Thomas Gone

[FirefightnRick]

Thank you UntJim for your post. For whatever reason i feel like someone on here as a personal vendetta against me. My whole point this whole time is i dont understand how people could be so critical of JJ when this place has not had a great basketball past. And i pointed that out by putting the records of the prevous 30 seasons before JJ got here and you could see how futile it was. I know i got some facts wrong about teams and their conferences but it still doesnt discount the fact that there has been no consistent winner here and since JJ has got here he has won and graduated players.

But there has been consistent winners here before the past 30 years. Just because you didn't live it doesn't mean it wasn't so. You still don't get it!

When I was at NT Jimmy Gales at one point was going for his 3rd straight conference championship in a row. During those runs, I had a chance to speak and visit with many of our alumni who spoke of the Blakely and Spika eras they had witnessed in person. I learned about some of our greatest basketball stories ever during the ride to Salt Lake and back in the spring of '88. And not once would I have ever thought to belittle those eras that I didn't live through or even compare them to that which Gales was on at the time even though we were in fact going to the big dance for the first time ever in school history. Not once.

...."Well, yeah, I hear ya Mr. OldDudeWhateverYourNameIs, Bill Blakely might have been pretty good back then, but look who they played against? I mean, my God! They played teams I have never even heard of before. Coach Gales' team runs and guns brother! Deion Hunter for THREEEEEEEEEE, Baby!!!! This is the greatest era of North Texas basketball ever!...."

:rolleyes:

Rick

Edited February 21, 2010 by FirefightnRick

[TheTastyGreek]

I'll repeat this depressing stat:

This year marks our first run of 5 consecutive .500 or better seasons since before the Great Depression.

The only time we've been this consistently good for this long in our entire history was that long ago.

Before this run under Johnny Jones, the last time we managed to string together three straight years of .500 or better records was under Blakeney. The last run we had of four straight seasons of .500 or better basketball (prior to our current one) started back in 1950. And if you want to match our current streak of 5 straight .500 or better seasons (and counting), you have to go back to the freaking 1920's and our tenure in the Texas Intercollegiate Athletic Association.

Stop and think about that for a second... Even considering two .500 seasons starting out our stretch of the past 5... This is the most successful period of men's basketball we've seen since BEFORE THE GREAT DEPRESSION. Unless you're in your 90's and you had season tickets as a toddler... Nobody has ever seen North Texas basketball be this good for this long. If it ends this year and we have another consistency drought like our 75 year slump, a current NT student would have to live to be over one hundred and ten years old to see this kind of success come around again.

The last time we had a continuous run like this one... The Ottoman Empire was still around. You could count on one hand how many years women had been allowed to vote. Arizona and New Mexico had only been states for about a decade. Edison and Tesla were still around inventing stuff. The NBA wouldn't be founded for another 20+ years. For any RTVF students and alums out there... When we were in the MIDDLE of our last run of 5 or more seasons of .500 or better records- TALKIES didn't exist yet. You could see North Texas win like they're doing today, but you couldn't hear actors talking in the movies.

Edited February 21, 2010 by TheTastyGreek

[FirefightnRick]

I'll repeat this depressing stat:

This year marks our first run of 5 consecutive .500 or better seasons since before the Great Depression.

The only time we've been this consistently good for this long in our entire history was that long ago.

.....Kenny Lyons? Never heard of him. But hell, I saw Chris Davis play. So there's no way Kenny Lyons was as good as Chris Davis.....

Rick

Edited February 21, 2010 by FirefightnRick

[TheTastyGreek]

.....Kenny Lyons? Never heard of him. But hell, I saw Chris Davis play. So there's no way Kenny Lyons was as good as Chris Davis.....

Rick

Our next win gives us 20 on the season. For the fourth time in a row.

The last time we even had 4 straight .500 or better seasons was before I was born.

To have been a student during that run, someone would have to be older than 50.

----------

Kenny Lyons is the greatest we've had by all statistical measures. It was an honor to meet him.

