful time (over a multiple season span) in MG football history.

Again, I think you're great, PMG - I can't wait for you to get back on board and in the stadium, and hope that your visions of Top-25 football are someday fulfilled. I just think we did something pretty darn great those four years (two national rushing champions, longest conference winning streak in the country, bowl win over CUSA champ), especially by NT standards. Things that i could not have possibly DREAMED of during the Helwig days. Maybe I enjoyed it too much.

I'm not saying that absolves DD & Co. for the present state of affairs or into the future - I know we're struggling now, I've never said I'd necessarily be against change at this point. Honestly, one of the biggest things that makes me lean to the side of KEEPING DD is the fact that I have no confidence in what we would get being any better, and I don't believe in change for the sake of change. Anyway, all I'm talking about is the run we had - not arguing that we shouldn't have done more with it, shouldn't be farther along now, etc. I'm not an apologist, I'm not a blind DD supporter -- I just can't stand seeing our recent run minimized in any way, even against out own history.

Hope you watch the game this weekend - maybe we can pull a rabbit out of the hat w/o any expectations to win this time... GMG!

[shaft]

Dear UNT Fanbase,

IT'S TIME TO CLEAN HOUSE. We have too many blowhards on this board who think they know something about college football, grown men with a sick, sick infatuation with young college atheletes, and people with very more judgement. We need a new fan base. One that understand stats, and how stadium financing works. Fans that don't throw up strawman arguments like attendence in thread about win-loss records. Fans that don't rant and rave about pre-historic coaches from the 70's. Fans that understand being in the top 25 takes more than just wishing. Fans that understand the change this program has gone through and the growth process that is necessary to get us to our goal. And fans that accept the University determines the goal.

John Shaft

"One Bad Mother"

Class of his own.

[PlummMeanGreen]

Dear UNT Fanbase,

  IT'S TIME TO CLEAN HOUSE.  We have too many blowhards on this board who think they know something about college football,  grown men with a sick, sick infatuation with young college atheletes, and people with very more judgement.  We need a new fan base.  One that understand stats, and how stadium financing works.  Fans that don't throw up strawman arguments like attendence in thread about win-loss records.  Fans that don't rant and rave about pre-historic coaches from the 70's.  Fans that understand being in the top 25 takes more than just wishing.  Fans that understand the change this program has gone through and the growth process that is necessary to get us to our goal.  And fans that accept the University determines the goal.

John Shaft

"One Bad Mother" 

Class of his own.

←

REVISED JUST FOR THE SHAFT'STER!

First of all, its amazing that there would be any semblance of debate for the desire from many posters to have a better football program that any UNT football media guide would tell all we are simply not getting at the University of North Texas. It's in the books, folks, in plain o' black and white for all to read.

AND.........shaft, O ye who would support the perseverance of SBC/Bottom 10 football at UNT: I'd rather have a pre-historic win over the University of Tennessee than a modern day loss to Middle Tennesse State University, and come on now, shaft, in your heart of hearts, uh, wouldn't you, too? Also, it only took that basketball school in El Paso 2 years under their high profile hire of a coach to get the Miners in the Top 25! What do we have at UNT-Denton, a 25 year plan to get the Mean Green in the Top 25? :blink:

Shaft, speaking of blowhards? You seem to do some of your own blowing hard with all your consistent stances and posts that supports a less than mediocre athletic program at UNT. A UNT athleitc program that has "ONE" varsity coach with a few years on campus over .500 suggests we are less than perfect, now doesn't it? And for one who says he's one bad mother you sure don't fit the demographic of a large majority of male Texans most of whom have far more expectation for their alma mater's football programs than you and a shrinking number on this forum seem to. For certain, though, you really do have an appropriate name which best describes what long time (several decades plus) fans of Mean Green athletics have been getting for most of the last 9 years, and truth be known, for almost a quarter a century now.

.................................................................

FWIW, we are fartin' in the wind with this present athletic program and anyone who can say John Hayden Fry 3X's in a row while clicking their Nocona ropers 3X's at the same time without stuttering would tell you the same damn thing.

.................................................................

But you really do like your DD Ball type football, shaft? If so, then you'd almost have to be DD's long lost cousin or just maybe you have drinking buddies in the athletic department that you would support with what any UNT media guide suggests are less than mediocre efforts at best, right? OR............just maybe you're one of those that our NCAA Top 10 tailgating program is all you really need on Game Day while a poorly coached college football team and what has become annual "not enough volume of D1-A talent" recruiting hauls comes in 2'nd place to all the Top 10 tailgating?

