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DRC Sunday column: Guiding UNT to bowl shows why Seth Littrell is great fit with Mean Green


Brett Vito
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3 minutes ago, UNTcrazy727 said:

Pot meet kettle. 

"Littrell can't beat winning programs."

*UNT beats undefeated, ranked UTSA*

"Well it was raining so that win doesn't count."

I clearly stated that the UTSA win was our only quality win. Just because I pointed out that we had advantages in that game doesn't discount the fact that it was a quality win.

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14 minutes ago, GrandGreen said:

Well I guess I am old-new Denton.

Because I accept and agree Littrell should coach NT next year, but I am not happy about the last three year record.

Your definition than is essentially old Denton is what you disagree with and new Denton is how you think it should be. 

 

It's not about agreeing with me. It's about having an actual standard and holding people accountable. There are plenty of people on this board and in our fan base that have different expectations for success, but are New Denton. The point is they have standards. Old Denton is just way too content with mediocrity.

Edited by Side.Show.Joe
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The link below shows the W/L percentages of every UNT Head Football Coach in our history.  It’s really worth mulling over & thinking about.  
   
In my 5 decades of observing (too closely) this football program I’ve come to my own conclusion for now on SL, but keep in mind that at 1 & 6 many of us thought a search for a new HFC at North Texas would make perfect sense.  Like many of you, though,  I’ve changed my mind. (Winning changes minds & cures cancer).   
••• What Littrell has changed is his Defensive Coordinator, his offensive philosophy which slobber’knocked  a #15 ranked football team plus a recruiting game plan that appears will be 50/50; that is half HS recruits & half regular transfers & portal transfers.

•••SL’s youth movement (which includes a Freshmen All American)  proves to me those highly ranked CUSA 247 annual  recruiting lists which UNT finished high or at the very top may have been close to spot on?  
I think UNT will finish high again in CUSA’s cumulative recruiting lists after this next February signings, too. 

••• Didn’t Darrell Dickey’s 4 NO’s Bowl seasons start out similarly as this season’s 1 & 6?  

••• OK, SL is no Williams Jennings Bryan of an “ear-tickling” orator, but neither was Tom Landry. I’d rather not have to listen to a media motor mouth who I think most on GMG would tire of quickly.  (At UNT it seems we most always want the opposite of what we got).🤢

  ••• If UNT could ever put a string of winning seasons together (4 or more) I think most would accept a coach at UNT & Denton that would be both deaf & mute. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_North_Texas_Mean_Green_head_football_coaches#List_of_head_coaches

Edited by PlummMeanGreen
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31 minutes ago, Side.Show.Joe said:

The way I see it, your faction wants it divided. I'm not ignoring the first half of Littrell's tenure. I count all of those bowl losses, and the zero conference titles he won at that time too.

We have a different standard of success. Nothing is going to change that.

Those who forget the Dodge days are destined to repeat them. We have a coach on 5 game winning streak with THIS team. A coach that has the best record of any coach we have had in the last 40 years. A coach with a division title you refuse to acknowledge. The whole point of this is winning. Littrell is winning right now but you want to ignore that because he didn’t win up to your standard for 2.5 years.

The problem is the risk involved. Yes, we could fire a coach on a 5 game winning streak on the hope, and yes that is all that is guaranteed is hope, that he MIGHT be better than our statistically best coach over the last 40 years. There is a strong chance the replacement could actually be worse. Nobody wants to extend Littrell but I, and many like me, want to see this momentum play out. If we suck next year, we have wasted a year and have a chance to start a new conference with a new coach. Conversely, we could grenade this whole deal and if the new coach is actually worse (and that is a real possibility) we have set ourselves back AT LEAST 4 years. We need to look at the risk/reward of this whole deal and the situation has changed a lot since October which needs to be considered.

Maybe being cautious makes me #oldDenton but I’d rather be that than risk going back to the Dodge days because we have increased expectations. Increased expectations that Littrell himself helped make possible. 

Edited by Cr1028
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I mean I know everyone likes to bitch and moan about UTSA as a rival but in the same season they went from getting booed off the field at home to absolutely manhandling and embarrassing an undefeated top 20 ranked rival at home to end the season and get to a bowl game. Just want to make sure we are talking about the same win here.

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2 hours ago, Side.Show.Joe said:

It's pathetic to justify mediocrity. If Littrell is back next season, it will be a very divided fan base and board.

Oh no! I'd hate to see a ton of weirdly personal and esoteric skirmishes break out among the message board crowd. Unheard of and possibly something we'd never come back from.