But that's got nothing to do with how consistently we've been winning for half a decade now.

[TheTastyGreek]

Also, I was wrong.

This year makes it 6 in a row of .500 or better.

I'll have to look that one up to see how long it's been. More than 75 years, at least.

[FirefightnRick]

But that's got nothing to do with how consistently we've been winning for half a decade now.

It's got everything to do with how people belittle the past. Everything! And our lack of respect for the past, or tradition as some may like to call it, may just be why we can't average 2600 fans a game in this greatest era of NT basketball of all time?

Rick

[calvin]

I am not really sure if you are saying i was belittling the past teams or not but I never belittled them, i was just pointing out facts. And what do i not get? Please point out when we were a consistent winner in the last 30 years? We had a stretch where we won 20 games 3 straight years in the 70s and had 2 seasons where we won 17 games. So in 30 years before JJ we had 5 seasons where we won 17 games, thats it. So that means we had 25 basketball seasons of 16 or less wins. In the last 4 years we have won 23, 20, 20, and at least 19. Is there something you have against JJ ? Seems like anytime you get a chance to sneak a shot at JJ or the team you do and to me it doesnt make sense. He may not be what you want or what you expect or the team may not be what you want but how can you argue with our sucess? Remember, men lie, women lie, but numbers dont lie.

Also i have no problem admitting that i had no clue about West Texas State and other things like that. I was completely wrong. But it is funny to me that you wont admit you were wrong about criticizing the staff about the Richard Thomas situation.

[Shuke-D]

Wow. Another good season, with the team getting hot down the stretch, and one of our own player's father is seriously ill, and the most important thing to sort out is what classification West Texas State was several decades ago (not a shot at you Calvin). Wow. Just wow.

[CMJ]

Rick, you know should know me as fairly reasonable guy. That said, you really are coming across bizarrely angry. I don't mean to be condescending, I'm just starting to kinda worry about you.

Edited February 21, 2010 by CMJ

[FirefightnRick]

Rick, you know should know me as fairly reasonable guy. That said, you really are coming across bizarrely angry. I don't mean to be condescending, I'm just starting to kinda worry about you.

Simply arguing a point my friend.

By the way, an interesting point that has been brought up to me(how can I softly lay this on so that someone doesn't get a runner in her hose over it). But it's been noticed that Thomas has been removed from the roster. The printed version tonight and the online version as well. As we now know, he had to leave for circumstances beyond his control. So if we were to win the conference championship doesn't he get credit for his part of this season as well? I'm just asking, not incriminating the team or the staff or the A.D. dept for anything. But when things like this happen is it common to remove them as if they never existed?

Rick

[Green P1]

Simply arguing a point my friend.

By the way, an interesting point that has been brought up to me(how can I softly lay this on so that someone doesn't get a runner in her hose over it). But it's been noticed that Thomas has been removed from the roster. The printed version tonight and the online version as well. As we now know, he had to leave for circumstances beyond his control. So if we were to win the conference championship doesn't he get credit for his part of this season as well? I'm just asking, not incriminating the team or the staff or the A.D. dept for anything. But when things like this happen is it common to remove them as if they never existed?

Rick

I certainly don't know exactly how it went down, but I bet it was purely his decision to leave the program. I'm sure had he wanted to take leave from the team for the rest of the season to be with his father there would have been no problem, he just chose to leave the program on a permanent basis. If you withdraw from the program/school for whatever reason I think you're erased.

[untbowler]

They said in the pregame that Richard's father is deathly ill. Best of luck to him and the rest of the Thomas clan.

Thanks for the update, this is the reason for his leaving in the middle of the season and as fans we should pray for Thomas and his family. Maybe he will be back in a year or so, but no one can fault him for leaving now with this situation.

[untbowler]

Our next win gives us 20 on the season. For the fourth time in a row.

The last time we even had 4 straight .500 or better seasons was before I was born.

To have been a student during that run, someone would have to be older than 50.

----------

Kenny Lyons is the greatest we've had by all statistical measures. It was an honor to meet him.

