LACK OF FACILITIES, SORRY EXCUSE FOR LOSING.

[FirefightnRick]

.......Central Florida, South Florida, Tulsa, Florida Atlantic, Florida International and Troy.

Many of us have bought into the fallacy that because we didn't have top facilities(prior to the new AC Center, or with our current Fouts Field) that we can’t be competitive on the football field because it hampers our ability to recruit top athletes. I too have bought into this excuse in the past, after all, we are frequently reminded about it in print and hearing about it on the radio that “Our kids know their backs are against the wall when they sign here”. But I realize how idiotic that notion is considering all of our current NFL representatives came here without facilities to recruit to, a fan base to speak of or a 1-A conference championship to look at, at least not in the past 27 years prior to '01.

Take a look here at 6 programs that in one form or another have had much less than North Texas to work with but have managed to catch up very quickly in bulding their program, and in some cases, even surpassed us.

University of Central Florida:

UCF started playing in 1979.

They played 23 seasons as an independent.

Like us, they have recently opened a new athletic facility but they have never had a stadium to play in, opting to travel 10 miles across downtown Orlando to play in the Citrus Bowl.

They moved up to 1-A in 1996, a year after we did.

They entered the MAC conference in 2002 and now are in C-USA.

Here’s a link off their official site on their front page update concerning a future stadium they plan to build on campus. http://www.stadium.ucf.edu/

Since 1995, UCF has fully understood the importance of producing an entertaining, wide open football team on the field. Prior to them moving up to 1-A they recruited a star QB in Daunte Culpepper who came to UCF because he knew in their system he would have a shot at the next level, and it paid off for him and his university. Here’s some of the highlights after his senior year.

Culpepper breaks Steve Young's 1983 single-season completion percentage record of 71.3 by completing 73.6 percent of his passes and becomes only the third player in NCAA history to pass for more than 10,000 yards and rush for more than 1,000 yards in a career. He ends the season with more than 30 school records to his credit and becomes the first UCF football player to have his jersey retired.

Culpepper finishes third in the nation in passing efficiency and third in total offense, while receiver Siaha Burley ranks fifth in receptions per game, seventh in punt return average and 14th in receiving yards per game.

Culpepper finishes sixth in the Heisman Trophy balloting and is named national Co-Player of the Year by the Sports Network, along with Texas running back Ricky Williams. He is also named Dream Team Player of the Year by the NFL Draft Report.

Football News names Culpepper it's Independent Player of the Year

Culpepper becomes UCF's first NFL first- round draft pick as the Minnesota Vikings select him 11th overall..”

Here is a link to their entire history, but I suggest you drop down and read from 1996 on. http://ucfathletics.collegesports.com/spor.../110204aag.html

Interestingly, in 2000 UCF went into Tuscaloosa and beat Alabama, but 3 short years later after a losing season in '03, and after several problems within the program they quickly fired their coach, opting to go with George O’ Leary for the 2004 season. They are currently 3-2 overall and 2-0 in C-USA including a win over Memphis, with DeAngelo Williams last week.

University of South Florida Bulls.

USF has only been playing football since 1996.

They moved up to 1-A in 2001 and are currently in the Big East.

They too have no stadium to play in and opt to travel about 10 miles across Tampa to play in Raymond James stadium, home of the Tampa Bay Bucs.

Also like us, they too have opened a new athletic facility recently, and they needed it worst than anyone.

Here’s a clip from a 2002 article concerning their on-campus facility issues.

“The 103,000-square-foot facility will house 12 USF athletic programs and athletics administration offices, which are currently divided up among older buildings and trailers on the Tampa campus. “

USF has also understood the importance of producing an entertaining product on the field. All while recruiting and coaching from TRAILERS, and without the luxury of a stadium of their own, they managed to build a team in only their second year in 1-A in 2002 that gained wins over Houston, East Carolina, Memphis and Southern Miss, and more importantly beat us in ’01 and ‘02.

They finished in the top 35 in all polls in 2002. They are currently 3-2 overall and 1-0 in the Big East conference including an all out ass kicking of #9 Louisville a few weeks ago.

