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On 3/22/2022 at 9:49 AM, HoustonEagle said:

Maybe so but nothing you said exempts Putin from blame nor makes his decision to invade a non-threatening soverign nation somehow palatable.

As an aside. I would be willing to bet my life savings that Putin and Trump had an agreement that Russia would not go into Ukraine until after he won a second term.  Going in before would almost assuredly mean Trump would lose the election.  Still there is no way to prove that so it's just conjecture on my part.  

Putin was waiting for Trump to pull us out of NATO in his 2nd term. 

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30 minutes ago, southsideguy said:

wonder how long we will watch women in children get killed by that dog Putin.

Probably about as long as the rest of NATO does.   When it comes to Iraq & Afghanistan, we can make unilateral decisions.  When it comes to nuclear-armed Russia, we cannot.

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1 minute ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Probably about as long as the rest of NATO does.   When it comes to Iraq & Afghanistan, we can make unilateral decisions.  When it comes to nuclear-armed Russia, we cannot.

I get the frustration, but you gotta keep it all in perspective. Afghanistan was not unilateral, and Iraq was an illegal war, and neither of those countries were nuclear powers either. Putin is unhinged so even an air strike against Russian targets or something similar would possibly see him launch a nuke that could wipe out an entire city. It might spell the end of him and/or his government, but that doesn't mean he won't do it. 

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6 minutes ago, Coffee and TV said:

I get the frustration, but you gotta keep it all in perspective. Afghanistan was not unilateral, and Iraq was an illegal war, and neither of those countries were nuclear powers either. Putin is unhinged so even an air strike against Russian targets or something similar would possibly see him launch a nuke that could wipe out an entire city. It might spell the end of him and/or his government, but that doesn't mean he won't do it. 

This is likely why the European NATO partners aren't engaging, and won't engage... which means we won't (and shouldn't) either.     
As Americans, we wouldn't really need to worry about Putin's nukes over here.  We have interceptor missile systems to take care of those before they even got close to their targets (however, reports are out saying they're using hypersonic missiles in Ukraine, and if they're able to slap a nuke warhead on one of those, we may be in trouble).

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6 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

This is likely why the European NATO partners aren't engaging, and won't engage... which means we won't (and shouldn't) either.     
As Americans, we wouldn't really need to worry about Putin's nukes over here.  We have interceptor missile systems to take care of those before they even got close to their targets (however, reports are out saying they're using hypersonic missiles in Ukraine, and if they're able to slap a nuke warhead on one of those, we may be in trouble).

Right, but NATO is an alliance treaty, ideally we don't want Berlin or Prague wiped off the map any more than we do DFW or Pittsburgh. 

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3 minutes ago, Coffee and TV said:

Right, but NATO is an alliance treaty, ideally we don't want Berlin or Prague wiped off the map any more than we do DFW or Pittsburgh. 

Of course.  We're in agreement here.    As Americans, it's easy for us to sit over here completely buffered from it all and call for arms against the atrocities we're seeing.   For Germany/UK/France, it's not so simple.

Just wondering if, at some point, some of those countries will decide to do more than sanctions.  Not sure where that line is, but Putin is surely loose enough to cross it, wherever/whenever that is.   You already have countries like Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania & Poland who are chomping at the bit to supply arms of all kinds to Ukraine.  I wonder if those countries would love nothing more than to jump into war in order to get rid of a very real thread directly across the border?

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  • 1 month later...
Quote

Biden's actions and words make it clear our goal is to cripple Russia economically and militarily. Russia’s made it clear that if the West gets close to achieving that, they’ll resort to nukes. Biden has put us on a path to nuclear Armageddon. We need to wake up before it’s too late. - former Democratic Representative and Presidential Candidate Tulsi Gabbard

That may be overstated, but I believe that the U.S. needs to have a stated goal of only having Russia vacate Ukraine, pay reparations for damages, and hold accountable anyone proven to be involved in committing war crimes. I do agree that Biden's incredible stupidity is making this horrible situation much worse than it should be.

