Football vs. Library argument popping up again

[meangreenthirteen]

Somehow, the issue of library salaries, which appear to have been coming from some kind of misappropriated funds, then got sidetracked to the completely unrelated new football stadium, leads to a thread on the condition of the auditorium and the volume of the organ. My simple mind cannot handle the multi-tasking.

Bye weeks, man.

[jazzer88]

But from what I've gathered, here's the deal:

At some point, however many years back, UNT's libraries were joint funded through state funds and student fees. Back then, the fees were designed to be a supplement to state funds to bump salaries, get new materials, etc.

Then, the student library fee was increased (again, many years ago), and some people thought that the fee alone could cover the expenses of the library, salaries/wages included. So for employees past a certain cutoff date, they were paid out of student fees. And for employees before a certain date, whose pay came from state funds, they continued to be paid from state funds. To offset this, both the previous and current Dean of the Libraries asked for a fee increase, but they were declined.

Now the issue is that ALL library employees have to be paid through student fees, no grandfathering allowed. This means that a student fee that was never designed to support the pay of all of the employees and running operations of the library has to do exactly that.

Apogee or not, the library system would still be shafted right now.

Folks, many of you are commenting on "knee jerk" student comments that position the library vs. football. There's absolutely no real connection between the two, and the library administration is not making such a case. The quote is an excellent summary of the situation, but it's even worse. The library has been making drastic cuts in the workforce, materials, and students workers for years. They are already cut to the bone and that's what makes this recent situation so shocking. Corrections to some comments: the library fee is 16.50 per credit. The Intercollegiate Athletics Fee is 10.00 per credit. The library fee has not been raised since 2004. That's right, it's been nearly 10 years since a raise. Believe me, fees and materials have gone way up in nine years. Who cares? Well, if UNT really wants to be respected as a first class institution, let alone Tier 1, it ALL begins with a research library. The truth is, this library has struggled to keep current for years, and this will make things much worse. A library invests in the future, so many cuts aren't felt immediately, it's future students who will suffer and so will UNT's reputation.

[MeanGreenTexan]

But from what I've gathered, here's the deal:

At some point, however many years back, UNT's libraries were joint funded through state funds and student fees. Back then, the fees were designed to be a supplement to state funds to bump salaries, get new materials, etc.

Then, the student library fee was increased (again, many years ago), and some people thought that the fee alone could cover the expenses of the library, salaries/wages included. So for employees past a certain cutoff date, they were paid out of student fees. And for employees before a certain date, whose pay came from state funds, they continued to be paid from state funds. To offset this, both the previous and current Dean of the Libraries asked for a fee increase, but they were declined.

Now the issue is that ALL library employees have to be paid through student fees, no grandfathering allowed. This means that a student fee that was never designed to support the pay of all of the employees and running operations of the library has to do exactly that.

Apogee or not, the library system would still be shafted right now.

Folks, many of you are commenting on "knee jerk" student comments that position the library vs. football. There's absolutely no real connection between the two, and the library administration is not making such a case. The quote is an excellent summary of the situation, but it's even worse. The library has been making drastic cuts in the workforce, materials, and students workers for years. They are already cut to the bone and that's what makes this recent situation so shocking. Corrections to some comments: the library fee is 16.50 per credit. The Intercollegiate Athletics Fee is 10.00 per credit. The library fee has not been raised since 2004. That's right, it's been nearly 10 years since a raise. Believe me, fees and materials have gone way up in nine years. Who cares? Well, if UNT really wants to be respected as a first class institution, let alone Tier 1, it ALL begins with a research library. The truth is, this library has struggled to keep current for years, and this will make things much worse. A library invests in the future, so many cuts aren't felt immediately, it's future students who will suffer and so will UNT's reputation.

Good feedback Jazzer.

Question:

Does the $16.50/credit hour count only for Willis, or is it also used for the SRL and other smaller offshoot libraries (if there are any?) as well?

[Christopher Walker]

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

[greenminer]

Somehow, the issue of library salaries, which appear to have been coming from some kind of misappropriated funds, then got sidetracked to the completely unrelated new football stadium, leads to a thread on the condition of the auditorium and the volume of the organ. My simple mind cannot handle the multi-tasking.

zombo.com

[oldguystudent]

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

Thank you! I was just looking for that, but couldn't remember where I'd seen it.