But that's got nothing to do with how consistently we've been winning for half a decade now.

I think JJ is spoiling us and maybe speaking to much for FFR but as fans we want more, guess that is the downfall of to much success.

[FirefightnRick]

First off, I'm not the only one that disagrees with Calvin. I'm simply one of the few left

who cares to say so here on this board. If you don't like it, don't read it!

While attacking me and diminishing our past, he not only got it wrong about West Texas State, but then admits he's not going to research other teams he knew nothing about but instead continue to keep with the oppinion we are still in the greatest era of NT basketball of all time even though our rpi, as untgeorge has pointed out,

remains low, and we can't average 2600 fans per home game.

Calvin has kept with the theme, and he's by no means alone with this, as I'm now currently poking fun at, is that if you are new to

North Texas, only that which you witnessed is the greatest, and to hell with the past and those who witnessed it.

Watch next season if Coach Dodge pulls his team out of it's

nose dive. There will be new people coming on the football board, just like has happened in the past, trashing

earlier eras like the Hayden Fry era's...(how many times have you read, "and don't give me crap about Hayden Fry, I'm

talking about current football"...) and the Corky Nelson era and the Darrell Dickey

era and claiming Todd Dodge is the greatest, Riley is the greatest and on and on and on.

It's a common theme and it's not new to this board of course. But it's a sickening attitude

with the new folks who are so willing to dismiss the accomplishments of the past. So few people here left on this

board know about some of the greatest eras at this school, and probably don't have the patience

or interest to sit long enough and research or listen to our more veteran alumni educate them about it. And we wonder why our attendance is so low?

It simply boils down to a lack of respect. I know the university does a lowsy job of teaching our

history and traditions and demanding that they are held true. But at some point, if you care enough

you have to have some kind of self governing interest to learn about them and give them

credit. You don't have to agree with them. But if you didn't witness them your self nor have

spoken to those who did at least have some respect for them, do some research and give credit where it is due.

Rick

Edited February 22, 2010 by FirefightnRick

[CMJ]

We're having our greatest continued run of success in about 80 years Rick. That's not denigrading anything. Did Spika have some teams that were better? Undoubtedly. We all know Blakeley had some great teams. Gales made the NCAA tournament. Hell, Shands obviously had some good seasons(even with his carrer mark under .500).

But if a book was witten about our basketball history the big sections would be Spika/Blakeley/Jones(probably in that order if you agree with GrandGreen - and I often do). That's the list. And if JJ stays here another decade making the tourney a few more times - maybe we'll think of him as #1.

Edited February 22, 2010 by CMJ

[FirefightnRick]

We're having our greatest continued run of success in about 80 years Rick. That's not denigrading anything. Did Spika have some teams that were better? Undoubtedly. We all know Blakeley had some great teams. Gales made the NCAA tournament. Hell, Shands obviously had some good seasons(even with his carrer mark under .500).

But if a book was witten about our basketball history the big sections would be Spika/Blakeley/Jones(probably in that order if you agree with GrandGreen - and I often do). That's the list. And if JJ stays here another decade making the tourney a few more times - maybe we'll think of him as #1.

I hear you. And I'm happy with the success

, although my sarcasm cloaks it. I'm just as

excited to see what this team can do here in a couple

of weeks. But if I questioned your post above, or even disagreed with it because I simply

don't weigh the 6 to 7 wins a year over schools I have to use MapQuest to find, heavier than

wins over SWC teams among others in the past, I know

you won't label me as bashing or hating this coaching staff or this team.

Rick

Edited February 22, 2010 by FirefightnRick

[CMJ]

I might not think you were bashing per se, but I would kinda wonder what you were getting at. Sure, we had some marquee wins in years past. Did we have a sustained run of any sort tho? The point when I relly realized how crappy our overall history in basketball was - was a few years ago when Quincy's class graduated, and MGSports had some article that said he was the first player in like 50 years not to have a losing season(this is among kids who played 4 years).

