The Mean Green Story So Far Part Two

I have little disagreement with the football part of this commentary, but I don't agree with his concept of NT being the hippie dominated college of last resort. Your theory doesn't hold a lot of water relating the strong counter culture that existed at NT in the 1960's with poor athletes. This was the period of the strongest teams in NT history and student attendance was as good or better than it is today despite having only a fraction of today's enrollment.

As far as being the last choice for students, a very broad statement that may be partially true. I came to NT because at the time it had the best accounting school in the state. Others came to take advantage of other academic strengths and some came just because of it was supposed to be at one time a big party school. Personally, I know very few who came to NT because they couldn't attend elsewhere. Obviously NT benefited by being a relatively inexpensive choice in a big metro area.

As far as a run-down campus, I've have never thought that about NT. It is a state school and as such is funded like the majority of such schools. It doesn't have access to the resources of UT and A & M but is about on par with everyone else.

NT athletes has historically suffered from a lack of emphasis from the administration. I don't think anyone can disagree with that concept, however trying to tie that into the overall poor quality of the whole institution is way off the mark in my opinion.

Excellent points grand green! I NEVER thought of the campus as being run down. Fouts is another story of course. That is exactly why it stuck out like a sore thumb.

"As far as being the last choice for students, a very broad statement that may be partially true. I came to NT because at the time it had the best accounting school in the state. Others came to take advantage of other academic strengths and some came just because of it was supposed to be at one time a big party school. Personally, I know very few who came to NT because they couldn't attend elsewhere. Obviously NT benefited by being a relatively inexpensive choice in a big metro area."

Totally agree. During the 60's/70's it was known as a party school and a haven for liberals and "weirdos". However, it was also known as a school with very challenging academic requirements...especially the core requirements....most notably English.

I had an English professor (a kindly man who reminded me of the actor Edmund Gwenn of

miracle on 34th street), who one day finally had enough of some of my classmates' groaning about his homework assignments. He got up on his podium and, in a very calm but firm voice, advised everyone who was groaning that if they wanted an easier degree, they should transfer to SMU, TCU or UTA.

I told this story to one of my good friends who is a UT graduate (English-History major). He tended to agree with my professor. My friend had started out at UNT (NTSU back then) and transferred after one year to UT (probably because his future wife was going there). He said that in his second semester English class at North Texas, out of a class of 30 to 35 students, only 3 people passed. One of the three passing grades was a D. My friend earned a B.

Back then (60's/70's) North Texas was an island of liberalism in the conservative sea that is Texas. But you got kicked off the island if you didn't do your work. Layabout hippies didn't last long at North Texas.

Edited June 21, 2011 by SilverEagle

However, it was also known as a school with very challenging academic requirements...especially the core requirements....most notably English.

I had an English professor (a kindly man who reminded me of the actor Edmund Gwenn of

miracle on 34th street), who one day finally had enough of some of my classmates' groaning about his homework assignments. He got up on his podium and, in a very calm but firm voice, advised everyone who was groaning that if they wanted an easier degree, they should transfer to SMU, TCU or UTA.

Must have changed a lot since then. All of the upper level English classes I took were my easiest hours outside of 12 at CCCC.

Edited June 21, 2011 by ColoradoEagle

All the discussion is great. Since I did not attend unt at the time, I am relying on second and third hand information. The hippy haven / counterculture portion was not something mentioned by anyone on the board, but was almost universally mentioned by other alums as well as the more tenured university staff. From a neutral perspective, this looks a lot like subgroup bias, and so I defaulted to the broader opinion.

My approach was to present the truth, or at least the closest thing to the truth that I can come to. Remember that the point of doing all of this is for the benefit of newer fans, so the intent is certainly not to be UNDULY negative. I appreciate all the constructive feedback.

Go mean green!!!

Very nice job!

I agree with your assessment, at least about the early 70s which is when I attended NTSU. Very few of my classmates, other than music majors, were actually proud of attending North Texas. I recall one of the cheerleaders asking the band if we could play the "Eyes of Texas are Upon You"!

Silver Eagle is absolutely correct about the English barrier. Your paper was graded in the blind by a faculty committee.