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2 minutes ago, texx2818 said:

Is this really a serious debate about the best win in UNT’s history? Because statistically it is.

Have you ever taken an almost dead mouse away from a cat that has been playing with it and torturing it rather than quickly killing it and eating it? The cat gets real annoyed with you and bitches and moans incessantly until you either give it back or get rid of it out of the cats sight. 

This is kind of what is going on. SL is the mouse, but instead of someone snatching him away from the sadistic cat, he gets away by his own behavior (he finally figured out how to get away).  Which In this case, is the five game winning streak. But the bitching and moaning is still happening. 

From my experience, the "old Denton" would be reluctant to fire a coach, while the "new Denton" seems to like to change coaches almost every year.

And the weather conditions for the UTSA game were not pouring rain. It was cool to cold and drizzling. Perfectly miserable conditions if you are used to "climate control", but still manageable. 

SL has never been a head coach before taking the job at NT. Could it be that he is finally figuring it out? OR, could it be that he was lucky enough to have PB agree to be on staff and providing him that which has been missing for most of his 6 year tenure.

 

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2 hours ago, UNT 90 Grad said:

Phil didn’t transition us to a top 5rushing offense, but I agree the defense was a huge improvement this year.  Kudos to Littrell for bringing Bennett on board.  

Bennett’s maturity, experience, and presence had a positive effect on this “whole” team and Littrell. Don’t think for a minute it didn’t. 

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36 minutes ago, greenminer said:

You don’t keep SL for 2022 because you accept 6-6, you do it because you have reason to believe the current version of the team will win 8-10 games.  Get better play at the QB position and we win 10-12.

Y’all don’t believe the team that won 5 I a row is much different from the team that was losing.  I get it. The competition was not good.  But I saw a team that found itself and clearly looked more physical, and not just because the losing teams were lesser. I see confidence and identity that wasn’t there before.

Vegas has already decided our program's current value.  Even with all the new-found magic formula SL revealed in the second half of the season, and a home Bowl game ahead, the college football experts say UNT is still 3 points below a 6-6 MAC team.  Vegas says we still suck.  

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1 minute ago, NT80 said:

Vegas has already decided our program's current value.  Even with all the new-found magic formula SL revealed in the second half of the season, and a home Bowl game ahead, the college football experts say UNT is still 3 points below a 6-6 MAC team.  Vegas says we still suck.  
 

 

What were the Vegas numbers going into UTSA?

They have zero insight into us right now.

might be interesting to look at historical numbers, profiling major turnarounds in CFB and see how the Vegas numbers followed game-by-game over the course of 2-3 seasons.

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1 hour ago, Cr1028 said:

Those who forget the Dodge days are destined to repeat them. 1. We have a coach on 5 game winning streak with THIS team. 2. A coach that has the best record of any coach we have had in the last 40 years. A coach with a 3. division title you refuse to acknowledge. The whole point of this is winning. Littrell is winning right now but 4. you want to ignore that because he didn’t win up to your standard for 2.5 years.

The problem is the risk involved. Yes, we could fire a coach on a 5 game winning streak on the hope, and yes that is all that is guaranteed is hope, that he MIGHT be better than our statistically best coach over the last 40 years. There is a strong chance the replacement could actually be worse. Nobody wants to extend Littrell but I, and many like me, want to see this momentum play out. 5. If we suck next year, we have wasted a year and have a chance to start a new conference with a new coach. Conversely, we could grenade this whole deal and if the new coach is actually worse (and that is a real possibility) we have set ourselves back AT LEAST 4 years. We need to look at the risk/reward of this whole deal and the situation has changed a lot since October which needs to be considered.

6. Maybe being cautious makes me #oldDenton but I’d rather be that than 7. risk going back to the Dodge days because we have increased expectations. 8. Increased expectations that Littrell himself helped make possible. 

1. A 5 game winning streak against 4 bums and UTSA.

2. You are happy about a .500 record, that is why we call it old Denton. For forty years Old Denton's philosophy has dominated UNT football.

3.Division titles are not championships. Since Littrell was hired his stated expectation is to compete for championships. We still have zero of those. No conference championships and no bowl championships.

4. I'm not ignoring anything. I'm looking at the total body of work. You are choosing to ignore everything but the last 5 games.

5. The same thing was said after last season, but now Old Denton wants to move the goal posts again because Littrell is still under preforming.