[TheTastyGreek]

But if I questioned your post above, or even disagreed with it because I simply

don't weigh the 6 to 7 wins a year over schools I have to use MapQuest to find, heavier than

wins over SWC teams among others in the past, I know

you won't label me as bashing or hating this coaching staff or this team.

I hesitate to point this out, because I don't know that it will do any good. And I'm not now (nor have I ever) tried to make the point that JJ is the greatest coach we've ever had. Frankly, if the worst anyone can say about the man is that he isn't quite as exceptional as Bill Blakeley, I think that even Johnny Jones would say that's probably fair and it's no insult at all.

But the only top 7 conference (the modern ones) team that we beat on the road in the Blakeley era that we haven't also beaten on the road under Johnny Jones is Baylor. And we did beat Baylor at home under JJ (like we also did under Blakeley) back in 2003.

I'm not saying that JJ could smoke Texas if we got them in the Pit. Even if we have beaten every other non-conference opponent that's played us more than once and made at least one trip to the Pit under JJ's tenure. What I am saying is that even Blakeley couldn't beat Texas, Texas A&M, Oklahoma State... ON THE ROAD. Which is the only chance we've gotten at most of those teams in the Jones era. The ones we've gotten at home, we've beaten, too. The same place Blakeley's teams played them when they beat them.

It's not a knock on Blakeley, I'm not disrespecting that era at all. But if you're upset that we're not beating those guys on the road... Well, even Blakeley couldn't do it, 30 or more years ago.

And if you're upset that we're not beating opponents like that at home, then your gripe isn't with JJ. It's with whoever works relationships with other programs and negotiates premium OOC games. Because the only top 7 conference team that's played us at least once in Denton and not lost to JJ is Indiana, and that's an 0-1 series that hasn't been renewed in the past 6 years.

As for needing Mapquest to find our opponents this year... I know you're not talking about Oklahoma State, A&M, Boise, or Rice. I hope you don't mean SE Louisiana, Houston Baptist, UTA, Texas Southern, or Cameron, because we played all of them under Blakeley, too. Any student of history would know and respect them as historical rivals established 30+ years ago, and geographic location of those schools would be no mystery. And any student of our history would appreciate that at least JJ managed to BEAT Texas Southern, unlike BB (or Jimmy Gales, who lost to them at the Pit by almost 20).

By elimination, you must be talking about Jackson State and/or University of the Southwest. Jackson State is a SWAC team from Jackson, Mississippi. Johnny Cash sang a song about that town, I highly recommend it. As for the SWAC, that's the same conference that former Blakeley opponents like Alcorn State and Texas Southern came from.

As for University of the Southwest, I'll admit that I'm not very familiar with where they are. Wikipedia tells me they're in Hobbs, New Mexico. I'm not sure where Hobbs, NM is in relation to the classic road trips of the BB era... It doesn't have the name recognition of Henderson State, Roosevelt, Central Oklahoma, McMurry, Carolina A&T, Trinity, or Texas A&I.

Wait, wait... I DO know where Texas A&I is... It's in Kingsville. It's named Texas A&M-Kingsville now. That's what they've been called when we played them under JJ and everyone bitched about us scheduling weak OOC opponents.

But University of the Southwest does sound a lot like Southwestern, a patsy that Blakeley's teams played (and lost to) back in the glory days. Maybe Hobbs is somewhere close to Georgetown, Texas. I think I'll have to check Mapquest.

Anyway... Bring them to the Pit, and JJ seems to beat them. Play them somewhere else, and neither JJ nor BB did it.

As for the lack of name recognition... Either you're forgetting your history, or you're just not familiar with Southwest and Jackson State. In either event, I'm sure there's Blakeley-related history you can relate them to.

EDIT (because I forgot one mistake): We've played Houston at home once and never beaten them in 3 tries under JJ. That's the one exception to something I wrote in the beginning of this post.