As far as being the last choice for students, a very broad statement that may be partially true. I came to NT because at the time it had the best accounting school in the state. Others came to take advantage of other academic strengths and some came just because of it was supposed to be at one time a big party school. Personally, I know very few who came to NT because they couldn't attend elsewhere. Obviously NT benefited by being a relatively inexpensive choice in a big metro area.

As far as a run-down campus, I've have never thought that about NT. It is a state school and as such is funded like the majority of such schools. It doesn't have access to the resources of UT and A & M but is about on par with everyone else.

I have to say that in my experience with interacting with the student body (2002-05) about 1/4 of the students I spoke with could not get into other choice schools and chose to go to UNT. 1/2 wanted a school that was close to home, and only a small portion of the remaining 1/4 chose to come to UNT for an academic program or something (the majority was because of how inexpensive it was).

Additionally, I would have to say that I believe the campus is quite run-down and in need of improvements (which they are attempting to make). When you walk or drive the campus there is no part that stands out as impressive...in fact, quite the contrary, see the tennis courts across from Fouts, or Fouts, or the broken parking lots all over campus, or the miss-matched buildings, or (prob the city's fault) the poor roads around campus. UNT may have strengths but their campus appearance isn't one of them....yet.

Edited June 21, 2011 by Daddy Dumpsalot

Very nice job!

I agree with your assessment, at least about the early 70s which is when I attended NTSU. Very few of my classmates, other than music majors, were actually proud of attending North Texas. I recall one of the cheerleaders asking the band if we could play the "Eyes of Texas are Upon You"!

Silver Eagle is absolutely correct about the English barrier. Your paper was graded in the blind by a faculty committee.

And if I had been in charge of the Cheerleaders back then, there would be an alternate in that Cheerleaders spot...that night if possible.

I have to say that in my experience with interacting with the student body (2002-05) about 1/4 of the students I spoke with could not get into other choice schools and chose to go to UNT. 1/2 wanted a school that was close to home, and only a small portion of the remaining 1/4 chose to come to UNT for an academic program or something (the majority was because of how inexpensive it was).

I went because UTD sucked, and UNT was an actual college experience (sports, events, clubs, etc). If you want to see what an actual commuter school looks like, go see UTD.

Additionally, I would have to say that I believe the campus is quite run-down and in need of improvements (which they are attempting to make). When you walk or drive the campus there is no part that stands out as impressive...in fact, quite the contrary, see the tennis courts across from Fouts, or Fouts, or the broken parking lots all over campus, or the miss-matched buildings, or (prob the city's fault) the poor roads around campus. UNT may have strengths but their campus appearance isn't one of them....yet.

I haven't been in a few years, but UT-Austin has quite a few broken parking lots and other eyesores around campus. It's just the way it is for state schools; not everything is brand spanking new.

I haven't ventured beyond Fouts or the Pit for a couple years now, but the only thing that ever stood out to me was some of the sub-par upkeep of grass/trees. It is in the master plan to alter the look and feel of the center of campus, mainly closing Ave C and Highland to through traffic and adding a lot of landscaping over there. Not sure when that all is supposed to happen, but the MP was supposed to be a 10 year plan starting in 2005.

Once more we have some of UNT's own seeing the glass as half-empty. I challenge anyone to find any real evidence to support the fact that UNT was or is "a collage of last resort". The campus, while not the most scenic I have seen, is certainly much nicer on the eyes than it was when I was an undergrad in the late 60's. There are hard courses and easier courses at every college and university in this great nation of ours, including Harvard and Yale and all the ivy league schools and the military academies, etc. UNT has, and has had, tremendously well respected academic programs in many areas.

I find it simply incredible that some want to find something to criticize and belittle UNT about at every opportunity. People choose a college or university to attend for any number of reasons...should I say I chose to attend UNT because I didn't get into Yale and therefore UNT was my college of last resort because it had lower academic standards? BS, plain and simple. I chose UNT (never applied at Yale by the way) for any number of reasons, and am darn happy I did, and proud of being a member of the great Mean Green nation. Never once have I considered the campus "ugly", the buildings unsightly or the programs of anything but a high standard. My two degrees from UNT have served me and my family quite well...thank you very much. Like most things, your college experience and the worth of your degree is what you make of it!