On a more personal subject due to Silver and mines recent venture to help bring you, the Mean Green fan, more available options for NT gear, and considering the fact that even though we shut down Greenstock, we are still bombarded with questions from fans and alumni every day through email and at the games about ” why in hell can’t anyone get North Texas gear anywhere other than the Denton bookstores?”, I thought you would like to see how USF set out to address this exact problem of merchandising back in 2002. It's a very big problem here that North Texas has yet to grasp the concept of while in our 90th season. http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/storie.../14/story7.html.

Notice the similarities?

University of Tulsa Golden Hurricanes:

Tulsa has played ball since 1917.

For the majority of their history they played in the Missouri Valley conference along with such teams as Oklahoma State, Houston and North Texas.

They remained 1-A but changed to an independent status in 1986.

They joined the WAC in 1996.

Their 2003 season (8-5) was their first winning season since 1991.

The 2005 season is their first year in C-USA.

They have a new 11,300 sq ft strength training and sports medicine center, not sure when it opened but they are claiming it is state-of-the-art. It does look new.

They play in an on campus stadium built in 1930 named Skelly Stadium.

http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictu...sa_skelly.shtml.

And even though Skelly is considered one of the more poor facilities to play in around the region, they still managed to host Minnesota of the Big 10 conference this season and played them very well.

Prior to their entrance into C-USA, Tulsa has had nothing football wise, to offer recruits other than many losing seasons and what the WAC conference had to offer. Yet here they are, in their new conference, currently at 3-3 overall, 2-1 in C-USA with wins over Memphis and Southern Miss, and one complete dismantling of a four time bowl team in North Texas to open the second week of this season.

Many claim that it was due to the success of their basketball program as to why they got the C-USA invite. Possibly, because it certainly wasn’t anything to do with their football program after posting two back-to-back one win seasons in ’01 and ’02.

You can speculate all you want about how or why they recieved the C-USA conference bid, but that had nothing to do with recruiting football players one, two or three years ago that produced our 54-2 loss to them at Fouts this season.

Florida Atlantic University Owls:

FAU has only been playing football for 4 years and started completely from scratch.

Knowing what they would be up against, they went out and hired a visionary coach in Howard Shnellenberger who stated that one of their top goals at FAU was to win a national championship.

Don’t laugh, he quickly raised $15 Million to help get an athletic center started and their major contributor finalized payments this year to complete the Tom Oxley Center. Coach Shnellenberger reminds me of another visionary, the great Hayden Fry, who spoke on behalf of the Mean Green at a press conference in '75 stating, "Someone has to be ranked #1 in this country, why not us?".

FAU played their first game on Sept 1, 2001 and it only took two games for them to knock off a ranked opponent and a year later nearly won the 1-AA national championship.

Last year they beat Hawaii, MTSU and North Texas all on the road in only their 3rd year of existence.

FAU does not have an on-campus football stadium. They must travel 30 minutes away to Fort Lauderdale to play in 20,000 seat Lockhart Stadium, a once former major league soccer facility.

Here’s some photos of Lockhart Stadium in a game against Colgate in 2003. http://fausports.collegesports.com/sports/.../121503aaa.html.

I can think of 20 metroplex high schools that play in a nicer stadium, but the way they have quickly started their program they won’t be in Lockhart for long.

Another interesting part about Shnellenberger is his understanding of the importance to win over a fanbase, to raise awareness about the positives of his program and what it currently has to offer, and more importantly how to raise money. He never focuses on what they DON’T have.

Click HERE and read some of their releases during off season. Shnellenberger always has his teams making appearances all over the region trying to bring as much positive attention to his program as possible.

Here’s one of his more unique ideas that he came up with to sell FAU Football:

“THE DREAM GIRLS

FAU Football is seeking 40 young ladies to be FAU Football's first singing group. If you are a young lady at least 18 years of age, who can sing, and who loves to be in the center of the action, volunteering to be a Dream Girl will be a great opportunity for you. You will showcase yourself as part of a talented musical group and as a goodwill ambassador for FAU Football. The Dream Girls main focus is to represent the FAU Owls' Football Team. The Dream Girls will be featured at numerous functions throughout South Florida and at all FAU Owls' home games. In addition, the Dream Girls will have a significant presence within many of the local communities by appearing and performing at various local service clubs and city functions with the FAU Football players. At all times, the Dream Girls will attempt to win new fans for FAU Football with their singing talents and their charming personalities. Also, the group may assist with local golf tournaments, take part in Shopping Center Promotions, and help present FAU baby t-shirts to mothers of newborn babies in various maternity wards.

