Tonight's Game on T.V. ?

[Zeke]

Leonard has had two redshirts and is looking for another so he won't count.

Redshirting shouldn't stop him from graduating on time. He can get a redshirt and still be getting hours toward a degree.

[Guest JohnDenver]

It should also be noted that all schools base their graduation of the general student population based upon a 5 year window as well. So it really is comparing apples to apples. Females graduate more in general and athletic.

[stebo]

Leonard graduated in December. I think this was his 5th or 6th year, not sure if they have to graduate before the 5th year or during the 5th year to count in the NCAA rankings. I imagine that if he is granted the extra year that he could get a second degree in the next year and a half or possibly start working on a masters. I think he graduated with the Applied Arts and Sci degree so a second degree would be most likely, I don't think that there is a Masters for the AA&S dept.

[eaglehoney]

Chris Davis graduated in his 5th year. During his 6th year he started taking classes towards his masters, he did not complete his masters but he DID get his BA prior to his 6th year. Hopkins graduated in his 5th year. Will Smith and Mike DeGrate both finished in their 4th Year. It was said that Jerome graduated during the summer of 2004, and if that is correct he graduated in his 4th Year Second Summer Term. John Franklin also graduated but I don't know that he counts. The years I speak of are their actual academic years ( i.e. 4th year = 8 long semesters.) Since JJ has been the coach T-White and Shawson Johnson have been the only players that have not actually received a degree. I can't really tell you much about pre-JJ b/c my source cannot seem to remember that far back.

[ntsumgspe]

What was the original question ? (Note the sarcasm)

[Guest JohnDenver]

What was the original question ?    (Note the sarcasm)

What would liquid diamond or gold taste like if it was cool enough to drink?

[GangGreen]

I think Chuggy Bears has done a great job since they took over the concession stands.

[Coach]

Thanks for the info eaglehoney. That should put some of the false numbers posted to bed once and for all.

And yes, the concession stands are much better now with Chuggy Bears.

Edited February 26, 2005 by Coach

[stebo]

They aren't false numbers, they were taken directly from the NCAA website as the current numbers for our program. If you don't like the system they use then that is fine but the truth is, our number is currently at 11% for men's b-ball. Maybe it will go up with the next window but the current numbers suck. I am going to guess that you think it was worth it to pay for Shawnson Johnson's schooling for two years so that he could play 14 games for the Mean Green but I don't; especially when he didn't even bother to graduate afterwards.

[Coach]

Yes, the 2 graduates in 6 years number you posted was false.

[stebo]

You are right - it is actually closer to one. The NCAA window for the current standing have us at 11%, if you factor in that there are about 20 guys that have come and gone during the official window, it is actually less than 1. So I agree, I was wrong, it wasn't two - it was one, if you want to get real technical about it - it wasn't even one, it was .6. When the next NCAA standings come out, North Texas' OFFICIAL NCAA stats sound like they will be better, but for now, they are piss poor - 11% grad rate for 4 year degreed students (they are given 5 years to get a degree) and 7% when you include transfers - which would put us at an average of less then one person a year - about .4 students graduating per year. I would say I was real off.

As I have stated over and over again - I am going by the up to date - OFFICIAL NCAA STATS found at www.ncaa.org. You can look them up but I copied and pasted them directly from the site. And like I have stated over and over again - it looks like JJ will get this number to move up slightly as long as these graduating players got out in 5 years - not 5.5 years, not 6 years... but FIVE - F-I-V-E - 5 ... how many other ways should I say it? The window started with the 1998-199 season and ended in 2003. It sounds as if there have been some people that have graduated since then - if they made it out under the NCAA rules then they will improve the average. Hell, just two graduates can improve it to almost 25% which would be a double improvement. Hopefully that happens.

As far as the rules being shitty - I agree, they are shitty. They are unfair - but the same rules apply to the STUDENT BODY as well as ALL OTHER SPORTS when they make these numbers.... and as you can see, those sports didn't have any trouble beating the general student population. You would think if a guy didn't have to work, pay for school, books, rent, food, and even come up with spending money - they could go ahead and get their Applied Arts and Sciences degrees (which by the way is about the equivalent of an Associate's Degree from a Junior College in the real world) - and maybe even pick up a second degree because of the redshirts. But for some crazy reason, our men's basketball team hasn't been able to take care of business. Hopefully all those guys that graduated did it under five years so we can have a better grad rate when the new stats come out at the end of the summer.

[UNTFan23]

[stebo]

You're telling me! I guess I am not being clear; but I don't know how to better state the truth - even if it hurts someone's feelings. A lot of guys on this board LOVE the basketball team and they are taking up for their team, I understand that. I have favorite teams and favorite players that i take up for. But I just don't see how you can argue with facts. I even said that it was a nationwide problem - OU had the same problem, even worse - they had a 0% rate because so many players went to the NBA, dropped out after their eligibility ran out, or took too long to graduate. So we are not in the same boat. I just don't know why the men's basketball team can't seem to graduate players on time when all the other sports seem to be able to do it. I guess you could argue that the schedules were more demanding as it lasts two semesters rather then one but that would still contradict itself because the women's basketball team has one of the best grad rates on campus, 2nd behind track.

[Coach]

No, stebo, you said....

It is nice to see that the basketball team graduated their 2nd player in 6 years this December.

Which would mean, in December 2004, NT graduated it's second basketball player in 6 years.