Time for UNT alumni and friends to start believing in the greatness that is UNT and thinking a bit more of themselves than to think they went to a "college of last resort". Stupid thinking...or "stinking thinking" as has been said...

There is a website that has student reviews of colleges they have attended. Every single school that I looked at and I feel it is true for all that have a number of reviews, have both good and bad reviews. It doesn't matter if the school is Ivy or Bush league. In general, I think this states more about the reviewer than the University.

It is also easy to fantasize that the grass is always greener somewhere else. I do wonder about all these students who put down NT. Why do they go to a place that is not up to their standards? If you can get into NT, chances are that you can also get into the majority of other state and private schools. Maybe not UT, A&M or Rice, but that still leaves a lot of options. No one is forced to go to any school, if you don't like one go to another.

Edited June 21, 2011 by GrandGreen

Once more we have some of UNT's own seeing the glass as half-empty. I challenge anyone to find any real evidence to support the fact that UNT was or is "a collage of last resort". The campus, while not the most scenic I have seen, is certainly much nicer on the eyes than it was when I was an undergrad in the late 60's. There are hard courses and easier courses at every college and university in this great nation of ours, including Harvard and Yale and all the ivy league schools and the military academies, etc. UNT has, and has had, tremendously well respected academic programs in many areas.

I find it simply incredible that some want to find something to criticize and belittle UNT about at every opportunity. People choose a college or university to attend for any number of reasons...should I say I chose to attend UNT because I didn't get into Yale and therefore UNT was my college of last resort because it had lower academic standards? BS, plain and simple. I chose UNT (never applied at Yale by the way) for any number of reasons, and am darn happy I did, and proud of being a member of the great Mean Green nation. Never once have I considered the campus "ugly", the buildings unsightly or the programs of anything but a high standard. My two degrees from UNT have served me and my family quite well...thank you very much. Like most things, your college experience and the worth of your degree is what you make of it!

Time for UNT alumni and friends to start believing in the greatness that is UNT and thinking a bit more of themselves than to think they went to a "college of last resort". Stupid thinking...or "stinking thinking" as has been said...

This. UNT is a great school, and having worked with UNT students over the last several years, I can tell you that the great majority of them think of it as a good, challenging, and fun school, which it just is. I had lots of options but only applied to UNT because its where I wanted to go.

I'm also a graduate of UNT from the late '60's (class of 1968) so I can weigh in on a couple of points made by Silver Eagle.

- English at UNT was a bitch! Any of you older Alumni remember the infamouse "Student Use of English Test"? Back then, you had to have a "C" average in 12 hours of your core English courses TO GRADUATE. If you didn't have the "C" average you had to pass a Student Use of English Test before you could graduate and get your degree. I had a friend who passed the test the semester he graduated ON HIS SEVENTH TRY!

- IMHO, the campus was O.K. but I do remember the old, original Quadrangle Dorms. They looked like dumps! Best I can remember most of the jocks lived there.

- And yes, NTSU was well known for it's Accounting Dept.

I'm also a graduate of UNT from the late '60's (class of 1968) so I can weigh in on a couple of points made by Silver Eagle.

- English at UNT was a bitch! Any of you older Alumni remember the infamouse "Student Use of English Test"? Back then, you had to have a "C" average in 12 hours of your core English courses TO GRADUATE. If you didn't have the "C" average you had to pass a Student Use of English Test before you could graduate and get your degree. I had a friend who passed the test the semester he graduated ON HIS SEVENTH TRY!

- IMHO, the campus was O.K. but I do remember the old, original Quadrangle Dorms. They looked like dumps! Best I can remember most of the jocks lived there.

- And yes, NTSU was well known for it's Accounting Dept.

I did not realize it at the time (and even argued to get out of it with the registration folks as a freshman in the fall of 1966) when they placed me in "Advanced English" due to my SAT/ACT scores. that I would not be required to take that exam. I thought I would "crash big time" in Advanced English, but what it did was get me out of having to take that awful "Student use of English" test. I would have probably had to take that thing multiple times to pass it, but never had to even try. Advanced English did not waste time with grammar, outlining sentences, punctuation drills, etc., etc., but rather concentrated on literature and writing...which, as it turned out was "way cool". I had a Texas Poet Laurette for a prof, Dr. Sampley for my first semester and then followed him up with the semesters of Maxine Turnage. I was lucky to get to go this way...both were excellent, and no "Student Use of English" exam. It tells you how much that exam was dreaded in how vividly I can recall my first UNT registration and my English class experiences.

