If WAC invites us tomorrow

Arkstfan · November 26, 2005

YES TO WAC, IF< it includes an eastern division of nmsu, unt, ull, la tech
The sunbelt will not pass any league in football for 10+ years, IT is the dark hole we're in, not the WAC
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The WAC didn't like that idea. They were willing to add one and only one team to appease Tech and nothing more. They don't like going east any more than we like going west.

GreenEddieNT · November 28, 2005

If I was running this university I would have accepted the WAC invitation in 2004 so we would have been there this season and I would fire Dickey and his staff right now. I believe those moves would have been the right ones to position ourselves for a jump to CUSA. The biggest problem we have is DD. As long as he's our coach we're gonna be passed by most schools in any conference. Next year is crucial for NT. If we have anything like this season again our future in 1A football is going to look very ugly.

Edited November 28, 2005 by GreenEddieNT

NT91 · November 28, 2005

If we go 9-3 for the next 2-3 years we will have C-USA after us.

Is their home office in Dallas?

Edited November 28, 2005 by NT91

PlummMeanGreen · November 28, 2005

If I was running this university I would have accepted the WAC invitation in 2004 so we would have been there this season and I would fire Dickey and his staff right now. I believe those moves would have been the right ones to position ourselves for a jump to CUSA. The biggest problem we have is DD. As long as he's our coach we're gonna be passed by most schools in any conference. Next year is crucial for NT. If we have anything like this season again our future in 1A football is going to look very ugly.
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Many would be surprised how one high profile hire in Denton (a la UTEP/Price and a UTEP that UNT still has a nice all time football series W/L differential); anyway, how most of our younger alums would be most surpised how such a hiring would energize this football program from top to bottom.

Such hirings create a scenario where programs can forget its most darkest moments in football almost overnight. Look at what Hayden Fry did at Iowa and the first time he was announced as their head football coach at a Hawkeye basketball game, all Fry had to say at the microphone was: WE WILL WIN! That Iowa field house absolutely went zonkers after Fry said those 3 words. Made them all quickly forget decades of losing because those Iowans all had a fresh new hope for their football program.

I am one that thinks UNT for the first time in our history has the kind of facilities (now finished) and those on the way that will create interest from people like, say, a Rick Neuheisel? BTW, he was completely exxonerated by the NCAA from all the BS that was put on his plate by his former employer, U of Washington, for those who think he still has a black mark). Our program has such a low self esteem about itself right now that the very idea of any high profile hire probably seems even ludicrous and crazy talk; but that is just what those who will only compete at the SBC level or lower would want all our alums and fans to believe now. Some of that group would not be invited to stay at a UNT with a high profile hire in charge in Mean Green Country (and most of them are smart enough to know that cold fact).

Anyway, UNT has once before hired the high profile coach (just a few decades too soon IMO) with the great Hayden Fry. For those who keep insisting Fry didn't go to bowl games at UNT, might that be because Fry didn't have his teams in a SBC type conference? Should we close the case now on that argument that occassionally springs up from time to time? Yet as far as the high profile hire, I bet we could have done this in the next few weeks, but it seems we will have to do all that after the 2006 season at the earliest. Sorry, but in light of all our opponents of 2006 who have improved, I don't see that our team will equal or exceed our opponent's improvements. Mean Green football will (in deed) be a tough sell next year. Truly wsh I could sugar-coat what I think will be another stark reality in Mean Green Country in 2006.

I guess our campus decision-makers think we can afford to eat a coach's contract next year. What they need to get in their thought-processes is the fact that UNT is not in the Big 12 where extended contracts are made for recruiting purposes. In our case and at our level, I don't think they make one hill of beans worth of a diffference. Have any of you seen any differences in our recruiting since DD has had about 3 more years added to his contract? I thought so.....