Also, shaft, with what you obviously think is a legitimate "got it going on" college football program in Denton, explain why in the hell there are (on an annual basis) an average of 15,000 empty seats of fans per home game whose non-presence should really be a rather strong statement to leaders at UNT; that is, those 15,000 empty seats being a most subtle way (even in absentia) for those seats to "loudly" tell UNT leaders that even 4 bowl trips with DD Ball didn't cause them to buy into that style of a college football program or (in general) what this present group of athletic employees are selling as a whole. To quote one out of that group: "Did You All Like That?"

And many of this group who will never get higher profile jobs than North Texas because potential employers at any other higher profile NCAA D1-A schools just may not feel the same about UNT athletics as your posts, shaft, suggest you feel. NOTE: You think such potential employers after just one look at each of our varsity sports media guides which would show each of those program's overall records over the last several years................AND with only one of those varsity sports programs at UNT having a coach with an above .500 record in W/L's? Might all that just be a real deal killer for those trying for their escape out of Denton to go to most any NCAA affiliated school?

Unfortunately, it apparently won't be merely a few UNT leaders who assist in helping keep this thing in Denton, Texas, America, Small Time and going nowhere fast from reading various posts of those who would say they know their college football and then their having the unadulterated gonads to even suggest that we are getting a good football program at............... NORTH TEXAS? Insert a Norm Hitzges type giggle with that! Wouldn't hurt for those of you who I believe to be part of the Silent Majority with this subject at to start voicing your concerns on all this, too. I know many out there now who will not give one yankee dime to UNT until the Barnum and Baily gang are long gone and they themselves................ancient history.

Yet doesn't it just make all the sense in the world that it would be UNT located in one of the Fortune 500 meccas and populations centers of the entire USA that would hear that Road Runner "beep beep" sound with a school like Troy U (not located in a Fortune 500 mecca) to dance circles around UNT in raising monies for their new stadium while we sit around with our fingers up our nostrils talking about a new stadium we will someday have in the sweet by and by in our glorious future? And which school between ours and Troy U seems to have the most momentum on their side now (and that for a school not too many years removed from an NCAA D1-AA classification)? A Troy U momentum which includes a new stadium of which the Trojans opened on an ESPN national telecast with a win over a #19 ranked Missouri Tigers? Also, a Troy U football program who (at least) can play the Big Boys close some of the time. At UNT for the last few years, we can count on not playing the Big Boys close any time we tee it up.

So come on shaft................ don't hide it from us any longer, do divulge to us all who you must be related to in the UNT athletic department or who it is from athletics that is your good beer drinking bud', OK? Why? Because you'd have to be influenced by one of the above to suggest what we are getting at UNT is worthy of any semlbance of continuance.

Edited October 20, 2006 by PlummMeanGreen

[CMJ]

I love how Troy always gets thrown around as a school that has passed us, since they have yet to win a conference title. The "only averaging 15K argument speaks volumes" gets old too, considering when I was a student in the late 90's we were lucky to get 15K for Homecoming.

Hell last year we increased our attendance average with a 2-9 team. And it's possible we may increase it again this season.

[LoveMG]

Dear UNT Fanbase,

  IT'S TIME TO CLEAN HOUSE.

←

take your toys and go home.

[PlummMeanGreen]

PMG -

I've never said that we are "the wave of the future" or that this regime is leading us to the top 25 or even that change might not be the best thing. I just get frustrated when our recent success gets minimized to support an agenda. NT has, frankly, a pretty lousy history in football and had had very little to crow about at any point. Sure, we have our legends and our history and we SHOULD hang on to that and respect that. But to say that we just don't have the vision or ability or even DESIRE to get to these "oh so lofty" levels we were at 30+ years ago (which, frankly, we were hardly ever that lofty) does a disservice to the players, coaches, students, and administration that achieved four straight conference championships over a four year span -- Which, in MY humble opinion only, is the unquestioned most successful time (over a multiple season span) in MG football history.