6. No being content with mediocrity makes you Old Denton.

7. UNT could never go back to the Dodge days. Our athletic budget is 3 times larger than it was in the Dodge days. Dodge earned around $275,000 a season. Seth steals almost $2 million a year. Also another reason standards need to go up around here.

8.Littrell didn't raise the standards at UNT... Growing our athletic budget to $40 million did. Paying Littrell $2 million a year did. Building the new facilities did. Moving to the American did. Littrell just hasn't lived up to his stated goals.

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1 hour ago, texx2818 said:

I mean I know everyone likes to bitch and moan about UTSA as a rival but in the same season they went from getting booed off the field at home to absolutely manhandling and embarrassing an undefeated top 20 ranked rival at home to end the season and get to a bowl game. Just want to make sure we are talking about the same win here.

Agree with you.  It was a remarkable turnaround. And I felt like we could have beaten SMU if we had a QB.

UAB, La. Tech and Marshall were inexplicable and very damaging to Littrell.   Missouri and Liberty were meh.

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45 minutes ago, Side.Show.Joe said:

1. A 5 game winning streak against 4 bums and UTSA.

2. You are happy about a .500 record, that is why we call it old Denton. For forty years Old Denton's philosophy has dominated UNT football.

3.Division titles are not championships. Since Littrell was hired his stated expectation is to compete for championships. We still have zero of those. No conference championships and no bowl championships.

4. I'm not ignoring anything. I'm looking at the total body of work. You are choosing to ignore everything but the last 5 games.

5. The same thing was said after last season, but now Old Denton wants to move the goal posts again because Littrell is still under preforming.

6. No being content with mediocrity makes you Old Denton.

7. UNT could never go back to the Dodge days. Our athletic budget is 3 times larger than it was in the Dodge days. Dodge earned around $275,000 a season. Seth steals almost $2 million a year. Also another reason standards need to go up around here.

8.Littrell didn't raise the standards at UNT... Growing our athletic budget to $40 million did. Paying Littrell $2 million a year did. Building the new facilities did. Moving to the American did. Littrell just hasn't lived up to his stated goals.

Right and our competitors are still paying $275k with an anemic budget while we jumped out ahead alone? You get hung up on Littrell’s salary but that is not a qualifier for additional success. Wren paid Littrell what he thought was enough to keep him here. You would still be whining if Littrell was making $275k.

Also, either you’ve been around this program since the Odus Mitchell days or you’ve been around for ten minutes because you have either felt long term sustained football success at North Texas or you just showed up and think throwing a little cash at the problem makes it all better and have no concept of the utter disgust of being a fan during a string of 1-2 win seasons. There was a time when people were BEGGING to have a middle of the road Jeff Bower type coach just so we could be competitive and win 7-9 games. We have that now and you forgot or never felt the pain it took to get here. You operate under this false premise that we operate in a vacuum and if we add a few more resources that we should easily win championships. They call it an arms race for a reason. The programs we compete against are trying to get ahead of us just as we are of them. 

Last season should not factor in for anyone. The season was a disaster as a whole. Losing entire position groups hours before a game is a ridiculous standard to judge coaches by. You can say the goalposts moved from 2019 but using 2020 is just convenient for you and your disdain for Seth Littrell.

UNT absolutely could return to Dodge level football futility and money has nothing to do with it. Look at Texas, they spend more on their program than just about any college program in the nation and just finished maybe their worst season in the last 30 years.

Why does one more year bother you so much? This team as it sits with Littrell as coach is looking at 8 wins next season.

Edited by Cr1028
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2 hours ago, Side.Show.Joe said:

I clearly stated that the UTSA win was our only quality win. Just because I pointed out that we had advantages in that game doesn't discount the fact that it was a quality win.

No crap it's a quality win! But you and others are still trying to downplay the win because of these "advantages". Like we had no shot at winning if it wasn't raining. It's just a sad attempt to justify your agenda that Littrell shouldn't be back next year. 

Are you still going on the CUSA forum claiming the UNT fanbase is going to revolt if Littrell is brought back? Hopefully that board knows you don't speak for the fanbase and sees how downvoted you are here. 

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Look, all I’ll say is that I was about as down on this program after I convinced my entire family to come tailgate at the Marshall game and we stayed a quarter while I made a fool of myself yelling at Littrell. I vowed to never come to another game while he was around.

He then did the inexplicable. I also count UTEP as a good win, sorry, but you can’t pick and choose winning records. It’s just a winning record. The fact that people are not ready to just play wait and see next year baffles me. IMO, this is a historic turnaround and will be even better if we win Thursday. 

