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Can Seth regain your support?


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2 hours ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Compared to teams we're recruiting against.   
You're wrong about the rankings.  Since Luke Walerius was hired, NT has finished at or near the top of C-USA:

https://247sports.com/Season/2019-Football/CompositeTeamRankings/?Conference=C-USA
https://247sports.com/Season/2020-Football/CompositeTeamRankings/?Conference=C-USA
https://247sports.com/Season/2021-Football/CompositeTeamRankings/?Conference=C-USA

The talent is already here.

One of the things I wonder about with our recruiting, and I will probably say this the wrong way, but are we recruiting better HS players as opposed to better players with potential for growth? It seem, at least on the surface, 3* ratings are given out more often, so the challenge is finding players who have not peaked or reached the top of their development. I know, easier said than done. 

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2 minutes ago, El Paso Eagle said:

One of the things I wonder about with our recruiting, and I will probably say this the wrong way, but are we recruiting better HS players as opposed to better players with potential for growth? It seem, at least on the surface, 3* ratings are given out more often, so the challenge is finding players who have not peaked or reached the top of their development. I know, easier said than done. 

For sure.   That's all subjective, so it's hard to see.   I mean, look at last year's lowest-rated recruit according to 247, Rod Brown.  He's out there running 2nd string behind Novil as a True Freshman, so he's a baller!

But for the sake of argument, the only tangible way you can show recruiting results are through these rankings from recruiting sites.

BillySee likes looking at the other offers each player has.  Obviously, if a player has a whole bunch of offers from G5/P5 schools, those guys are highly thought-of.  I think this is more telling than what the recruiting sites rank these guys, but it's much harder to quantify.

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4 hours ago, TheColonyEagle said:

Thing is....we don't have limited resources. Not compared to our peers. We have amazing resources. They're just kicking our butts on the field with less resources. It's all about the head coach. We have everything else. 

I don't want someone coming in there thinking we have limited resources. Thinking that way leads to "hey, 8-9 wins is amazing at a place like this....with our limited resources."

I want someone coming in here thinking "with what I have here, 10 wins should be the expectation and we should be a top 5 G5 program"

And MY POINT is that I want a coach, much like Francione, who comes to North Texas AFTER a couple of stints as head coach of a school like Rolling Hills University from Oatmeal Nebraska who, like Francione did at Pittsburg State, gave it his all as if he were shooting for the National Championship. He led Pittsburg state in five years to a 56-7 record (37-1 in conference). When he came to TCU he was 7-5 in his SECOND YEAR and beat USC in the Sun Bowl, whilst allowing the fewest yards rushing in a bowl game.  

When Corkey Nelson came to NT he won the Southland Conference in his SECOND YEAR. Not as impressive as what Francione did......but I hope you get my point.

AND after 6 years, we are still waiting for our first bowl and conference win under SL......who is the highest paid coach in NT history......AND  IMHO the most overpaid.

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7 hours ago, SilverEagle said:

I've never completely supported him. Especially after Lane Kiffin showed him and the team to be nothing more than smoke and mirrors......twice.  And then there was Troy and Utah State doing the same thing. 

Many on this board don't favor hiring someone without head coaching experience. SL seems to have proven their point.

A good example of the type of coach that we need is Dennis Franchione.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Franchione

Regardless of how anyone on this board feels about Coach Fran, you have to admit that he didn't mind working hard in humble settings.  I have always advocated for that kind of coach. Someone who doesn't mind getting his hands dirty and making the most of limited resources.  The best example for us was Corkey Nelson and his DC Chuck Mills. They were pretty much a perfect pair. Whatever Corkey lacked, Coach Mills seems to make up for it.  Much like coach Fran 

Franchione is old AF. We don't need a senior citizen roaming the sidelines. How is he going to recruit one of these tic tok kids? I coached Texas A&M when you were born.
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5 hours ago, TheColonyEagle said:

I don't want someone coming in there thinking we have limited resources. Thinking that way leads to "hey, 8-9 wins is amazing at a place like this....with our limited i want someone coming in here thinking "with what I have here, 10 wins should be the expectation and we should be a top 5 G5 program.

This would be that man but instead we’ll end up with another inexperienced coordinator or P5 flameout.

Love this guy.

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7 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

This would be that man but instead we’ll end up with another inexperienced coordinator or P5 flameout.

Love this guy.

Dominated at A&M-Commerce.  He has a 12-16 record at SFA over the last 2.5yrs.    
 

I would be extremely underwhelmed at this hire.  We can do much better.

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It's not impossible for Seth Littrell to regain the support of Mean Green Nation.

UNT could win out and be 6-2 in conference and 8-4 overall.

It's not remotely likely to happen, of course, but I'd rather hope for that than root for more misery this year in the hopes that Wren Baker will plant a boot in his backside.

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30 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Dominated at A&M-Commerce.  He has a 12-16 record at SFA over the last 2.5yrs.    
 

I would be extremely underwhelmed at this hire.  We can do much better.