Again, I think you're great, PMG - I can't wait for you to get back on board and in the stadium, and hope that your visions of Top-25 football are someday fulfilled. I just think we did something pretty darn great those four years (two national rushing champions, longest conference winning streak in the country, bowl win over CUSA champ), especially by NT standards. Things that i could not have possibly DREAMED of during the Helwig days. Maybe I enjoyed it too much.

I'm not saying that absolves DD & Co. for the present state of affairs or into the future - I know we're struggling now, I've never said I'd necessarily be against change at this point. Honestly, one of the biggest things that makes me lean to the side of KEEPING DD is the fact that I have no confidence in what we would get being any better, and I don't believe in change for the sake of change. Anyway, all I'm talking about is the run we had - not arguing that we shouldn't have done more with it, shouldn't be farther along now, etc. I'm not an apologist, I'm not a blind DD supporter -- I just can't stand seeing our recent run minimized in any way, even against out own history.

Hope you watch the game this weekend - maybe we can pull a rabbit out of the hat w/o any expectations to win this time... GMG!

←

Fair enough, CaribbeanGreen...

You have to understand that we Baby Boomers (and older) are at the "take your time, but hurry up" stage of our lives.

[UNTFan23]

Dear UNT Fanbase,

  IT'S TIME TO CLEAN HOUSE.  We have too many blowhards on this board who think they know something about college football,  grown men with a sick, sick infatuation with young college atheletes, and people with very more judgement.  We need a new fan base.  One that understand stats, and how stadium financing works.  Fans that don't throw up strawman arguments like attendence in thread about win-loss records.  Fans that don't rant and rave about pre-historic coaches from the 70's.  Fans that understand being in the top 25 takes more than just wishing.  Fans that understand the change this program has gone through and the growth process that is necessary to get us to our goal.  And fans that accept the University determines the goal.

John Shaft

"One Bad Mother" 

Class of his own.

←

When in doubt, bash the fans.

[UNTFan23]

I love how Troy always gets thrown around as a school that has passed us, since they have yet to win a conference title.  The "only averaging 15K argument speaks volumes" gets old too, considering when I was a student in the late 90's we were lucky to get 15K for Homecoming.

Hell last year we increased our attendance average with a 2-9 team.  And it's possible we may increase it again this season.

←

Homecoming attendence

2005 - 19,632 (Home game #4)

2006 - 15,123 (Home game #3)

I'd hold out on whether we'll see an increase this season or not. We've barely surpassed what we had last year. Now that homecoming has come and gone, what real reason do fair weather fans have to attend home games for the remainder of the season?

2006

1-25,231

2-16,986

3-15,123 (HC)

57,340

2005

1-23,112

2-17,644

3-14,153*

54,909

*--*--*--*--*--*--*

4-19,632 (HC)

5-7,691

* 3 week lapse between home games

[chrisfisher]

I think these numbers point out just how important our OOC games are. Home wins (we won first home games in 05/06) are simply NOT good enough. How else would you explained a 6,000 - 9,000 drop in fans between opening home WINS and the next home game? Obviously, if they only paid attention to home (or SBC) games, they'd show up because all they know is that we won last time they came out. It appears that a large number of folks see us getting hammered in many OOC games and don't bother to show up for home games no matter how well the Mean Green might have played the last time they watched them.

[CaribbeanGreen]

Fair enough, CaribbeanGreen...

You have to understand that we Baby Boomers (and older) are at the "take your time, but hurry up" stage of our lives.

←

Fair enough right back at ya. Can't say I wouldn't be right there with ya were I in your shoes. Hang in there, brother -- we're all Green at the end of the day.

GMG!!

[FirefightnRick]

Dear UNT Fanbase,

  IT'S TIME TO CLEAN HOUSE.  We have too many blowhards on this board who think they know something about college football,  grown men with a sick, sick infatuation with young college atheletes, and people with very more judgement.  We need a new fan base.  One that understand stats, and how stadium financing works.  Fans that don't throw up strawman arguments like attendence in thread about win-loss records.  Fans that don't rant and rave about pre-historic coaches from the 70's.  Fans that understand being in the top 25 takes more than just wishing.  Fans that understand the change this program has gone through and the growth process that is necessary to get us to our goal.  And fans that accept the University determines the goal.

←

Post of the year for the most contradictions in one paragraph.

Rick

[shaft]

In response I just like to say...

Yawn.

Why can't any of you freaks look at the program objectively?