Here’s another of his programs:

FAU FOOTBALL AMBASSADOR OPPORTUNITY

FAU Football Coach, Howard Schnellenberger, is currently selecting a team of 11 Ambassadors in each of 40 South Florida Communities. FAU Football Ambassadors will be the Official Team Representatives in each Community. Ambassadors are individuals who embody the Owl Spirit and share our excitement about the future of FAU Football. They will play an important role in spreading the vision of Coach Schnellenberger and creating new fans for FAU Football in their respective Communities. All Ambassadors will be eligible to win a trip to a post-season Bowl game of their choice (including the Super Bowl) plus other prizes during the 2004 season. A reception for all Ambassadors to meet Coach Schnellenberger and watch Spring Practice will be held on Saturday, April 3rd.

FAU is currently 1-5 overall and 1-1 in Belt play. They have not been world beaters just yet in their first full year as a 1-A program, but in '05 they started the season off against Kansas(30-19), Oklahoma State(23-3) and Minnesota(46-7). In their two games against Kansas and Oklahoma State they managed 553 yards and 22 points.

Troy University Trojans:

I think we are all well aware of this program. They have been historically a 1-AA powerhouse and moved up to their first full year of 1-A in 2002.

Yes, they got one donor and a corporation to come in and rebuild a shoddy, old Memorial stadium in '03, so they do have a new facility to recruit to now but it hasn’t always been there for them.

I thought it would be interesting to see what Memorial looked like back when they first beat us while in their 1-A provision year in ’01.

Here it is: http://football.ballparks.com/NCAA/SunBelt/TroyState/.

It was told by many at the time that their stadium was not much to look at that year as the photo may suggest, yet they managed to beat North Texas, sending us to the N.O. Bowl with a losing record.

Two years later in ’04 they beat Marshall a week after the Hurd had beaten K State. The next week Troy knocked off a ranked Missouri team enroute to a bowl at the end of the season and managed to have a player taken in the first round of the ’05 draft and who may very well win the NFL rookie of the year award this season.

Regardless of their stadium situation 4 or 5 years ago, Troy has never looked back, but rather chose to go out and play competitive football with anyone they step on the field with in only their 3rd year of 1-A status.

Florida International University Golden Panthers:

FIU held their first practice on August 27th, 2001 and spent that season scrimmaging each other.

They played their first season against other competition in ’02 while we were going to our second straight bowl game at North Texas.

They played a 1-AA independent season in ’03 and are currently in their provisional 1-A season in the SunBelt.

They too have an on campus stadium. http://www.fiusports.com/football/stadium.htm.

FIU Stadium seats 7,000 permanent spectators and has added an extra 10,000 temporary seats brought in during the season. It also serves as their track facility.

It states that FIU Stadium has a field house but does not mention an athletic center on their site.

As you can read from the link above, they had to combine efforts with the State of Florida, Miami-Dade County Parks and Recreation, the county commission and the Dade County Youth Fair, Inc. to get the necessary minimal needs met to get to 1-A.

It goes without being said how very little FIU has had to recruit to. Maybe, compared to North Texas, the words “very little” is, VERY GENEROUS as they truly have had NOTHING to recruit to, NOTHING.

They are currently 0-4 overall and 0-1 in Sun Belt play. They are currently on their 4th recruiting class overall, yet in their first game in '05 they played K State very well putting up 236 total yards and 21 points.

I expect that, considering their aggressive nature to overcome so much to start a football program from scratch that it will only be a short amount of time for them to move up in the future as USF and UCF have.

FIU is the newborn of college 1-A football. I hate to even speculate what it would mean for North Texas to drop this game against them this coming Saturday.

Rick

Edited October 12, 2005 by FirefightnRick

[BMarkey]

That was an interesting take on the I-A newcomers. Thanks.

Just FYI ... FAU does not have an on-campus stadium - one of the reasons why the Owls are not yet averaging 15,000 butts in the seats per game.

The Owls do play at Lockhart Stadium, which is a former major league soccer facility that seats 20,000 in Fort Lauderdale. That's a 30-minute (or so) ride south of Boca Raton, which is in Palm Beach County.