Edited February 22, 2010 by TheTastyGreek

[gruu]

I hesitate to point this out, because I don't know that it will do any good. And I'm not now (nor have I ever) tried to make the point that JJ is the greatest coach we've ever had. Frankly, if the worst anyone can say about the man is that he isn't quite as exceptional as Bill Blakeley, I think that even Johnny Jones would say that's probably fair and it's no insult at all.

But the only top 7 conference (the modern ones) team that we beat on the road in the Blakeley era that we haven't also beaten on the road under Johnny Jones is Baylor. And we did beat Baylor at home under JJ (like we also did under Blakeley) back in 2003.

I'm not saying that JJ could smoke Texas if we got them in the Pit. Even if we have beaten every other non-conference opponent that's played us more than once and made at least one trip to the Pit under JJ's tenure. What I am saying is that even Blakeley couldn't beat Texas, Texas A&M, Oklahoma State... ON THE ROAD. Which is the only chance we've gotten at most of those teams in the Jones era. The ones we've gotten at home, we've beaten, too. The same place Blakeley's teams played them when they beat them.

It's not a knock on Blakeley, I'm not disrespecting that era at all. But if you're upset that we're not beating those guys on the road... Well, even Blakeley couldn't do it, 30 or more years ago.

And if you're upset that we're not beating opponents like that at home, then your gripe isn't with JJ. It's with whoever works relationships with other programs and negotiates premium OOC games. Because the only top 7 conference team that's played us at least once in Denton and not lost to JJ is Indiana, and that's an 0-1 series that hasn't been renewed in the past 6 years.

As for needing Mapquest to find our opponents this year... I know you're not talking about Oklahoma State, A&M, Boise, or Rice. I hope you don't mean SE Louisiana, Houston Baptist, UTA, Texas Southern, or Cameron, because we played all of them under Blakeley, too. Any student of history would know and respect them as historical rivals established 30+ years ago, and geographic location of those schools would be no mystery. And any student of our history would appreciate that at least JJ managed to BEAT Texas Southern, unlike BB (or Jimmy Gales, who lost to them at the Pit by almost 20).

By elimination, you must be talking about Jackson State and/or University of the Southwest. Jackson State is a SWAC team from Jackson, Mississippi. Johnny Cash sang a song about that town, I highly recommend it. As for the SWAC, that's the same conference that former Blakeley opponents like Alcorn State and Texas Southern came from.

As for University of the Southwest, I'll admit that I'm not very familiar with where they are. Wikipedia tells me they're in Hobbs, New Mexico. I'm not sure where Hobbs, NM is in relation to the classic road trips of the BB era... It doesn't have the name recognition of Henderson State, Roosevelt, Central Oklahoma, McMurry, Carolina A&T, Trinity, or Texas A&I.

Wait, wait... I DO know where Texas A&I is... It's in Kingsville. It's named Texas A&M-Kingsville now. That's what they've been called when we played them under JJ and everyone bitched about us scheduling weak OOC opponents.

But University of the Southwest does sound a lot like Southwestern, a patsy that Blakeley's teams played (and lost to) back in the glory days. Maybe Hobbs is somewhere close to Georgetown, Texas. I think I'll have to check Mapquest.

Anyway... Bring them to the Pit, and JJ seems to beat them. Play them somewhere else, and neither JJ nor BB did it.

As for the lack of name recognition... Either you're forgetting your history, or you're just not familiar with Southwest and Jackson State. In either event, I'm sure there's Blakeley-related history you can relate them to.

EDIT (because I forgot one mistake): We've played Houston at home once and never beaten them in 3 tries under JJ. That's the one exception to something I wrote in the beginning of this post.

I'd say to hell with facts... but, the man of letters has spoken.

[FirefightnRick]

It's not a knock on Blakeley, I'm not disrespecting that era at all. But if you're upset that we're not beating those guys on the road... Well, even Blakeley couldn't do it, 30 or more years ago.

Just an example of one of the holes that exist in your argument above because you didn't live during this era and couldn't possibly be able to compare it to now. I won't go through them all as I'm tiring of this.

