Greendylan

Players, recruits, assistant coaches, and most alumni are fleeing like it's the evacuation of Saigon. Remind me again what it is that we're doing to solve this problem.

Well, that makes sense. But, what I fail to understand is why those certain prominent donors are of a completely different opinion about Benford than just about everyone else who watched our team play this season. I feel like one of two possible scenarios is taking place. Either RV has convinced his buddies that Benford is a great coach with a bunch of bums for players OR . . . some of those with major influence on our athletic program have personal agendas that don't include winning as a high priority.

Just out of curiosity, why would our big donors have any particular allegiance to Benford? I'm not saying they don't, but I have to wonder from where this stems.

It's a simple math problem. If an athletic department stands to take a bigger financial hit by retaining a coach than by buying him out, then the bottom line may force their hand.

OK, this is a good discussion. Here are our home attendance numbers in order from the 2004-05 season through this past one: 2285, 2147, 2067, 3178, 3004, 2716, 3552, 4006, 3518. I think it's pretty obvious that we were solidly trending upward, and that shift began after our appearance in the NCAA tournament in 2007. You're right that our best average, 4006, is still way too low, but it is worlds better than the 1200 average you mention in years past. So, there are two points that we should take away from these numbers. 1. In recent years there does seem to be a correlation between success and attendance. 2. 3000-4000 may not be great, but it took us a long way to even work up to that, and all indications seemed to be that we were, for the most part, on an upward swing. Thus, we still do have a long way to fall, and averaging around 1000 will essentially set us decades behind. Falling that far in such a short amount of time would be absolutely catastrophic to our program . . . and it is almost inevitable, barring a dramatic change.

I'm relatively certain that Reality Check's suggestion of booing at the Coach's Caravan was meant more as hyperbole than a literal statement. Also, let me clarify that I am not in any way advocating not showing up at home games. However, our (those on this board) frustrations are somewhat suggestive of our alumni as a whole. If people on here are becoming disenchanted with our performances on game day, imagine what the average alum thinks? They probably went back to not caring one bit about our basketball team the minute we lost to UAH. Now that they see that our leadership intends to do absolutely nothing about the problem, they won't attend a game for years to come. The way things are headed, 2500 is VERY optimistic for the next few seasons.

While this sounds a bit harsh, I agree with the essence of what you're saying, which is that the alumni are not doing their job of shouting, "This is unacceptable!" Some of you have recently been asking, "Why constantly bitch on here? What good does it do?" Well, I think it changes everything . . . but only if our voices are so loud, united, and consistent that the Athletic Department and BOR know that they have no choice but to make a change or face an empty Super Pit for the next couple years. When only a couple dozen Mean Green supporters (even on a fan message board) really voice any frustration after the most disappointing season in school history, then that sends the unequivocal message that we just don't give a damn when it comes down to it. Make no mistake about it, our once (just a few months ago) proud program--the program that was the savior of our athletic department during the humiliating Dodge years--has been dismantled before our very eyes, and we're doing . . . nothing.

Ya know, I find myself caring a lot less than one should after basically finding out that pretty much every player who realistically can leave our program is sprinting out the door. Here's the point: Even if we could return everyone not named Tony Mitchell, this team would be headed for single-digit wins next year. So, there's not much left to lose at this point. Men's basketball at UNT is closed for the next several years. Of course, we could fix the problem by raising funds, which is what Southern Miss's football program had to do a few months ago. I mean, we are capable of raising some significant cash in a short window of time, aren't we?

I agree with your concern, but in fairness to Thompson, he really didn't have many weapons to work with last year. I think we will have about three or four significant new skill position players who will help any of our QBs look at least a little better.

I wish the man and our team success, and in all honesty I would forget all about this year if we just won 20 games next year. But...I've come to learn that miracles don't happen in Mean Green land. We're done for the next several years, at least, as far as men's basketball is concerned. We had our one big shot and blew it about as bad as anyone can blow it.

Ok, not the wittiest approach, admittedly. Just having some late night fun and posting the first thing to come to mind...as I am wont to do!

An hour and 23 minutes...I'm on the east coast.

. . . According to my sources

Sadly, I don't even care in the least who we play next year. I'll cheer for us, but our AD has already raised the white flag for next season.

