Evaluating HS Offensive Linemen

[TreeFiddy]

Some general guidelines/averages for HS recruits gathered from recruiting classes and recruiting sites:

P5 Offensive Linemen

Measurables:

Height  6-5
Weight  295lbs
40yd  5.0
Bench  320lbs
Squat 450lbs

Intangibles:

Dominates the LOS, and puts HS players on their backs. Can move the line of scrimmage by 5 yards at will. Gets to the second level with ease and wins in space. Displays great balance, rarely on the ground. Plays with excellent pad level by demonstrating great knee bend. Plays with a great natural wide base. Shows the ability to naturally pass set, slide and mirror with ease. Can maintain balance running and can hit moving targets downfield. All-State, All Area/District type player with national attention from recruiting media. Typically a multiple-time All Conference selection.

G5 Offensive Linemen

Measurables:

Height  6-4
Weight  290lbs
40yd  5.2
Bench  310lbs
Squat 425lbs

Intangibles:

May have not shown the consistent dominance of an elite P5 caliber recruit, but coaches at this level will still scholarship athletic high school offensive linemen as they believe they can develop them with a redshirt year and a good strength and conditioning program. Flashes the ability to dominate the LOS and knock HS players on the ground. Can get to the second level regularly. Flashes the ability to move the line of scrimmage. Flashes the ability to finish blocks. Displays good balance, rarely on the ground. Plays with great pad level by demonstrating good knee bend. Plays with a good natural wide base. Shows the ability to pass set, slide and mirror. Can hit moving targets downfield. All Area/District type player. Typically a multiple-time All Conference selection.

FCS Offensive Linemen

Measurables:

Height  6-3
Weight  285lbs
40yd  5.3
Bench  300lbs
Squat 410lbs

Intangibles:

Flashes the ability to dominate the LOS and knock HS players on the ground. Can get to the second level regularly. Flashes the ability to move the line of scrimmage. Displays good balance, rarely on the ground. Plays with great pad level by demonstrating good knee bend. Plays with a good natural wide base. Shows the ability to pass set, slide and mirror. Can hit moving targets downfield. All Area/District type player. Typically a multiple-time All Conference selection.

[DT 90]

16 hours ago, TreeFiddy said:

Some general guidelines/averages for HS recruits gathered from recruiting classes and recruiting sites:

P5 Offensive Linemen

Measurables:

Height  6-5
Weight  295lbs
40yd  5.0
Bench  320lbs
Squat 450lbs

Intangibles:

Dominates the LOS, and puts HS players on their backs. Can move the line of scrimmage by 5 yards at will. Gets to the second level with ease and wins in space. Displays great balance, rarely on the ground. Plays with excellent pad level by demonstrating great knee bend. Plays with a great natural wide base. Shows the ability to naturally pass set, slide and mirror with ease. Can maintain balance running and can hit moving targets downfield. All-State, All Area/District type player with national attention from recruiting media. Typically a multiple-time All Conference selection.

G5 Offensive Linemen

Measurables:

Height  6-4
Weight  290lbs
40yd  5.2
Bench  310lbs
Squat 425lbs

Intangibles:

May have not shown the consistent dominance of an elite P5 caliber recruit, but coaches at this level will still scholarship athletic high school offensive linemen as they believe they can develop them with a redshirt year and a good strength and conditioning program. Flashes the ability to dominate the LOS and knock HS players on the ground. Can get to the second level regularly. Flashes the ability to move the line of scrimmage. Flashes the ability to finish blocks. Displays good balance, rarely on the ground. Plays with great pad level by demonstrating good knee bend. Plays with a good natural wide base. Shows the ability to pass set, slide and mirror. Can hit moving targets downfield. All Area/District type player. Typically a multiple-time All Conference selection.

FCS Offensive Linemen

Measurables:

Height  6-3
Weight  285lbs
40yd  5.3
Bench  300lbs
Squat 410lbs

Intangibles:

Flashes the ability to dominate the LOS and knock HS players on the ground. Can get to the second level regularly. Flashes the ability to move the line of scrimmage. Displays good balance, rarely on the ground. Plays with great pad level by demonstrating good knee bend. Plays with a good natural wide base. Shows the ability to pass set, slide and mirror. Can hit moving targets downfield. All Area/District type player. Typically a multiple-time All Conference selection.

Tall guys with long wingspans,  AKA O-Tackles, have a hard time benching 300 plus and squatting 400. The ones that do coming out of HS are freaks.

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

49 minutes ago, DT 90 said:

Tall guys with long wingspans,  AKA O-Tackles, have a hard time benching 300 plus and squatting 400. The ones that do coming out of HS are freaks.

Pure physics - they have to push the loads a farther distance due to the length of their arms and legs. 

That's why Olympic weightlifting is full of:

 

Edited February 1, 2017 by MeanGreenMailbox

[DT 90]

58 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

Pure physics - they have to push the loads a farther distance due to the length of their arms and legs. 

That's why Olympic weightlifting is full of:

 

And Olympic lifts should not be utilized in training for football.  Too much time to train /supervise the proper technique (where the most training injuries occur) and the ability to accomplish the same position specific results using less complicated/dangerous moves.  From my professional contact.

Edited February 1, 2017 by DT 90

[TreeFiddy]

Like the DLine, it would probably be useful to separate interior from exterior linemen and see the numbers.  

Since these numbers represent the entire group, I think you can  safely draw conclusions that the Tackles would tend to be taller than the average, bench/squat less than average, and their typical speed would be different from the interior linemen.