D1 wins, Conference wins, elite wins. You want to factor in bad losses, and attendence go head. Add in draft picks and you the exact way College Football News does their 3 year rankings they publish every spring.

Why is it so hard for some of you to accept the fact that RV and DD have been good for the program. As Dickey's "buick" style offense outlived its usefulness? Maybe. The truth is Dickey and his offense work (for the most part) and its works for the type of program we have. [This is where someone mindlessly chimes in about having a positive attitude will change what conference we play.] D1 football is hard, and everyone on this board takes that for granite. This isn't a play station game, teams have to rebuild and fight to get a head.

But hey what do I know, I just a troll.

[UNTBill]

In response I just like to say...

Yawn. 

Why can't any of you freaks look at the program objectively?

D1 wins, Conference wins, elite wins.  You want to factor in bad losses, and attendence go head.  Add in draft picks and you the exact way College Football News does their 3 year rankings they publish every spring.

Why is it so hard for some of you to accept the fact that RV and DD have been good for the program.  As Dickey's "buick" style offense outlived its usefulness?  Maybe.  The truth is Dickey and his offense work (for the most part) and its works for the type of program we have.  [This is where someone mindlessly chimes in about having a positive attitude will change what conference we play.]  D1 football is hard, and everyone on this board takes that for granite.  This isn't a play station game, teams have to rebuild and fight to get a head.

But hey what do I know, I just a troll.

←

I would venture a guess and say, you never excelled in english class or maybe it's just bad typing skills. It could be that I'm to bame. I, just, never did understand ebonics.

Edited October 20, 2006 by UNTBill

[shaft]

I would venture a guess and say, you never excelled in english class or maybe it's just bad typing skills.  It could be that I'm to bame.  I, just, never did understand ebonics.

←

Sorry, I only went to a crappy State School for both my degrees.

[PlummMeanGreen]

In response I just like to say...

Yawn. 

Why can't any of you freaks look at the program objectively?

D1 wins, Conference wins, elite wins.  You want to factor in bad losses, and attendence go head.  Add in draft picks and you the exact way College Football News does their 3 year rankings they publish every spring.

Why is it so hard for some of you to accept the fact that RV and DD have been good for the program.  As Dickey's "buick" style offense outlived its usefulness?  Maybe.  The truth is Dickey and his offense work (for the most part) and its works for the type of program we have.  [This is where someone mindlessly chimes in about having a positive attitude will change what conference we play.]  D1 football is hard, and everyone on this board takes that for granite.  This isn't a play station game, teams have to rebuild and fight to get a head.

But hey what do I know, I just a troll.

←

Uh.....................OK......

Next subject please...

[GoMeanGreen1999]

 

elite wins. 

←

Which are?

[UNTFan23]

In response I just like to say...

Yawn. 

Why can't any of you freaks look at the program objectively?

D1 wins, Conference wins, elite wins.  You want to factor in bad losses, and attendence go head.  Add in draft picks and you the exact way College Football News does their 3 year rankings they publish every spring.

Why is it so hard for some of you to accept the fact that RV and DD have been good for the program.  As Dickey's "buick" style offense outlived its usefulness?  Maybe.  The truth is Dickey and his offense work (for the most part) and its works for the type of program we have.  [This is where someone mindlessly chimes in about having a positive attitude will change what conference we play.]  D1 football is hard, and everyone on this board takes that for granite.  This isn't a play station game, teams have to rebuild and fight to get a head.

But hey what do I know, I just a troll.

←

Elite wins 0 - I classify Elite wins at beating a top 25 program nor have we even been close to smelling an Elite win

OOC wins after 9 seasons - 8

Lifetime record 41-59

RV has been great for the game-day experience since he stepped foot on the North Texas campus. Tailgating has been a huge hit and might be why some fans still come to the games. It can't be for the 12 points per game we're averaging on offense right now.

DD's offense runs on a hope and prayer. He hopes to score a couple points and prays his defense can out last the other team. If you look at times when we've scored huge points, it's because of defensive takeaways. Rarely does the offense ever just light it up.

I love how people keep pointing to our total Sun Belt record. As long as we were a step ahead of our conference brethren, we were alright. Either they've taken a step forward and we haven't, or we've taken a step back. Really hard to tell who took what step.