In my best Calvin voice:...."Creighton, never heard of them but we did beat UTA on the road for the first time in (?) tries so this is the....."

Creighton (16 NCAA appearances) was an independant,(for 29 years then rejoined the MVC in 1977). In 1975 they finished 20-7 overall and lost by 4 points to #4 Maryland (23-4) in the first round of the NCAA tourney. One of their 7 losses was at home to the Mean Green 75-71.

Rick

Edited February 22, 2010 by FirefightnRick

[FirefightnRick]

I'm wrong about Creighton above. The 73-74 Creighton team finished 20-7 with that lost to Maryland. The next season is when they lost at home to NT, finishing 19-7 overall. Still, a very good win on the road against a good team very few of us here would have known about.

Just a footnote about Creighton during this era:

In 73-74 under Eddie Sutton Creighton went three games deep into the NCAA tourney. The next year they lost in the first round to Maryland. The next two years after they lost at home to us they made it back to the NIT and NCAA one more time each. I would have never realized how good of a team Creighton had back then had I not looked it up.

Rick

Edited February 22, 2010 by FirefightnRick

[CMJ]

Creighton's still usually pretty good. They play in a gorgeous arena too

Edited February 22, 2010 by CMJ

[calvin]

That was un-warranted jab against me.

My intent was never to dis-respect the past. I have been to pretty much every home games since the Trilli era so I would say that i have a little pride in my school. All I did was list the facts.

It has been bothering me that people were complaining about JJ considering this hasnt really ever been a powerhouse but that doesnt discount the past teams. I was just calling a spade a spade.

And as far as you go FFR, i dont know why you dont have the same pride for our current team, head coach and program as you do about the past teams and players. Just this year you have said that we play no defense and that is all coaching. You have said that JJ has figured out a formula that has him schedule just enough patsies in 29 game schedule to keep his job until 2025. After a big win at WKU your first comments were "we stole that game." Instead of saying what a big victory it was and giving the team credit. JJ gets an extension and your first comments are "i dont understand the timing." Which to me made it sound like you didnt agree. Then you say when Thomas leaves, "how in the hell can a coaching staff let a kid leave with 3 weeks left." Come to find out he had a serious situation.

I consider you one of the biggest fans of UNT and i didnt understand why you werent more enthusiastic about what the b-ball program has going.

[TheTastyGreek]

Just an example of one of the holes that exist in your argument above because you didn't live during this era and couldn't possibly be able to compare it to now. I won't go through them all as I'm tiring of this.

In my best Calvin voice:...."Creighton, never heard of them but we did beat UTA on the road for the first time in (?) tries so this is the....."

Creighton (16 NCAA appearances) was an independant,(for 29 years then rejoined the MVC in 1977). In 1975 they finished 20-7 overall and lost by 4 points to #4 Maryland (23-4) in the first round of the NCAA tourney. One of their 7 losses was at home to the Mean Green 75-71.

Rick

Under Johnny Jones, we're 4-1 vs. MVC competition. The only loss came against Missouri State, and we beat them twice (home and away).

So... Creighton. Not SWC, not Power 7, not what you mentioned as wins you missed in your original post.

But if you want to talk MVC teams... We're doing pretty swell against that conference under JJ, too.

[FirefightnRick]

Under Johnny Jones, we're 4-1 vs. MVC competition. The only loss came against Missouri State, and we beat them twice (home and away).

So... Creighton. Not SWC, not Power 7, not what you mentioned as wins you missed in your original post.

But if you want to talk MVC teams... We're doing pretty swell against that conference under JJ, too.

Right, but still, I was pointing out just one example where we beat a solid team on the road to which you may not have known about. Creighton was a powerhouse Independent in '75. Our win over them that year was against a very tough program on the road during one of their highest-point decades in history, I assume?

And yes, we're doing pretty well and are on a good run. Hopefully things will turn out for us to win our first outright conference championship in the Sunbelt. Then, maybe we can take that next step, a win in the first round of the NCAA?

Rick

Edited February 23, 2010 by FirefightnRick