[Cerebus]

November 15, 2013

Dear UNT Community,

This week, there have been pockets of discussion on campus about the necessity of beginning to directly fund staff benefit costs related to library personnel. And there now is a call to “Save the UNT libraries.” While I appreciate the important sentiment of this call, I need to emphasize that it is highly premature. While there is in fact an ongoing funding issue with how library staff benefits are funded, there have not yet been any specific discussions within the Division of Academic Affairs about options for how this will be addressed.

I want to assure everyone that UNT’s libraries are an extraordinarily valuable asset to our academic community, and they are central to our continued growth in providing the highest quality education and conducting cutting edge research. I’m actually very impressed with the reaffirmation of the libraries’ value by those of you who have quickly moved to “save the UNT libraries”. However, I ask that you provide Dean Martin Halbert, our other deans and myself the time to determine the best way to handle library funding. I further assure you that I will keep you informed about what is being done, and when.

As always, if you have would like to reply to this message, just hit the “Reply” button (not “Reply All”).

Best,

Warren Burggren

UNT Provost

[meangreenthirteen]

November 15, 2013

Dear UNT Community,

This week, there have been pockets of discussion on campus about the necessity of beginning to directly fund staff benefit costs related to library personnel. And there now is a call to “Save the UNT libraries.” While I appreciate the important sentiment of this call, I need to emphasize that it is highly premature. While there is in fact an ongoing funding issue with how library staff benefits are funded, there have not yet been any specific discussions within the Division of Academic Affairs about options for how this will be addressed.

I want to assure everyone that UNT’s libraries are an extraordinarily valuable asset to our academic community, and they are central to our continued growth in providing the highest quality education and conducting cutting edge research. I’m actually very impressed with the reaffirmation of the libraries’ value by those of you who have quickly moved to “save the UNT libraries”. However, I ask that you provide Dean Martin Halbert, our other deans and myself the time to determine the best way to handle library funding. I further assure you that I will keep you informed about what is being done, and when.

As always, if you have would like to reply to this message, just hit the “Reply” button (not “Reply All”).

Best,

Warren Burggren

UNT Provost

"lol calm down"

-Warren Burggren

[forevereagle]

November 15, 2013

Dear UNT Community,

This week, there have been pockets of discussion on campus about the necessity of beginning to directly fund staff benefit costs related to library personnel. And there now is a call to “Save the UNT libraries.” While I appreciate the important sentiment of this call, I need to emphasize that it is highly premature. While there is in fact an ongoing funding issue with how library staff benefits are funded, there have not yet been any specific discussions within the Division of Academic Affairs about options for how this will be addressed.

I want to assure everyone that UNT’s libraries are an extraordinarily valuable asset to our academic community, and they are central to our continued growth in providing the highest quality education and conducting cutting edge research. I’m actually very impressed with the reaffirmation of the libraries’ value by those of you who have quickly moved to “save the UNT libraries”. However, I ask that you provide Dean Martin Halbert, our other deans and myself the time to determine the best way to handle library funding. I further assure you that I will keep you informed about what is being done, and when.

As always, if you have would like to reply to this message, just hit the “Reply” button (not “Reply All”).

Best,

Warren Burggren

UNT Provost

[sarcasm]I disagree with this, there is no room in this discussion for thoughtful and logical discourse paired with careful and planned action. We must shut down everything else that I don't like and use that money to fund the library! Act now![sarcasm]

[meangreener]

How did a lot of these people get into college? They look and act like fools on this Facebook thread. Slacktivism at its finest.

[oldguystudent]

How did a lot of these people get into college?

65% (2010)

University of North Texas, Acceptance rate

My experience in the business school is that they would admit anybody, then give them rope to hang themselves with after a couple semesters of failing.

Edited November 15, 2013 by oldguystudent

[JesseMartin]

Folks, many of you are commenting on "knee jerk" student comments that position the library vs. football. There's absolutely no real connection between the two, and the library administration is not making such a case.

Pretty sure we already covered that when pointing out that the library staff, etc. are too smart to make such dumb arguments and that it's all students and parents. So really we all agree.

That note from Burggren is funny though. "Let us handle it..." like anyone else being involved is somehow what screwed it up...if they later come out and ask for donor help, etc., should we all say no because they wanted to handle it without anyone else?

[jazzer88]

The provost's letter is a direct response to public outcry. Believe me, he would have never responded so quickly if there wasn't a growing movement. Nevertheless, the Provost never states that the cuts aren't mandated, they are, it's just a question have how they will affect the library. Right now, it appears that the administration is beginning to muddy the waters so the PR damage can be minimal. I know this topic isn't football related, but you folks know better than most the hurt that comes with supporting a university that appears not to return that support.