Now if we have only have 2 or 3 wins next year, there will be gnashing of teeth among the Indians if this group of campus decision-makers want to keep on hangin' in there with a mediocrity that even Jeff Sagarin's (ratings) seems to be authenticating concerning UNT football. The college football world has all but forgotten about our 4 bowl games as an SBC representative, but I assure you all that they know now is that we are a 2 & 9 football program.

GOD BLESS TEXAS!

PS: I do apologize for all this directness in what I have been posting (especially in recent days) but its just how I am interrpreting what I am seeing compared to what I've seen in past decades in Mean Green Country. This football program is under-achieving and has been longer than some out there will admit. Our UNT Board of Regents are having to cover their butts for having rubber-stamped way too many extensions to DD's contract and will create a spin where it makes it appear as if they really know what they are doing up there when it comes to trying to over-see an NCAA D1-A football program, even at the SBC level.

Wonder if anyone would like to show this group our 1975 Mean Green football schedule so they can fully understand where some of us are actually coming from with our complete and total disappoiment with our present standing among the other Texas NCAA D1-A football programs?

Edited November 28, 2005 by PlummMeanGreen

FirefightnRick · November 28, 2005

Yes of course we should join. Name recognition is everything in this league!
And Fresno almost beat USC. Everyone knows their name. If UNT hosted Fresno State it would be a freaking sellout. Come on pepole think. When you tell friends we are playing (Sun Belt team name here) they ask oh you should beat them!
Some of you people never went to your marketing class.
$ wise we would figure it out,
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Marketing? You ARE talking about North Texas, right? The same group who sent me a notice about our last few up coming games the day before?

As for the original question: Absolutely Not!

Rick

Edited November 28, 2005 by FirefightnRick

Legend500 · November 28, 2005

A year ago i said that we should accept WAC's offer. I based it on the idea that the WAC has better recognition, teams, competition and financials. At that time, many thought it was a bad idea. Let us review what has happened, yesterdays arguments compared to today's facts.

1. UNT is a big fish in a small conference, the WAC would make us a smaller fish in a slightly better pond.

Not anymore. I asked what would occur if UNT had a losing season, and most stated that that would not occur, that we would forever be in command of the Sun Belt. Now we are at the bottom.

2. UNT would not be competitive in the WAC.

Agreed, at least for now. But are we even competitive in the Sun Belt? I would submit that we are not. I would further submit that being non-competitive in a league which has a ranked team is better than being even competitive in a league that nervously waits to have a team with a winning record to qualify for a bowl game. Also, better recruiting for a known league would help competitiveness for the long run.

3. We would not receive any media coverage/even WAC teams receive no coverage

Irrelevant. We receive no media coverage now. Where was the news of UNT's latest debacle on the coveted Sunday spread? Did I somehow miss the front page article? Forgive my presentation, but one is deluded to think we get good or better press now. As for the WAC teams not getting any coverage either, VideoEagle states that the DMN has reported that even Fresno State gets no respect from the news. Do we miss the obvious irony of this "proof"? In fact, I shall answer my own question with yet another question: Does anyone on this board believe that the Fresno Bee carried a report last year about how UNT got no respect from national news organizations? I submit that the above is proof that we would receive at least some coverage while in the WAC.

4. Fresno State and Boise State might leave.

Signifigant, but again irrelevant. The worst of the WAC is better than the best of the Belt. Yes, Virginia, even 0-12 NMSU could have won 5 games in the Sun Belt, Mr. Dickey.

5. The WAC has poor bowl game options.

If we were in the Big 12, yes. But we are in the Sun Belt. A conference with its champion attending the worst bowl in the country is a conference with no bowl options. New Orleans will never be back, and having Lafayette as our backup (instead of the Cotton Bowl, Reliant Stadium, Georgia Dome, or even freakin' Rice Stadium, for crissakes) is laughable. Regardless of its reasons, The Hawai'i and Boise bowls are better games than the Wyndham Lafayette Toilet Bowl.