The FAU administration is currently in the process of reviewing proposals for a 40,000-seat dome for basketball, football and the like, which might include up to 2,500 dorm/suite spaces, retail, a medical school hospital, up to two hotels and more - right along I-95 between West Palm Beach and Fort Lauderdale (Palm Beach County alone has 1.3 million people, and the Fort Lauderdale area has another 2 million or so people).

Lockhart Stadium press box side. The stadium is bigger than it appears here.

As for Troy's stadium (Movie Gallery Veterans Stadium), the uppper deck on the opress box side was there when the Mean Green came to visit three years ago. But that deck was expanded, and anentire new 8-story building was added attached to that side which includes meeting rooms, weight training center, medical facilities, press box level with broadcastign area, some of the nicest luxuiry suites in football, fantastic, 9-yard-long Stadium Club level and more. Across th way, the entire east side was removed and a double-deck side was built from scratch. The field was lowered and the track was removed, bringing the seats very close to the field (especially close to the visiting team). A one-level end zone was added, which empties onto a plaza where retail space is located. That plaza connects to Tailgate Terrace. Thenother ends zone is open, but cann eventually accomoodate up to two levels of endzone space. The stadoium now seats more than 30,000, but can be expanded to about 60,000.

View from end zone plaza

Press box side, with club and press suites

Student section in new section opposite press box side

View from club level seats.

[FirefightnRick]

Thanks, I'll make the changes about FAU and Troy's old original upper deck in '01. I couldn't tell after several searches. Troy has it going on now, but prior to their win against us in '01 they had much less than NT then, yet still came out on top. They are currently 2-1 vs the Mean Green since the '01 season. Your information about FAU even more supports the original thread in that the Owls have to drive 30 minutes away to play, making it that much more difficult for them to have gotten to the point they are now.

Rick

Edited October 12, 2005 by FirefightnRick

[PlummMeanGreen]

I think the Super Pit has been a prime example to all North Texans everywhere as to what having a state-of-the-industry basketball facility cannot always do unless you provide good coaching/consistently good recruiting and a decent budget to go along with such a modern athletic venue. I don't know if NT has ever had all of those components in place at the same time even when Bill Blakely was our coach because I certainly don't recall him having a budget that was comparable to those we expected his teams to be competitive.

Of course, every once in a blue moon a program like NT will luck into a super recruit (Indiana State and Larry Byrd, for example) that takes your program to unexpected heights, but even ISU hasn't done much since Byrd was ISU's "one hit wonder" taking them to a Final 4 back in that day. Of course at NT (and all these years later) we are still waiting on our Larry Byrd and a Final 4 appearance.

New football facilities w/o all the other working components will produce the same results we've had with the Super Pit whose length of existence represents the same number of years I've followed Mean Green athletics, but NT being located in the Lone Star State that has 9 other NCAA D1-A schools mandates that we have no choice but to have such prime facilities because the alternative in today's NCAA D1-A facility arms race is totally unacceptable (unless you all want to go back to those glorious days of NCAA D1-AA and all the great perceptions (NOT) that era helped give our school).

Still ironic how we beat some pretty well known regional D1-A schools even when we were D1-AA but we still had those 2 scarlet "A" letters branded on our forehead and made many of our fans feel 2'nd class during all our work place water fountain sports discussions. We lost fans during that era that I've not seen since, either. NOTE: I will add that we did use Texas Stadium as our mythical 2'nd home and as a prime recruiting tool beginning with the Hayden Fry era all the way thru most of our 12 years in D1-AA; and I believe most on this board would admit that it was a huge "perception creating" perc with our potential recruits, but one that is no longer part of our recruiting pitch since TS is no longer a 2'nd mythical home stadium for the Mean Green).

We have fans who get pissed when we can't be competitive with schools who have a $65 million athletic budget. I am not one of them because I know our annual budget pretty well helps us stay in the neighborhood that we're in. I also know my measley $500 a year MG Club donation/4 season ticket purchase is (for sure) not going to help us get up to a $65 million athletic budget any time soon, either.

I may be wrong about this since I don't know all the posters on GMG.com, but I don't know of anyone on this board who will help us get to that mega-buck athletic budget level, either, nor do I know anyone on this board who will provide the monies to buy out a coach's contract which is what I think part of the theme of this thread is about.