My how far we've fallen. This time a year ago we would have bristled at a 14 or 16 seed in the NCAA tournament. Now "14 if not 16" is a possible win total for next season . . . and that's the extremist view. If only there were something we could do to restore hope . . .

Good fix . . . and that's exactly the point. Why will any alumni (other than the most hardcore of us) give their time and/or money to a program whose leadership is shouting "We don't care!"

Even more embarrassing than our current trajectory (barring a miracle recruit) to finish with around 25 losses is the message we're sending to the college basketball world.

You raise some excellent points, and I can certainly appreciate this line of thinking. My concern is that a potential recruit might come across this message board and think, "Wow, after such a disappointing season, I expected more of them to be pissed off. I guess they're just so used to sucking that it isn't even a big deal any more." Based on some posts here, one would think we had been in the middle of a complete and utter rebuilding phase after years of irrelevance heading into this season. In reality, we had been a good team for several years and finally were poised to become a great team on the national stage. I'm so foolishly optimistic that I actually believe that even without Tony Mitchell we have the talent to have a decent season next year and finish near the top of CUSA--with the right leadership. So, honest question: Did some of you honestly see signs from this season that our current coaching incarnation will bounce back next year with a winning season? If you did not see such signs but you still want to see another year or two out of them, then should I assume that you don't believe our players are very good and that realistically no coach could have won with them? Or, third option, do you simply not advocate a coaching change because you know we can't afford it anyway, so it's best not to even publicly discuss it and admit our financial woes?

Agreed!

I know that Walton was an important component of our team chemistry. I'm even willing to take a leap and accept that losing our only legitimate, consistent three-point threat completely changed the game plan. However, we finished about 200 spots lower in RPI (246) than we were supposed to based on most preseason projections. I don't think there's any player in the nation who is capable of affecting a team either positively or negatively to that extent. If losing one player crushed our plans that much, then what will our record be after losing Mitchell? Will we be winless? With all due respect to those more optimistic about next year, I still don't think there are many Division I programs in the nation that would return a coaching staff after such a humiliating catastrophe. Once again, I hope I'm wrong--it's happened before.

The ultimate flag of surrender will come the day that no one publicly complains after a massively disappointing season. In fact, I'm already so dismayed by the complacency of many on here.

Back to the original point of this thread: no teams in Texas. Do I even need to explain the difference between us and all the usual suspects? Next year there will be two or three ranked Texas teams and four or five tournament teams, and we won't be one of them.

This is what troubles me the most about moving forward with Benford. Mitchell is as good as gone. So, even if, by some miracle, our coaching staff suddenly figures things out over the course of the next several months, we still will finish with fewer wins next year. I just don't see any realistic way to expect even the same performance as this season.

Out of the 124 current athletic programs that field BCS (Division IA) football in addition to men's and women's basketball, only North Texas, South Alabama, and New Mexico State have had neither a bowl appearance nor a basketball postseason win (NCAA or NIT) since 2004. South Alabama hasn't really had a chance yet in football, and they did receive an at-large NCAA bid during that span, which we never have. New Mexico State had three NCAA appearances to our two during the past eight years. Granted, this is only one way of measuring athletic department performance, and I'm kind of arbitrarily picking a year for obvious reasons. Furthermore, I'm neglecting all other sports. Still, I think the facts above show why some of us are starting to get really frustrated with futility in the major sports--especially now that it looks like we're married to a men's basketball coach who may sink the program for years to come, if he's allowed to continue.