6. It costs too much!

True. So where's the Stadium? We have saved those travel costs and what has it gained for us? A new academic/athletic building and some tennis courts. Where are the baseball and football stadium? We will not get the money for those unless we spend the money to improve the product on the field. That means better competition and perception. Not gonna happen in the Belt. The Sun Belt condemns us to everlasting mediocrity with no new facilities. Better to take the risk.

7. But the soccer/tennis/volleyball/ultimate frisbee/knitting teams will have to travel too far!

Who cares. Football and Basketball make the school and pay (or somewhat offset) the bills. Everything else is just there for title IX compliance. Take the bus.

8. We can wait for the CUSA Expansion bus

That bus has already left. And it's stopping in Ruston, LA and Troy, AL. We are today much closer to the Southland than the CUSA.

I hope to have addressed the balance of the arguments in this debate. Now flame, and I shall gladly answer.

PlummMeanGreen · November 28, 2005

A year ago i said that we should accept WAC's offer. I based it on the idea that the WAC has better recognition, teams, competition and financials. At that time, many thought it was a bad idea. Let us review what has happened, yesterdays arguments compared to today's facts.
1. UNT is a big fish in a small conference, the WAC would make us a smaller fish in a slightly better pond.
Not anymore. I asked what would occur if UNT had a losing season, and most stated that that would not occur, that we would forever be in command of the Sun Belt. Now we are at the bottom.
2. UNT would not be competitive in the WAC.
Agreed, at least for now. But are we even competitive in the Sun Belt? I would submit that we are not. I would further submit that being non-competitive in a league which has a ranked team is better than being even competitive in a league that nervously waits to have a team with a winning record to qualify for a bowl game. Also, better recruiting for a known league would help competitiveness for the long run.
3. We would not receive any media coverage/even WAC teams receive no coverage
Irrelevant. We receive no media coverage now. Where was the news of UNT's latest debacle on the coveted Sunday spread? Did I somehow miss the front page article? Forgive my presentation, but one is deluded to think we get good or better press now. As for the WAC teams not getting any coverage either, VideoEagle states that the DMN has reported that even Fresno State gets no respect from the news. Do we miss the obvious irony of this "proof"? In fact, I shall answer my own question with yet another question: Does anyone on this board believe that the Fresno Bee carried a report last year about how UNT got no respect from national news organizations? I submit that the above is proof that we would receive at least some coverage while in the WAC.
4. Fresno State and Boise State might leave.
Signifigant, but again irrelevant. The worst of the WAC is better than the best of the Belt. Yes, Virginia, even 0-12 NMSU could have won 5 games in the Sun Belt, Mr. Dickey.
5. The WAC has poor bowl game options.
If we were in the Big 12, yes. But we are in the Sun Belt. A conference with its champion attending the worst bowl in the country is a conference with no bowl options. New Orleans will never be back, and having Lafayette as our backup (instead of the Cotton Bowl, Reliant Stadium, Georgia Dome, or even freakin' Rice Stadium, for crissakes) is laughable. Regardless of its reasons, The Hawai'i and Boise bowls are better games than the Wyndham Lafayette Toilet Bowl.
6. It costs too much!
True. So where's the Stadium? We have saved those travel costs and what has it gained for us? A new academic/athletic building and some tennis courts. Where are the baseball and football stadium? We will not get the money for those unless we spend the money to improve the product on the field. That means better competition and perception. Not gonna happen in the Belt. The Sun Belt condemns us to everlasting mediocrity with no new facilities. Better to take the risk.
7. But the soccer/tennis/volleyball/ultimate frisbee/knitting teams will have to travel too far!
Who cares. Football and Basketball make the school and pay (or somewhat offset) the bills. Everything else is just there for title IX compliance. Take the bus.
8. We can wait for the CUSA Expansion bus
That bus has already left. And it's stopping in Ruston, LA and Troy, AL. We are today much closer to the Southland than the CUSA.
I hope to have addressed the balance of the arguments in this debate. Now flame, and I shall gladly answer.
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Great post, Legend500.