The thing that just bugs me to no end is ... Why is that? The coaching staff can go and point fingers all they want at players not executing the plays like they want, but it was the coaching staff that made the decisions to recruit the players to fill in holes in the depth chart, not the players.

[LoveMG]

But hey what do I know, I just a troll.

←

youse is a trooll ok.

[FirefightnRick]

In response I just like to say...

Yawn. 

Why can't any of you freaks look at the program objectively?

D1 wins, Conference wins, elite wins.  You want to factor in bad losses, and attendence go head.  Add in draft picks and you the exact way College Football News does their 3 year rankings they publish every spring.

Why is it so hard for some of you to accept the fact that RV and DD have been good for the program.  As Dickey's "buick" style offense outlived its usefulness?  Maybe.  The truth is Dickey and his offense work (for the most part) and its works for the type of program we have.  [This is where someone mindlessly chimes in about having a positive attitude will change what conference we play.]  D1 football is hard, and everyone on this board takes that for granite.  This isn't a play station game, teams have to rebuild and fight to get a head.

But hey what do I know, I just a troll.

←

In response I just like to say...

Yawn. 

You yawn in response to others oppinions, yet your still here?

Why can't any of you freaks look at the program objectively?

D1 wins, Conference wins, elite wins.  You want to factor in bad losses, and attendence go head.  Add in draft picks and you the exact way College Football News does their 3 year rankings they publish every spring.

Bad losses directly affects attendence, especially over time as we will clearly see in the coming weeks if there are more, bad losses. The '2000 season was a perfect example of that. Not sure who here annointed "College Football News" as the measuring device of our program, but if things don't change soon I'm truly looking forward to their '07 year end ratings concerning our previous three years.

The truth is Dickey and his offense work (for the most part) and its works for the type of program we have.

114th worst offense nationally the past 7 and 1/2 seasons.

No, it does not work for the type of program we have because for the past 9 years we have been a program that relies on a stingy top 25 defense to score and control the game, which we did have for 2 seasons('02,'03) but haven't had in the 3 1/2 years since. And we are also a program that needs non-disgruntled employees working here that want to be here, who understands that this is an entertainment business and one that needs to cultivate it's alumni and fanbase, not redicule them.

Rick

Edited October 20, 2006 by FirefightnRick

[shaft]

Just to split hairs,

College Football News puts out an annual ranking where it looks at

D1 wins, Conference wins, Good wins (winning record/bowl teams), Elite wins (ranked teams), bad losses (d1aa/3 win or less teams), attendence, number of draft picks.

Those are some pretty objective indicators. The anti-Dickey crowd continue to pick'n choose which stats they want to use to make their argument (offense).

I also think the anti-DD offense is mute discussion. One, if the season goes in the tank there are going to be personel changes. Two, DD health may force the issue.

So why don't you sit back, shut up and enjoy the game. If you really hate the coach so much then put your money where your mouth is an give to the new coach fund. But don't try to stack the stats in your favor, because the numbers clearly tell a different story.

[FirefightnRick]

Just to split hairs,

College Football News puts out an annual ranking where it looks at

D1 wins, Conference wins, Good wins (winning record/bowl teams), Elite wins (ranked teams), bad losses (d1aa/3 win or less teams), attendence, number of draft picks.

Those are some pretty objective indicators.  The anti-Dickey crowd continue to pick'n choose which stats they want to use to make their argument (offense). 

I also think the anti-DD offense is mute discussion.  One, if the season goes in the tank there are going to be personel changes.  Two, DD health may force the issue.

So why don't you sit back, shut up and enjoy the game.  If you really hate the coach so much then put your money where your mouth is an give to the new coach fund.  But don't try to stack the stats in your favor, because the numbers clearly tell a different story.

←

Interestingly, CFN has this qoute at the top of their CURRENT rankings page:

You must rank teams based on how good you believe they are at the moment. That's the point when it comes to putting the teams in some order. However, once the year is complete, it's only fair to take the subjectivity out of it and go by what actually happened on the field.

http://story.scout.com/a.z?s=451&p=2&c=557948

Even more interestingly CFN has us currently ranked 111th, 3 places below where our offense has averaged in rank the past 7 1/2 years.

Shaft

I also think the anti-DD offense is mute discussion.  One, if the season goes in the tank there are going to be personel changes. 

More contradicting statements from you. Why would there be personel changes if we are exactly where we are suppose to be?

Rick