Again, there are exceptions, but the data is the data.  The numbers represent the typical/average for a HS recruit.  Each year there are around 3,000 kids that sign scholarships (130 schools * max of 25 per class) with P5/G5 schools.  Not all of those kids are HS recruits, but there is enough data to develop a normalized distribution.  For every example of a player being on one side of the 'norm' their is another on the opposite side.

Edited February 1, 2017 by TreeFiddy

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

3 hours ago, DT 90 said:

And Olympic lifts should not be utilized in training for football.  Too much time to train /supervise the proper technique (where the most training injuries occur) and the ability to accomplish the same position specific results using less complicated/dangerous moves.  From my professional contact.

I thought we were just talking about benching and squatting.  My point about Olympic lifters is that they have shorter arms and legs, so they don't have to move the mass as far as a 6'5" O-tackle would.

 

[DT 90]

2 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

I thought we were just talking about benching and squatting.  My point about Olympic lifters is that they have shorter arms and legs, so they don't have to move the mass as far as a 6'5" O-tackle would.

 

Yes on bench and squat. Sorry, I had this discussion with DT 90 about Olympic movements and philosophies he works with.

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

It may or may not translate, depending on what you are doing on offense.  Back in the 80s and 90s, the Nebraska program did a lot of Olympic style clean/jerk-type of lifting.  They were also running the I-back option, too, so it made sense.

There was a point at which the Nebraska strength trainer had the players lifting almost exclusively on their feet as well, not allowing them to do lifts where they sat or laid down.  For that time, it worked.  His philosophy was that football was played on your feet, so the players needed to gain strength on their feet, which helped with overall balance and agility to boot.

He also didn't have the Husker linemen run distance (miles) for conditioning.  He had them run shorter sprints at intervals.  His philosophy was that football wasn't a marathon, but a game where you exerted for 6-10 seconds for a play, then rested (huddled) for 15-20 seconds.  Then, stood on the sideline for 3-7 minutes while the special teams and defense were playing. 

Again, it worked.  Nebraska's offense did tend to wear opposing defenses out by the fourth quarter back in the 80s and 90s.  It was a style and philosophy that they really executed well, bringing themselves many championships - and, it began in the weight room and track/field.

These days, if you are passing more than running, you don't need drive blocking as often, so the Olympic style lifting for OTs isn't as needed.  You need your OTs to push people out of the way long enough for your QB to hit his 5 to 10 yard route.  Powerlifting isn't as key for OTs in an "Air Raid''...though, I'd still use it for the interior linemen.

I also will probably always agree that having linemen run sprint intervals rather than distances (miles) is still the best way to condition them to real game-type experience. 

 

 

In Boyd Epley's own words:

"One of the things that made Nebraska successful, which is a little controversial, is running. We did not run as often or as far as a lot of people do. Sport coaches tend to overdo that. They do it for mental toughness, for whatever reason. But the way the body works and the way the game of football is played, there's need for recovery after each play. There's a burst during the play and then a recovery period.

"The body has an energy system that has three parts. The part that football uses only has about six or eight seconds of fuel. So during the rest period of a football game, the tank refills so that you have full power on the next play. If you train football players properly, they will have a great burst, then great recovery and be fully ready for the next play."

Edited February 1, 2017 by MeanGreenMailbox

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

Other Epley things:
http://www.historicperformance.net/blog//old-school-strength-the-birth-of-strength-conditioning-in-the-united-states-part-2

- He also dropped the 40-yard dash from his testing protocol and replaced it with the 10-yard sprint.  Since he noticed that most players never ran 40-yards during a game and that it was more important to be explosive and quick for a few yards each play.

- ...he enlisted the help of Dr. Carl Weir, chairman of the physical education department at the University of Nebraska, who suggested to Epley that it might be beneficial to test "jump reach" or what is now referred to as vertical jump to measure athletic power.

- ...he really started to take a look at the needs of American football.  From this he concluded that the standard long distance running suggested by many to improve the aerobic conditioning of football players did not make sense.  As football never required players to run for long periods of time.  

Epley Basic Strength Training

What kind of exercises are best for football?  The four basic principles for choosing what types of exercises are best for football are:

1.       Feet on the ground

2.       Multiple joint actions

3.       Free weights

4.       Train explosively

Feet on the ground.  Since you want the weight lifting to transfer into speed and explosiveness on the football field, you want to choose exercises that have your feet on the ground.  Force applied to the ground will transfer directly to speed and to stability (it will be hard to move you or tackle you).

Multiple joint actions.  Choose exercises that employ multiple joints.  This will make the workouts more effective overall and will provide more strengthening of your joints which will help you avoid injuries.

Free weights.  Lifting free weights instead of using single joint action machines will cause multiple stabilizer muscles to come into play and be strengthened.  It will also help you become more explosive.

Train explosively.  If you explode on each repetition you will be increasing your fast twitch muscle fibers as opposed to your slow twitch muscle fibers.  Fast twitch muscles fibers can produce four times the force as slow twitch.

 

[DT 90]

I know exactly what your saying. I was at A&M during the early 80's. A&M built a brand new weight room specifically to be bigger than Nebraska's.  Our ssst. strength coach was the Romanian Olympic Weight lifting coach who had just defected.   The only Olympic movement that we did was the Clean.

Olympic lifts are very technical.   If you have the man power to properly train the technique and then monitor each lifter during training then use it. if you have 25 or 30 players in a workout group and one coach then you are working against the numbers.  S&C coaches worst night mare is a player being injured while training, specially using weights.  As I mentioned before, you can attain the same results by using other less technical movements that do not require one on one monitoring in order to prevent injuries.

Understand that DT 90 is a disciple of Frank Wentrich and I am very sure Frank is well versed in Epley's theories