In the opinion of many at this time, our main nemesis is no longer Darrell Dickey, but rather the UNT Board of Regents who seem to not have a clue as to who needs to be in charge at UNT as to get our school out of its (now) annual SBC contentment, also who can now get us out of the NCAA Bottom 10. This group has slipped. Maybe they are just more concerned with the what I think is one of our schools biggest blunders in our 115 year history and that by our taking on the UNT-Dallas project.

I MUST CONTINUE WITH THAT SUBJECT: UNT is like the janitor who bought a new 2006 Jaguar. He got much praise, pats on the back, many looks from the chicks, lots of glad-handing also went on after his purchase of that very expensive luxury car, but then came the first few payments of that Jaguar! UNT never had the endowment to pull this UNT-Dallas thing off and should just admit to that and just quietly have that campus transferred to either the TAMU or Texas Tech Systems (both of whom do have the resources and endowment to grow that campus much quicker than we have obviously not been able to). So maybe UNT-Dallas is more on the minds of our regents than football on the main campus. Who knows? They are not as public about things in Denton anymore since we have a private-school trained Chancellor. OUCH! I'LL STOP NOW!

BACK TO THE MEAN GREEN: This football season didn't just happen overnight. You have to have a few years of preparation to culminate to such a year as we have had in a league even like the SBC.

GOD BLESS TEXAS!

GreenEddieNT · November 28, 2005

A year ago i said that we should accept WAC's offer. I based it on the idea that the WAC has better recognition, teams, competition and financials. At that time, many thought it was a bad idea. Let us review what has happened, yesterdays arguments compared to today's facts.
1. UNT is a big fish in a small conference, the WAC would make us a smaller fish in a slightly better pond.
Not anymore. I asked what would occur if UNT had a losing season, and most stated that that would not occur, that we would forever be in command of the Sun Belt. Now we are at the bottom.
2. UNT would not be competitive in the WAC.
Agreed, at least for now. But are we even competitive in the Sun Belt? I would submit that we are not. I would further submit that being non-competitive in a league which has a ranked team is better than being even competitive in a league that nervously waits to have a team with a winning record to qualify for a bowl game. Also, better recruiting for a known league would help competitiveness for the long run.
3. We would not receive any media coverage/even WAC teams receive no coverage
Irrelevant. We receive no media coverage now. Where was the news of UNT's latest debacle on the coveted Sunday spread? Did I somehow miss the front page article? Forgive my presentation, but one is deluded to think we get good or better press now. As for the WAC teams not getting any coverage either, VideoEagle states that the DMN has reported that even Fresno State gets no respect from the news. Do we miss the obvious irony of this "proof"? In fact, I shall answer my own question with yet another question: Does anyone on this board believe that the Fresno Bee carried a report last year about how UNT got no respect from national news organizations? I submit that the above is proof that we would receive at least some coverage while in the WAC.
4. Fresno State and Boise State might leave.
Signifigant, but again irrelevant. The worst of the WAC is better than the best of the Belt. Yes, Virginia, even 0-12 NMSU could have won 5 games in the Sun Belt, Mr. Dickey.
5. The WAC has poor bowl game options.
If we were in the Big 12, yes. But we are in the Sun Belt. A conference with its champion attending the worst bowl in the country is a conference with no bowl options. New Orleans will never be back, and having Lafayette as our backup (instead of the Cotton Bowl, Reliant Stadium, Georgia Dome, or even freakin' Rice Stadium, for crissakes) is laughable. Regardless of its reasons, The Hawai'i and Boise bowls are better games than the Wyndham Lafayette Toilet Bowl.
6. It costs too much!
True. So where's the Stadium? We have saved those travel costs and what has it gained for us? A new academic/athletic building and some tennis courts. Where are the baseball and football stadium? We will not get the money for those unless we spend the money to improve the product on the field. That means better competition and perception. Not gonna happen in the Belt. The Sun Belt condemns us to everlasting mediocrity with no new facilities. Better to take the risk.
7. But the soccer/tennis/volleyball/ultimate frisbee/knitting teams will have to travel too far!
Who cares. Football and Basketball make the school and pay (or somewhat offset) the bills. Everything else is just there for title IX compliance. Take the bus.
8. We can wait for the CUSA Expansion bus
That bus has already left. And it's stopping in Ruston, LA and Troy, AL. We are today much closer to the Southland than the CUSA.
I hope to have addressed the balance of the arguments in this debate. Now flame, and I shall gladly answer.
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Great post. As PMG said the main problem with NT right now is that it thinks penny-ante and acts small as a result. We had a chance in 2004 to escape from the worst conference in division 1A and move up to a conference where if we would at least be competitive we'd get more respect and would certainly be a step closer to CUSA. Instead we chose to stay in the supposedly more travel-friendly Sun Belt. Yup, those two trips to south Florida were really short bus trips. Are we even doing any recruiting in Florida? I mean if we're gonna travel there so much we should at least be able to get some players out of there. Another, and more problematic, symptom of our provincial small-town thinking is that we are afraid to fire DD and his 4 Sun Belt championships because there is no way any good coach like Neuheisel would give us the time of day so what's the point of even TRYING? Worst case scenario is that he or another high-profle coach turns us down, it doesn't cost us anything to at least try. Instead we stick with Dickey, the worn-out old shoe that nobody else wants but he's been here so long and we're used to him so we keep him out of fear that if we throw him away we might not be able to afford a better one. Bottom line: you very rarely get anything in life without taking some risks. Until we decide to come out of our little shell and start thinking and acting like a school that wants to be big-time and EXPECTS to be big-time we're gonna have to go through this miserable little exercise every single year.