That exam was a killer...it sucked! many a student left UNT never having been able to pass that thing...do not tell me that UNT is or ever was a "college of last resort". If you thought so, you were sadly mistaken. I know a guy who couldn't pass at UNT and transferred after sitting out a couple of years to UT..his degree is now from UT! Don't know how that worked, but true story! So, should we conclude from this that UT is much easier than UNT? Of course not...just as no one should conclude that UNT was or is a "college of last resort". Stupid thinking and shows a lack of both knowledge and experience if one feels that way.

Once more we have some of UNT's own seeing the glass as half-empty. I challenge anyone to find any real evidence to support the fact that UNT was or is "a collage of last resort". The campus, while not the most scenic I have seen, is certainly much nicer on the eyes than it was when I was an undergrad in the late 60's. There are hard courses and easier courses at every college and university in this great nation of ours, including Harvard and Yale and all the ivy league schools and the military academies, etc. UNT has, and has had, tremendously well respected academic programs in many areas.

I find it simply incredible that some want to find something to criticize and belittle UNT about at every opportunity. People choose a college or university to attend for any number of reasons...should I say I chose to attend UNT because I didn't get into Yale and therefore UNT was my college of last resort because it had lower academic standards? BS, plain and simple. I chose UNT (never applied at Yale by the way) for any number of reasons, and am darn happy I did, and proud of being a member of the great Mean Green nation. Never once have I considered the campus "ugly", the buildings unsightly or the programs of anything but a high standard. My two degrees from UNT have served me and my family quite well...thank you very much. Like most things, your college experience and the worth of your degree is what you make of it!

Time for UNT alumni and friends to start believing in the greatness that is UNT and thinking a bit more of themselves than to think they went to a "college of last resort". Stupid thinking...or "stinking thinking" as has been said...

Once more we have a classic example of posters with differences of opinion getting called out. Lets face it...that's all it is. Do you honestly think that because I happen to agree with the article it means I don't care for UNT as much as you or the next person? The problem with "half glass full" people is that nothing ever changes because they are always "believing" or making up the "greatness" of the current state of things. I support UNT but also think that it could be a much better place.

I don't know, I always thought this section was pretty when I walked through.

Once more we have a classic example of posters with differences of opinion getting called out. Lets face it...that's all it is. Do you honestly think that because I happen to agree with the article it means I don't care for UNT as much as you or the next person? The problem with "half glass full" people is that nothing ever changes because they are always "believing" or making up the "greatness" of the current state of things. I support UNT but also think that it could be a much better place.

I think the perception that most students are at UNT as a second choice would only come from the sports fan or the guy who grew up assuming he'd attend the school he'd followed his whole life. So they may sort of feel like UNT was a second choice.

But for the majority, they didn't grow up with a choice school in mind. Once senior year came they looked around and chose UNT as the best fit for whatever reason.

Once more we have a classic example of posters with differences of opinion getting called out. Lets face it...that's all it is. Do you honestly think that because I happen to agree with the article it means I don't care for UNT as much as you or the next person? The problem with "half glass full" people is that nothing ever changes because they are always "believing" or making up the "greatness" of the current state of things. I support UNT but also think that it could be a much better place.

And, the challenge with the half-empty folks is that they tend to be negative about just about everything. They can't see the "good' for all the things they define as "problems" and want to "fix"...as long as it is "fixed" they way they think it should be "fixed". They claim they "just want UNT to be better", yet nothing is ever "better" for them. I guess it's all a matter of perspective. One's opinion that the campus is "ugly" or that UNT is a "college of last resort" in no more valid than any other opinion, yet the half-empty folks are as convinced that they see it as everyone else sees it as the half-full folks are convinced otherwise. One can see problems around every corner or one can look to see the positive. Neither is 100% correct nor 100% incorrect. All a matter of perspective and what your general outlook on things is...start from the position of positive or start from the position of negative. Your choice...and it is a choice.