I respect your point of view in this statement above. In truth, I used to routinely avoid making negative comments because of the obvious concerns with impugning one's own alma mater. In the past I did personally email RV as opposed to publicly voicing my concerns. However, in this particular case, I feel that the damage to our basketball program is already so severe that public criticism is necessary--anything really to pressure those with decision-making abilities to see the situation as it actually stands. Also, I think any collateral damage to our athletic department's reputation through public criticism of one particular head coach is moot because we have probably already lost all credibility with potential recruits, new donors, fans, etc. by touting our "greatest team ever" and then turning out to be one of the worst teams in the nation. Praising and supporting the return of the aforementioned head coach would be the ultimate signal of surrender by this athletic department. It would essentially be saying, "We have no standards here. Success really isn't that important to us and probably isn't even attainable, so just sit back and enjoy barely competing at a Division One level." Additionally, as I've said before, I don't think it's fair to Tony Benford to make the guy endure another season or two that will assuredly destroy his coaching career. Maybe it isn't entirely his fault that he didn't succeed this past season. In fact, that's certainly a plausibility. However, I did not see ANY evidence of progress throughout the year. Loss to a Division II team, 0-5 vs. Louisiana-Monroe/Lafayette (four of those losses by double digits, including a blowout in the first round of the SBC tournament). We were 3-14 against Division I teams with a better than 200 RPI. We didn't just fail to achieve our goals this season; we failed about as badly as it is possible to fail in almost every way imaginable, and we concluded the campaign by being obliterated by a team with a 221 RPI. And, if you look at when the losses occurred, there really isn't any realistic way to blame the injuries. So, please, can anyone honestly say that we are headed in the right direction? I mean, next year could be better (It will mostly likely be far, far worse once we lose an NBA quality player), but why should we settle for just better than terrible when we never should have been in a rebuilding process in the first place? I don't doubt that Coach Benford and his staff will do everything within their abilities "to make this program into something special." Based on the evidence I saw this past season, however, he and his staff do not have the ability to succeed at this university. If he had a record of success as a head coach elsewhere, then I would give him more time, but such a line does not exist on his resume. I REALLY hope that I'm wrong. It's possible. But it's also possible, given our history, that we will dedicate ourselves to the ideas of "hope," "next year," "potential," and "some day"...and all of this will end up sinking our basketball program to the bottom dregs of Division One. We're almost there already (RPI of 255), and another year under the same leadership and without Tony Mitchell could drop us into the 300s. If that happens, the best case scenario would be that we would then hire an amazing coach who over the course of the next 5 or 6 years would try to mend our ailing recruiting pipelines and maybe, with a lot of luck, get us to a winning record in CUSA within the next decade. Sound extreme? Take a look at football: The MAJORITY of Division One teams make a bowl game each year, and we haven't been to one in eight years. Again, I REALLY hope that I'm wrong. I'm not privy to any inside information, and if there are crucial details that I don't know that are causing me to speak out of turn, then I apologize. I'm also open to alternative opinions, and if anyone can explain to me what about this season suggests future success, I'm willing to listen. To say, "what's the harm in giving it one more year?" is a mistake, I believe, in this case. First, another horrible year would COMPLETELY erase any success we had under JJ, assuming we haven't already squandered all our reputation points from two relatively recent NCAA tournament appearances and several consecutive 20-win seasons. Second, I don't see the logic in continuing something that is almost certain to fail, at great cost, just because it could theoretically, by some miracle, work. By that rationale, why ever fire anyone? I mean, there's always a chance that any given coach will suddenly "get it" and figure out how to win. One season is not a large sample size, but it was probably the best opportunity we could have given a new head coach: returning NBA first-round draft pick caliber player, pretty much all the starters returning, regular finishes in the conference championship game, preseason rankings somewhere in the vicinity of 25-75 (some higher). If he couldn't succeed under those circumstances, then why will it work next year? Many mid-major coaches go their whole careers without having a Tony Mitchell. We could give Benford 30 more years, and he would likely not have that much talent to work with again. So, even if he tremendously improves as a coach, that might still only get us back to the same record we had this season. This isn't about "hatred." I have nothing personally against Benford, RV, or anyone else in the athletic department. In fact, I'm quite sure they are all good, decent people. I just don't want to see another 5,6,7,8, or more years go by with our athletic program having been rendered completely irrelevant even in our own state. What if we continue to finish below .500 in football? What if basketball becomes the perennial cellar dweller of CUSA? We will lose SO many thousands of alumni who will come and go without having a single iota of pride in UNT athletics. That means that we will suffer mightily on the fundraising front long after the current leaders of our school and athletic department have retired or otherwise moved on. We stand to lose so much respect in the eyes of recruits, high school coaches, donors, alumni, students, and college basketball fans in general if we accept the results of this season with anything other than outrage.