Edited November 28, 2005 by GreenEddieNT

GangGreen · November 28, 2005

C-USA or nothing!!!
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Get ready for the latter.

PlummMeanGreen · November 28, 2005

...because there is no way any good coach like Neuheisel would give us the time of day so what's the point of even TRYING?

You just don't know that, GreenEddieNT. Did anyone ever think Price would go to UTEP? (BTW, UNT holds a significant all time football series W/L over the Miners).

Just what if Rick Neuheisel were to make a phone call to Hayden Fry (or visa-versa) and Fry told him everything about UNT (potential & new facilities) that he and Craig James told the entire USA on ESPN II with our national TV game vs. Troy U? There are others out there, too, that a talk with Fry would be most eye-opening. UNT can do what UNT wants to do with all this; after all, UTEP did.

Just see how 8 years of DD Ball and DD philosophy has some of you thinking now? Some at UNT would shoot such thinking down because they know there would not be a job for them at such a higher profile. We've seen all this happen before, folks.

GOD BLESS TEXAS!

Edited November 28, 2005 by PlummMeanGreen

GreenEddieNT · November 28, 2005

...because there is no way any good coach like Neuheisel would give us the time of day so what's the point of even TRYING?
You just don't know that, GreenEddieNT. Did anyone ever think Price would go to UTEP? (BTW, UNT holds a significant all time football series W/L over the Miners).
Just what if Rick Neuheisel were to make a phone call to Hayden Fry (or visa-versa) and Fry told him everything about UNT (potential & new facilities) that he and Craig James told the entire USA on ESPN II with our national TV game vs. Troy U. There are others out there, too, that a talk with Fry would be most eye-opening. UNT can do what UNT wants to do with all this; after all, UTEP did.
Just see how 8 years of DD Ball and DD philosophy has some of you thinking now? Some at UNT would shoot such thinking down because they know there would not be a job for them at such a higher profile. We've seen all this happen before, folks.
GOD BLESS TEXAS!
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I agree with you. My comment was sarcasm. I do believe that trying to go after a high profile coach that people and players can believe in is a worthwhile endeavor and we certainly have nothing to lose by trying. Nothing ventured nothing gained. The problem is that one of the arguments used by Dickey's backers is that a coach like Neuheisel or Price would not even return RV's phone calls. I don't agree with that at all but that is the line you hear from DD's fans everytime someone suggests replacing him.