Funny how folks that have a more positive outlook cannot for the life of them figure out why someone would want to have a more negative outlook (they often refer to it as a realistic outlook as cover for their negativity), and those with a more negative outlook on things cannot figure out how others can always find something positive in most every situation. Funny how that works, isn't it?

And, the challenge with the half-empty folks is that they tend to be negative about just about everything. They can't see the "good' for all the things they define as "problems" and want to "fix"...as long as it is "fixed" they way they think it should be "fixed". They claim they "just want UNT to be better", yet nothing is ever "better" for them. I guess it's all a matter of perspective. One's opinion that the campus is "ugly" or that UNT is a "college of last resort" in no more valid than any other opinion, yet the half-empty folks are as convinced that they see it as everyone else sees it as the half-full folks are convinced otherwise. One can see problems around every corner or one can look to see the positive. Neither is 100% correct nor 100% incorrect. All a matter of perspective and what your general outlook on things is...start from the position of positive or start from the position of negative. Your choice...and it is a choice.

Funny how folks that have a more positive outlook cannot for the life of them figure out why someone would want to have a more negative outlook (they often refer to it as a realistic outlook as cover for their negativity), and those with a more negative outlook on things cannot figure out how others can always find something positive in most every situation. Funny how that works, isn't it?

You know Mark, this half-full vs half-empty discussion never ends in much insight gained on either side. Realistic doesn't mean negative....it means that people see something for what it is. As the old saying goes, you can put lipstick on a pig (the half-full people), but it's still a pig (the realistic people).

OR, the extreme example.

As the Jews (and others) were being marched into Auschwitz, they all saw the same sign "Arbeit macht frei" which translates to "work sets you free" or "work liberates.". Now, the half-full Jews would be saying "Wow, if we work hard enough they will set us free". The realistic Jews would be looking at the smoke stacks from the ovens, and the smell of cremation in the air, and saying "not funny Adolph".

BTW, sorry if this example offends anyone.

You know Mark, this half-full vs half-empty discussion never ends in much insight gained on either side. Realistic doesn't mean negative....it means that people see something for what it is. As the old saying goes, you can put lipstick on a pig (the half-full people), but it's still a pig (the realistic people).

OR, the extreme example.

As the Jews (and others) were being marched into Auschwitz, they all saw the same sign "Arbeit macht frei" which translates to "work sets you free" or "work liberates.". Now, the half-full Jews would be saying "Wow, if we work hard enough they will set us free". The realistic Jews would be looking at the smoke stacks from the ovens, and the smell of cremation in the air, and saying "not funny Adolph".

BTW, sorry if this example offends anyone.

Silver...you have to be kidding...what a horrendous example you cite. I am not offended, just amazed that anyone would use that as an example. You can do much better than to use that example...it doesn't even work!

Note" You are correct that "realistic" doesn't have to mean negative...but many folks who are negative by nature often use "realistic" as their cover excuse. Don't believe it...sit in a few business meetings where some colleagues make negative comments as a general rule...ask them about it and they'll say something to the effect...I was not negative, i was just being realistic...while everyone else in the room rolls their eyes and knows the truth. How do I know...well, I led such meetings and attended such meetings during a 30+ year banking career...and, I WAS one of those people for a short period in my career. Even had it pointed out to me by a very close friend. After that, it didn't take me long to see it for what it really was and return to a more positive attitude and outlook. Got a lot more accomplished and had a much more successful team after that revelation. Experience in that world is a great teacher.

You are also correct that it doesn't change many people's minds very often or change the way they look at life, but just on the oft chance one person is able to sit down and take a good hard look (as happened to me), it might just help a small bit for someone. Going through life looking for the negatives just doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

Bad things happen, and you definitely cannot put lipstick on that pig. The pig example is much better than your Auschwitz one, by the way...But, the pig farmer sees lots of beauty in his pigs and the folks working on those pig farms have jobs, and I do love ham, bacon and pulled pork sandwiches. Lots of good can come from that pig....lipstick or not. And, calling a pig a pig is not negative in the first place. So, yes, calling a pig a pig (which it is) is very realistic...calling UNT's campus ugly is not realistic, it is negative and simply an opinion. Calling UNT a school of last resort is being negative, not realistic and is definitely some one's opinion.