What I do remember of the last 4 years is how many of our fans have most of the time been at this same level of frustration, but our team has pulled out a Sun Belt (no, I didn't say Big 12) football championship each of the last 4 years and its been at those times you sure do see a whole bunch of "Sylvestor the Cat whoopsy" grins on a bunch of faces when only weeks before during most of the last 4 years the tar was getting heated up and the feathers were all in place and ready for use.

LETS FACE A BASIC FACT HERE: We are all a bunch of control freaks (at different levels of intensity, of course) but it will still be the NT Board of Regents chaired by NT alum Bobby Ray who will make all decisions concerning any high profile academic or athletic employee at the University of North Texas. So maybe we ought to just let them do their jobs and the rest of us just hang on to our roles as SMQ's ? SMQ? (Sunday Morning Quarterback). Furthermore, I don't think any of us will be summoned by Bobby Ray or any of his regents to be much more than that after all the smoke clears with all this.

Yet the best part of all this is that none of us particularly enjoys it when our alma mater's football team loses a football game--any football game; and we do have those who give a damn enough as to voice concerns over such and there's not a gol' darned thing wrong with that IMO. We have great fans at NT and most of them I know even post on GMG.com. and a football program like Notre Dame would IMHO have a difficult time matching some of the Mean Green fans I know.

Edited October 12, 2005 by PlummMeanGreen

[FirefightnRick]

I think the Super Pit has been a prime example to all North Texans everywhere as to what having a state-of-the-industry basketball facility cannot always do unless you provide good coaching

For those who were already worn out from reading my research, here's the relevance of Plumm's 9 paragraph sentence.

Well said, Jim.

Rick

Edited October 12, 2005 by FirefightnRick

[TIgreen01]

Good post. Brings new meaning to the comment by DD around the start of this season when he said that we have the "most difficult situation in the Sun Belt....I know, I work here everyday". Clearly we have been more established and have enjoyed far greater facilities than trailers! Hearing those comments by DD was the low point for me in the DD era. Any credibility he had with me was lost the moment I heard it.

I understand the need to keep around the coach who has brought us to 4 straight bowl games, heck I defended him over the last few years on this board....often trying to overlook the negative way that he talked about our fans and school....but this one was the last straw for me....and I don't understand ANYONE who graduated from UNT being able to stomach that kind of talk.

[Coffee and TV]

I can tell you from talking to fellow soccer fans that Lockhart is a huge piece of crap. Its one of the reasons that MLS folded the Miami franchise that was there.

[BMarkey]

The Miami Fusion owner put millions of dollars into Lockhart.

[Coffee and TV]

The Miami Fusion owner put millions of dollars into Lockhart.

←

It was still a piece of crap. That millions could have gone into campaigning for an SSS instead.

[FirefightnRick]

Good points by all. I want most to keep in mind that the original thread was to direct your attention to the hurdles other programs at or below North Texas' level has had to over come. Not to denegrate their programs by pointing it all out. By all means, I salute each and every one of them for taking on such a struggle in spite of it all.

I'm not close to any of their programs, nor do I personally know anyone from there and do not keep up with them on the internet. But I can read typed printed press releases on what is being said about them, and from what is being stated by their leadership. Even though the facts speak for themselves in how all of them have built their programs, you have to be very excited if your an FAU fan from merely reading what Howard Shnellenberger states as his goals and intentions.

Who in the Boca Raton area would not be excited to jump on his bandwagon and buy season tickets?

Rick

[eulesseagle]

Rick---

You have to agree that UNT is still the "cream" of the SBC and still remains the team to beat even this year. Fouts is an old stadium with track & field facilities built into it & UNT is still the cream of the conference.

Got to agree that other teams are improving rapidly BUT time will tell if they can keep up their winning programs or have cyclic programs.

After Schellenberger (however you spell it) leaves what will happen to that program....will it go the way of NTSU when Fry departed?

Something to ponder & I am sure this will cause a little firestorm but here goes:

1. Hindsight: Coach Fry should have never got us out of the MVC to go independent because I believe it caused animosity between the schools of the MVC which later became the Metro Conference and now is better known as C-USA.

Coach Fry (hindsight again) should have had us into a conference before dropping out of the MVC and going independent. That is my "only" complaint against him and ultimately the Administration for doing it.

[PlummMeanGreen]

For those who were already worn out from reading my research, here's the relevance of Plumm's 9 paragraph sentence.

Well said, Jim.