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On 3/23/2022 at 3:54 PM, MeanGreenTexan said:

Of course.  We're in agreement here.    As Americans, it's easy for us to sit over here completely buffered from it all and call for arms against the atrocities we're seeing.   For Germany/UK/France, it's not so simple.

Just wondering if, at some point, some of those countries will decide to do more than sanctions.  Not sure where that line is, but Putin is surely loose enough to cross it, wherever/whenever that is.   You already have countries like Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania & Poland who are chomping at the bit to supply arms of all kinds to Ukraine.  I wonder if those countries would love nothing more than to jump into war in order to get rid of a very real thread directly across the border?

It would be nice to see other countries do more than sanctions.  The isolationist theory that many nations want to practice will make things worse.

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2 hours ago, Rudy said:

It would be nice to see other countries do more than sanctions.  The isolationist theory that many nations want to practice will make things worse.

I hate to use a Mussolini analogy, but the chicken's feathers are slowly being plucked in Russia. And this is assuming that Putin is in good enough health to see this thing through, because there's evidence he's possibly not. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2022/03/05/russians-fleeing-as-nation-faces-economic-collapse/?sh=63321a370897

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1 hour ago, Coffee and TV said:

I hate to use a Mussolini analogy, but the chicken's feathers are slowly being plucked in Russia. And this is assuming that Putin is in good enough health to see this thing through, because there's evidence he's possibly not. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2022/03/05/russians-fleeing-as-nation-faces-economic-collapse/?sh=63321a370897

And there are some stories that some in-line behind him are even more hard liners

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14 hours ago, El Paso Eagle said:

And there are some stories that some in-line behind him are even more hard liners

Of course he's going to surround himself with 'yes-men'.  It's what people like him do.   
But if the people of Russia decide to get rid of him, they're not just going to promote one of his lieutenants.   
Navalny has a ton of support there.   It probably wouldn't be him either, but someone in-between.

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On 3/23/2022 at 3:37 PM, MeanGreenTexan said:

As Americans, we wouldn't really need to worry about Putin's nukes over here.  We have interceptor missile systems to take care of those before they even got close to their targets (however, reports are out saying they're using hypersonic missiles in Ukraine, and if they're able to slap a nuke warhead on one of those, we may be in trouble).

This thread has some really good discussion. As someone who does work in this area, I should emphasize that the U.S. does not have a missile defense system capable of defending the American homeland from the Russian nuclear arsenal. The U.S. has a very limited capacity system based in CA & AK that might be capable of providing some protection against a very small (single digits) ICBM attack against the U.S., but even there, there is no guarantee. In fact, the one thing that would sharply increase the risk of a Russian nuclear attack against the U.S. would be a Russian belief that the U.S. was soon to implement a missile defense system capable of securing the American homeland against Russia's arsenal. As grim as it sounds, the U.S. and Russia (and, before that, the Soviet Union) have tacitly agreed to hold one another's cities hostage with nuclear weapons to prevent nuclear war.

I only mention this because it explains some of the tightrope that the U.S. has attempted to walk in responding to Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

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3 minutes ago, chomp said:

This thread has some really good discussion. As someone who does work in this area, I should emphasize that the U.S. does not have a missile defense system capable of defending the American homeland from the Russian nuclear arsenal. The U.S. has a very limited capacity system based in CA & AK that might be capable of providing some protection against a very small (single digits) ICBM attack against the U.S., but even there, there is no guarantee. In fact, the one thing that would sharply increase the risk of a Russian nuclear attack against the U.S. would be a Russian belief that the U.S. was soon to implement a missile defense system capable of securing the American homeland against Russia's arsenal. As grim as it sounds, the U.S. and Russia (and, before that, the Soviet Union) have tacitly agreed to hold one another's cities hostage with nuclear weapons to prevent nuclear war.

I only mention this because it explains some of the tightrope that the U.S. has attempted to walk in responding to Russia's invasion of Ukraine.

GIF-gulp-hold-breath-holding-breath-jell

 

Uh,  I trust you, but man I hope you're wrong and that we secretly have more.

On the bright side, our pals in the Ukraine are actually showing us quite a bit about the capabilities of Russia's military (or lack thereof).

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