Chris Davis - Kinesiology 2003

Jermaine Green - Applied Arts & Sciences 2003

Lee Green - Applied Arts & Sciences 2003

Kenneth Mangrum - Bachelor's August 2002 (now working on a masters as a grad assistant)

Brandon Gilbert Sociology/Criminal Justice 2000

Will Smith - Applied Arts and Sciences 2004

Michael Degrate - Sociology 2004

Jerome Rogers - Applied Arts and Sciences 2004

It was clearly not true. Your NCAA facts and figures are interesting and should raise concern, but do not apply to the last 6 years, they apply to the previous testing sample period from the NCAA which was by your estimate, 97-03.

The names and majors above indicate 8 graduates in 5 years, not 2 in 6, and no matter how many Plumesque posts you pull out or NCAA data that is probably close to being replaced and outdated, it does not make your original statement (which was what I disagreed with and proved wrong) correct.

[stebo]

And I followed that post up with saying that I needed to clarify my statement. But in case you didn't get it the first time - or in case anyone didn't get it - or in case I am just insane and forgot to post it - I was being SARCASTIC but that their NCAA grad rate was absolutely terrible. I even went through the trouble of looking up the real stats to prove to you I wasn't slandering the team for the hell of it. But I guess facts don't matter, just the "love for the game"... and I am still waiting on someone to explain to me why we spent $20K plus to pay for Sho-Jo to go to school at North Texas for two years only to play 14 games and never earn the usual AA&S degree? Is that money well spent? You guys ask why some people are turned off with the basketball program - personally, I can't stand the fact that they don't graduate. I graduated and was working full time running a half million dollar business at the same time; working 7 days a week until 4 in the morning almost every night. And I paid my own way. No money for momma or daddy, had to pay for my fraternity dues, my rent, my school, my books - and opened and ran a business... If I got it done in 6 years then I sure as hell don't know why a MAN, playing basketball and getting everything handed to him, can't get it done in five. And I didn't get a AA&S degree either, I got a real degree and didn't get free tutors to help me out. I could have gotten out in 5 if I had gone the AA&S degree path of Underwater Basket Weaving or whatever the hell they major in. So of those model students you named off, how many did it in the required five years? Just look it up and show me the improvement - then maybe we can have an idea if the number will go UP or stay the same come August. It is simple as finding when they signed with UNT because their first year would have been the year after in most cases. Transfers don't count unless they didn't graduate and then they count AGAINST us, like Sho-Jo.

Edited February 26, 2005 by stebo

[Coach]

You guys ask why some people are turned off with the basketball program - personally, I can't stand the fact that they don't graduate.

Chris Davis - Kinesiology 2003

Jermaine Green - Applied Arts & Sciences 2003

Lee Green - Applied Arts & Sciences 2003

Kenneth Mangrum - Bachelor's August 2002 (now working on a masters as a grad assistant)

Brandon Gilbert Sociology/Criminal Justice 2000

Will Smith - Applied Arts and Sciences 2004

Michael Degrate - Sociology 2004

Jerome Rogers - Applied Arts and Sciences 2004

Or did they not graduate fast enough or with a difficult enough major for you to support the current team members?

[dentUNiTe]

no, the game isn't on TV

[eaglehoney]

I doubt that JJ and his crew knew that Johnson would not complete his degree. Was the money well spent? I have no straight foward opinion on that. Johnson is doing very well in the ABA and it is looking really good for him to either play overseas or make a NBA team. Either way he is putting some positive exposure out for the UNT basketball team. Johnson still had a couple of semesters to go before he would have earned a degree. With him transferring from an out of state University he lost some major hours. Higher Education is not for everyone it takes extreme dedication and once Johnson was no longer playing basektball I do not believe the motivation/dedication was there anymore. He had an opportunity to start providing a life for himself and he took it. I can't and won't be upset with someone for getting out there and making a way for themself. Now, it lowers the graduation rate for basketball and athletes as a whole for UNT. It took away some major dollars from the basketball program. Johnson isn't the first nor last player that will cost the program thousands and thousands of dollars.

[stebo]

I doubt that JJ and his crew knew that Johnson would not complete his degree.  Was the money well spent? I have no straight foward opinion on that. Johnson is doing very well in the ABA and it is looking really good for him to either play overseas or make a NBA team.  Either way he is putting some positive exposure out for the UNT basketball team.  Johnson still had a couple of semesters to go before he would have earned a degree. With him transferring from an out of state University he lost some major hours. Higher Education is not for everyone it takes extreme dedication and once Johnson was no longer playing basektball I do not believe the motivation/dedication was there anymore. He had an opportunity to start providing a life for himself and he took it. I can't and won't be upset with someone for getting out there and making a way for themself.  Now, it lowers the graduation rate for basketball and athletes as a whole for UNT.  It took away some major dollars from the basketball program.  Johnson isn't the first nor last player that will cost the program thousands and thousands of dollars.

True, but he is the first player we have ever brought in that we knew from the start would only be around to play his 14 games as that is all he was eligible for. If you think that education is not the reason we give scholarships than I will just have to disagree. The guys should be coming to North Texas to get a degree, not to waste our money so they can elevate themselves professionally. I am glad to hear he is trying to make a career out of basketball, perhaps he should have gone straight to that instead of wasting our time and money. He was good enough to play in that league without wasting $20K+ of our scholarship money.