Rick

←

Well Rick, my late sainted mother said after the doctor slapped my butt upon birth, I didn't stop crying for 3 hours. So I guess I can blame the, uh, doctor?!?!?

[Arkstfan]

Something to ponder & I am sure this will cause a little firestorm but here goes:

1.  Hindsight:  Coach Fry should have never got us out of the MVC to go independent because I believe it caused animosity between the schools of the MVC which later became the Metro Conference and now is better known as C-USA.

Coach Fry (hindsight again) should have had us into a conference before dropping out of the MVC and going independent.  That is my "only" complaint against him and ultimately the Administration for doing it.

←

Your history is a bit off.

While UNT left in 1974 the departures had already started.

Houston left in 1959 two years after UNT joined.

Cincinnati left in 1969

Memphis left in 1973

Louisville and UNT left in 1974.

The only schools in the MoValley that are still I-A that were in the Valley when UNT left were New Mexico State and Tulsa.

Those schools (except Houston) joined with Tulane, Georgia Tech and St. Louis to form the Metro in 1975. The focus of the Metro was hoops first, second and last. Then Memphis, Cincinnati, and St. Louis pulled out to form the Great Midwest (Louisville was supposed to join but balked over the revenue sharing plan, which opened the door to UAB).

CUSA was merely the Great Midwest and Metro merging together cutting out Va.Tech, Va Commonwealth and Dayton. The focus was to create a premier BASKETBALL league that would provide a football home to the I-A schools of the Metro and Great Midwest.

If UNT had stuck with the MoValley you still would have been sucked into I-AA in 1982 and had a home with Eastern Illinois, Illinois State, Indiana State, Missouri State, Northern Iowa, Southern Illinois, and Western Illinois when MoValley football morphed into the Gateway Football Conference. So you probably would have left for the Southland anyway, just maybe at a later date.

[eulesseagle]

ArkstateFan--

Thanks for the dates of everyone departing.....I was just going off my failing memory......

That is one thing I enjoy about this board......someone always has the names, dates and facts.......

[SilverEagle]

Rick---

After Schellenberger (however you spell it) leaves what will happen to that program....will it go the way of NTSU when Fry departed?

←

Since ArkSt fan has already addressed the MVC question, I'll add my answer to this question. And the answer is "ONLY IF THEY HAVE AN ADMINISTRATION LIKE NORTH TEXAS HAD BACK IN 1978!!!!"

When Hayden Fry left, he recommended that Bill Brasher be hired to replace him. The administration basically said "thanks, we'll take that under advisement". Well, that pissed Brasher off so bad that he accepted Fry's invitation to coach his defense at Iowa.

Brasher had been an outstanding football player and coach at North Texas. He was so good as a coach that he was one of the coaches that Hayden retained when he took over in 1973. That's pretty unheard of at just about every level of coaching. Anyway, Brasher went with Fry and put together some very outstanding defenses at Iowa that helped them go to the Rose Bowl.

We could have had some continuity in our program by hiring Brasher, (in his best John Belushi voice) BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OUR KNUCKLEHEAD ADMINISTRATORS WOULD HAVE NONE OF THAT! They had to go and diss one of the most loyal and talented alumni/coaches in North Texas history and eventually hire "Mr. Excitement"....Jerry Moore.......AKA DD's twin. Moore proceeded to take a boat load of talent assembled by Fry and turn them into one of the most boring football teams that North Texas has had in several years.

I seriously doubt that the administrators at FAU will be as boneheaded as ours were back then.

Edited October 12, 2005 by SilverEagle

[DeepGreen]

We could have had some continuity in our program by hiring Brasher, (in his best John Belushi voice) BUT NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO OUR KNUCKLEHEAD ADMINISTRATORS WOULD HAVE NONE OF THAT! They had to go and diss one of the most loyal and talented alumni/coaches in North Texas history and eventually hire  "Mr. Excitement"....Jerry Moore.......AKA DD's twin.  Moore proceeded to take a boat load of talent assembled by Fry and turn them into one of the most boring football teams that North Texas has had in several years.

←

So at what point in time did Darrell Dickey steal Jerry Moore's play book?

[SilverEagle]

So at what point in time did Darrell Dickey steal Jerry Moore's play book?

←

Someone needs to call JM and tell him where it is.

[FirefightnRick]

Bump, just in case anyone needed a refresher on who FIU is.

Rick