I don’t really care that Seth has no personality and I don’t really know what happened the first half of the season. The team looked like a Pop Warner team out there, out of place and misaligned constantly. If that was just a group of players tired of losing or a turnaround in coaching we’ll know pretty quickly next year. I hate to say “wait til next year” but the candidates aren’t very alluring right now so let’s roll the dice and see what happens.

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2 hours ago, texx2818 said:

I mean I know everyone likes to bitch and moan about UTSA as a rival but in the same season they went from getting booed off the field at home to absolutely manhandling and embarrassing an undefeated top 20 ranked rival at home to end the season and get to a bowl game. Just want to make sure we are talking about the same win here.

Welcome to the board.   Gotta think you might be a player with the offense you took.   If so, whoever you are, you took advantage of a great situation and I’m proud of you for it.  It was a great win and I loved every minute of it.  I was one of the few there cheering you on.

I’m still more proud of yalls effort/heart in the UTEP game though, as there was no excuses for their loss.

Looking forward to watching you win in Frisco as well!

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Just now, MeanGreenTexan said:

Welcome to the board.   Gotta think you might be a player with the offense you took.   If so, whoever you are, you took advantage of a great situation and I’m proud of you for it.  It was a great win and I loved every minute of it.  I was one of the few there cheering you on.

I’m still more proud of yalls effort/heart in the UTEP game though, as there was no excuses for their loss.

Looking forward to watching you win in Frisco as well!

I’m definitely not a player. Look in your deepest of hearts and you’ll know who I am.

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7 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

Right and our competitors are still paying $275k with an anemic budget while we jumped out ahead alone? You get hung up on Littrell’s salary but that is not a qualifier for additional success. Wren paid Littrell what he thought was enough to keep him here. You would still be whining if Littrell was making $275k.

Also, either you’ve been around this program since the Odus Mitchell days or you’ve been around for ten minutes because you have either felt long term sustained football success at North Texas or you just showed up and think throwing a little cash at the problem makes it all better and have no concept of the utter disgust of being a fan during a string of 1-2 win seasons. There was a time when people were BEGGING to have a middle of the road Jeff Bower type coach just so we could be competitive and win 7-9 games. We have that now and you forgot or never felt the pain it took to get here. You operate under this false premise that we operate in a vacuum and if we add a few more resources that we should easily win championships. They call it an arms race for a reason. The programs we compete against are trying to get ahead of us just as we are of them. 

Last season should not factor in for anyone. The season was a disaster as a whole. Losing entire position groups hours before a game is a ridiculous standard to judge coaches by. You can say the goalposts moved from 2019 but using 2020 is just convenient for you and your disdain for Seth Littrell.

UNT absolutely could return to Dodge level football futility and money has nothing to do with it. Look at Texas, they spend more on their program than just about any college program in the nation and just finished maybe their worst season in the last 30 years.

I've been around this program for a long time. And in the past 20 years UNT football has improved in every area... except on the field and in our expectations.  Dicky won conference titles and took us to 4 straight bowls and beat Cincinnati. Old Denton won't even hold Littrell to that standard. Since Dicky was fired, UNT ahs built Apogee and the IPF. Moved to C-USA and is now moving up to the American. Off the field, no other former Sun Belt conference-mate has come close to what UNT has done. We are winning the arms race.... but Littrell still isn't contending for conference titles. Seth Littrell is the weak link on our program. Those are just the facts. I can't help it if you don't like the truth.

Texas made a bad hire, and they are dumb for sticking with him too.

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2 minutes ago, Side.Show.Joe said:

I've been around this program for a long time. And in the past 20 years UNT football has improved in every area... except on the field and in our expectations.  Dicky won conference titles and took us to 4 straight bowls and beat Cincinnati. Old Denton won't even hold Littrell to that standard. Since Dicky was fired, UNT ahs built Apogee and the IPF. Moved to C-USA and is now moving up to the American. Off the field, no other former Sun Belt conference-mate has come close to what UNT has done. We are winning the arms race.... but Littrell still isn't contending for conference titles. Seth Littrell is the weak link on our program. Those are just the facts. I can't help it if you don't like the truth.

Texas made a bad hire, and they are dumb for sticking with him too.

Having tantrums about how we should just be able to pull a brilliant coach out of our ass isn’t productive. Who would you hire to replace Seth if Wren fired him Friday? Funny you bring up Texas because Texas just does what y’all think we should do, just with more money.

I’ll hang up and listen.

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