Edited November 28, 2005 by GreenEddieNT

Arkstfan · November 28, 2005

Well Idaho, NMSU, and USU who needed to be in a regional league have paid $750,000 and watched their attendance fall from where it was in the Sun Belt.

One of the most knowledgeable La.Tech posters has broken down La.Tech's financial situation and said with no reservation that in two more years La.Tech will no longer be able to afford membership in the WAC. The costs have become so bad that last year they had to pass the hat on the website to get enough money to send the tennis team to a tournament in El Paso. That was while the WAC money was good because UTEP, SMU, Rice, and Tulsa weren't taking a share and while Tech had conference trips to Tulsa, Dallas, and Houston.

Bitch and moan about the Sun Belt being unworthy of your greatness and aspirations but your administration needed only to look at the public documents regarding Tech's financial health to make the decision that WAC membership would be potentially fatal to the entire athletic program.

UNT has spent more on the athletic complex alone than Tech has spent on all facilities combined while in the WAC.

They lost their bowl game in San Jose because it never drew enough fans to be remotely viable. The NCAA nearly pulled their charter three years in a row because they couldn't post the letter of credit by the deadline, the NCAA finally gave up and pulled the plug and there are rumors that not every creditor got paid fully. Scoff at the New Orleans Bowl but it is financially viable and local ticket sales in Lafayette are ahead of the same time in New Orleans. The New Orleans Bowl made it despite ACTIVE work by the Sugar Bowl to discourage local business support of the game.

Now WAC teams are left with a trip to Hawaii if Hawaii isn't eligible or a trip to warm and sunny Boise.

The Sun Belt will match the WAC in bowl berths probably in 2007 but no later than 2008.

foutsrouts · November 28, 2005

Yes, but for football only. I think that it's finally time to move back up to 1A football. We sure wouldn't of done worse than 2-9.

Eagle1855 · November 28, 2005

Well Idaho, NMSU, and USU who needed to be in a regional league have paid $750,000 and watched their attendance fall from where it was in the Sun Belt.
One of the most knowledgeable La.Tech posters has broken down La.Tech's financial situation and said with no reservation that in two more years La.Tech will no longer be able to afford membership in the WAC. The costs have become so bad that last year they had to pass the hat on the website to get enough money to send the tennis team to a tournament in El Paso. That was while the WAC money was good because UTEP, SMU, Rice, and Tulsa weren't taking a share and while Tech had conference trips to Tulsa, Dallas, and Houston.
Bitch and moan about the Sun Belt being unworthy of your greatness and aspirations but your administration needed only to look at the public documents regarding Tech's financial health to make the decision that WAC membership would be potentially fatal to the entire athletic program.
UNT has spent more on the athletic complex alone than Tech has spent on all facilities combined while in the WAC.
They lost their bowl game in San Jose because it never drew enough fans to be remotely viable. The NCAA nearly pulled their charter three years in a row because they couldn't post the letter of credit by the deadline, the NCAA finally gave up and pulled the plug and there are rumors that not every creditor got paid fully. Scoff at the New Orleans Bowl but it is financially viable and local ticket sales in Lafayette are ahead of the same time in New Orleans. The New Orleans Bowl made it despite ACTIVE work by the Sugar Bowl to discourage local business support of the game.
Now WAC teams are left with a trip to Hawaii if Hawaii isn't eligible or a trip to warm and sunny Boise.
The Sun Belt will match the WAC in bowl berths probably in 2007 but no later than 2008.
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Great post.

I also think Fresno and Boise would leave at the first chance they got if the MWC was expanded, or raided. If the WAC lost either of those teams, it would be just as bad or worse than the belt.

La Tech will be in the Sun Belt before long, whether they like it or not. I dont see them getting the invite to C-USA with no money, shoddy facilities, etc. I base that thought on little more than common sense, so if I have missed something, please elaborate.