[untjim1995]

I think most of Denton and the majority of UNT faculty and teachers feel the way that those have spoken out loudly and absurdly about this stuff regarding athletics. When you have focused on education, music, and art, you're gonna have this stuff pop up. Not one other school in this state would run into these people and their anti-athletic cause. Not UT, A&M, Tech, Baylor, TCU, SMU, UTEP, UTSA, Texas State, UH, Rice, SFA, SHSU, etc...

Please, folks, don't let this turn into a repeat of

the late 70s again, where we make it abundantly clear that athletics shouldn't even get decent funding. We lost Hayden Fry, I-A football, and generations of money-giving alumni that love and fund Longhorn, Aggie, Sooner, etc...football instead of ours. Don't cost us Coach Mac because of this North Texas State Teachers College mentality!!

[northtexassigep]

^It's up to us to let our voices be heard and make sure that doesn't happen. What I've noticed about the people who are usually against athletics is that they let everyone know about their opinions. It's time unt knows there are a good amount of students and alumni who are in full support of the athletic programs and Apogee stadium. Also it doesn't hurt that we are going to win conference this year in football.

[Rudy]

Hey, we can play football in the library, but we'll probably damage their precious microfilm.

[meangreener]

I think most of Denton and the majority of UNT faculty and teachers feel the way that those have spoken out loudly and absurdly about this stuff regarding athletics. When you have focused on education, music, and art, you're gonna have this stuff pop up. Not one other school in this state would run into these people and their anti-athletic cause. Not UT, A&M, Tech, Baylor, TCU, SMU, UTEP, UTSA, Texas State, UH, Rice, SFA, SHSU, etc...

Please, folks, don't let this turn into a repeat of

the late 70s again, where we make it abundantly clear that athletics shouldn't even get decent funding. We lost Hayden Fry, I-A football, and generations of money-giving alumni that love and fund Longhorn, Aggie, Sooner, etc...football instead of ours. Don't cost us Coach Mac because of this North Texas State Teachers College mentality!!

26K last week care.

Hopefully 30k this week care.

Looks like they're in the minority now. They may speak louder, but the fact remains.

I worry that they're only going to get louder and more opinionated now that the team is better and attracting fans because things are no longer going their way.

Edited November 16, 2013 by meangreener

[JesseMartin]

Hey, we can play football in the library, but we'll probably damage their precious microfilm.

Does anyone still use microfilm/microfiche? I remember how from a LONG time ago but haven't needed to even look for it in a long time either.

Anyway...I'd almost be inclined to let some of these web savants spout their ignorance unanswered, since debating them isn't likely to convert any...but I just don't want their blabbering to spread misinformation among currently neutral parties.

[oldguystudent]

Hey, we can play football in the library, but we'll probably damage their precious microfilm.

Isn't that where the first stadium was located? Perhaps they're still bitter?

[RushnStudies]

untjim1995, I'm gonna disagree with you on the "not one other school in Texas would have this issue." UH absolutely did when I was in school- constantly- and again in the late 90s. And when John and Rebecca Moores made a very, very large donation (sometime around 1992?), there was plenty of debate about how that would best be allocated; luckily, some of that donation came with instructions from the donors. I am not as connected at this moment with current campus and alumni sentiment there, quite frankly because I have had my head in my current school and my thesis, but while I can tell that support for the athletic program has improved dramatically over time, it would not surprise me one bit for the "academics versus athletics" argument to pop up again.

And now... Meeting time... *stands up* Hello, my name is Rushn, and I use microfilm... Some sources for my thesis just haven't been converted into digital media yet. I have had more contact with library staff at UNT over the past one year than I did in my entire undergraduate endeavor at UH. We have some fantastic library personnel and I cannot thank the Inter-Library Loan office and our departmental research advisor enough for putting up with me.

I support our athletics and our library. I'll bet our administration does, too.

[Cerebus]

Does anyone still use microfilm/microfiche? I remember how from a LONG time ago but haven't needed to even look for it in a long time either.

Of course. There are tons and tons of un-digitized material, and no real plans or money to ever digitize it. I by no plans or money I don't mean the UNT Libraries, I mean anyone/anywhere.

You want the 1855 Texas county by county tax polls of slave holders? Better bust out the MF machine.

[RushnStudies]

Yup. There has been great progress in digitizing many historical documents, but there's still a long, long way to go.