I think I'll leave it at that.

As the Jews (and others) were being marched into Auschwitz, they all saw the same sign "Arbeit macht frei" which translates to "work sets you free" or "work liberates.". Now, the half-full Jews would be saying "Wow, if we work hard enough they will set us free". The realistic Jews would be looking at the smoke stacks from the ovens, and the smell of cremation in the air, and saying "not funny Adolph".

BTW, sorry if this example offends anyone.

Silver with an all-time low.

I think I hear a tiny, but powerful, round of applause coming from the mid-cities...

I have little disagreement with the football part of this commentary, but I don't agree with his concept of NT being the hippie dominated college of last resort. Your theory doesn't hold a lot of water relating the strong counter culture that existed at NT in the 1960's with poor athletes. This was the period of the strongest teams in NT history and student attendance was as good or better than it is today despite having only a fraction of today's enrollment.

As far as being the last choice for students, a very broad statement that may be partially true. I came to NT because at the time it had the best accounting school in the state. Others came to take advantage of other academic strengths and some came just because of it was supposed to be at one time a big party school. Personally, I know very few who came to NT because they couldn't attend elsewhere. Obviously NT benefited by being a relatively inexpensive choice in a big metro area.

As far as a run-down campus, I've have never thought that about NT. It is a state school and as such is funded like the majority of such schools. It doesn't have access to the resources of UT and A & M but is about on par with everyone else.

NT athletes has historically suffered from a lack of emphasis from the administration. I don't think anyone can disagree with that concept, however trying to tie that into the overall poor quality of the whole institution is way off the mark in my opinion.

Silver...you have to be kidding...what a horrendous example you cite. I am not offended, just amazed that anyone would use that as an example. You can do much better than to use that example...it doesn't even work!

Note" You are correct that "realistic" doesn't have to mean negative...but many folks who are negative by nature often use "realistic" as their cover excuse. Don't believe it...sit in a few business meetings where some colleagues make negative comments as a general rule...ask them about it and they'll say something to the effect...I was not negative, i was just being realistic...while everyone else in the room rolls their eyes and knows the truth. How do I know...well, I led such meetings and attended such meetings during a 30+ year banking career...and, I WAS one of those people for a short period in my career. Even had it pointed out to me by a very close friend. After that, it didn't take me long to see it for what it really was and return to a more positive attitude and outlook. Got a lot more accomplished and had a much more successful team after that revelation. Experience in that world is a great teacher.

You are also correct that it doesn't change many people's minds very often or change the way they look at life, but just on the oft chance one person is able to sit down and take a good hard look (as happened to me), it might just help a small bit for someone. Going through life looking for the negatives just doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

Bad things happen, and you definitely cannot put lipstick on that pig. The pig example is much better than your Auschwitz one, by the way...But, the pig farmer sees lots of beauty in his pigs and the folks working on those pig farms have jobs, and I do love ham, bacon and pulled pork sandwiches. Lots of good can come from that pig....lipstick or not. And, calling a pig a pig is not negative in the first place. So, yes, calling a pig a pig (which it is) is very realistic...calling UNT's campus ugly is not realistic, it is negative and simply an opinion. Calling UNT a school of last resort is being negative, not realistic and is definitely some one's opinion.

I think I'll leave it at that.

Where can I get your biography besides on a GMG forum?

People love to generalize, but generalizations are usually not too helpful. When I hear that North Texas is a school of last resort, or that fill-in-any-school here has the prettiest wimmin or the best Greeks or the sorriest dining halls, or that fill-in-any-city has the worst drivers or the most fickle sports fans, I kind of roll my eyes.

So NT was perceived as a hippie school in the 1960s and '70s. Nothing special there. So were just about all of them, with the possible exception of Bob Jones University and such. Not only were dope, sex, and freedom freshly discovered all across our great nation, but hundreds of thousands of guys stuck around in school as long as possible to keep out of that Asian adventure. Those striving to keep their student deferments ranged from Weather Underground wannabes to future chest-beating podium patriots. Their efforts gave most big schools of the era a distinctively Hashbury air. It wasn't a North Texas thing.