I think when you look at what he came into at SFA and how they played last season and this year he has them improving. Is also someone who it seems has the UNT job high on his list of where he would like to be. I think he could a a "Holtz like" coach.

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1 hour ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Dominated at A&M-Commerce.  He has a 12-16 record at SFA over the last 2.5yrs.    
 

I would be extremely underwhelmed at this hire.  We can do much better.

This year he has 3 losses by a combined 11 points. 4 point losses to both Texas Tech and Jacksonville State(who beat Florida State this season), and a 1 point loss to defending national champion Sam Houston who is on a 16-game win streak. The narrow loss was the only game of the young season that Sam hasn’t won by double digits. Not too mention that he lost 6 of his 16 losses were to FBS schools. He is 9-2 against sub-FBS competition over the past 2 seasons.

Edited by Cr1028
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4 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

This year he has 3 losses by a combined 11 points. 4 point losses to both Texas Tech and Jacksonville State(who beat Florida State this season), and a 1 point loss to defending national champion Sam Houston who is on a 16-game win streak. The narrow loss was the only game of the young season that Sam hasn’t won by double digits.

His wife is the Volleyball coach at SFA so I guess we would need to hire her also 😇

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11 minutes ago, El Paso Eagle said:

His wife is the Volleyball coach at SFA so I guess we would need to hire her also 😇

I like how he refers to her as his smoking hot wife and how he references different food places around the state while recruiting and says “if you can’t be a big-time coach, be a big coach”. He’s just very down to earth. 

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2 hours ago, SilverEagle said:

And MY POINT is that I want a coach, much like Francione, who comes to North Texas AFTER a couple of stints as head coach of a school like Rolling Hills University from Oatmeal Nebraska who, like Francione did at Pittsburg State, gave it his all as if he were shooting for the National Championship. He led Pittsburg state in five years to a 56-7 record (37-1 in conference). When he came to TCU he was 7-5 in his SECOND YEAR and beat USC in the Sun Bowl, whilst allowing the fewest yards rushing in a bowl game.  

When Corkey Nelson came to NT he won the Southland Conference in his SECOND YEAR. Not as impressive as what Francione did......but I hope you get my point.

AND after 6 years, we are still waiting for our first bowl and conference win under SL......who is the highest paid coach in NT history......AND  IMHO the most overpaid.

Franchione's early career was unbelievable.  But I can't ignore everything since 2000.  Admire him all you want, he was 71-71 his final 142 games, and that wizardry he worked at his early stops didn't reveal itself at TxState.

Given our budget and resources, how would potential conference mates view us if we ended up choosing him to replace SL?  I can't imagine the optics of that hire doing us any favors.

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I am concerned that the university will not spend what it takes to bring in a decent coach, and give them control of the program.  I am worried that what ever deal they make to get rid of Littrell will impact what kind of deal they could offer a potential next coach. 

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I see no path for Seth in Year 6.  

When he turned down the Kansas State job I’m sure a few of us uttered under our breath—“you should have taken the job.”

  I told a fellow alum 2 years ago Seth has no fire in his belly since he turned down the KSU job.  Obviously, I don’t think his good salary or the new Indoor Practice Facility changed that for him, either.  

Trying to remember the last time a UNT HFC left Denton a happy camper.  It’s uncanny to me how there can be a Coastal Carolina & Liberty who show long-standing & traditional G5 schools how quickly all this can be done at a ranked level & then I think of schools who are still stuck in their “100 year plan.”  

 I mentioned to another alum recently that after 48 years of this I’m disgusted by how I feel our school has squandered this athletic program by a comedy of errors-filled poor hirings of too many D2 level talent (from top to bottom) & all that for a school with D1 (FBS) ambitions.  

AD Wren Baker, President Neal Smatresk, the BOR’s, the Loveless & McNatt families & others give many hope.  We have to get the next hiring right, though. This will be Wren’s first HFC hire.  He didn’t do bad with the basketball coach hire. 

🍿

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3 hours ago, PlummMeanGreen said:

I see no path for Seth in Year 6.  

When he turned down the Kansas State job I’m sure a few of us uttered under our breath—“you should have taken the job.”

  I told a fellow alum 2 years ago Seth has no fire in his belly since he turned down the KSU job.  Obviously, I don’t think his good salary or the new Indoor Practice Facility changed that for him, either.  

Trying to remember the last time a UNT HFC left Denton a happy camper.  It’s uncanny to me how there can be a Coastal Carolina & Liberty who show long-standing & traditional G5 schools how quickly all this can be done at a ranked level & then I think of schools who are still stuck in their “100 year plan.”  

 I mentioned to another alum recently that after 48 years of this I’m disgusted by how I feel our school has squandered this athletic program by a comedy of errors-filled poor hirings of too many D2 level talent (from top to bottom) & all that for a school with D1 (FBS) ambitions.  

AD Wren Baker, President Neal Smatresk, the BOR’s, the Loveless & McNatt families & others give many hope.  We have to get the next hiring right, though. This will be Wren’s first HFC hire.  He didn’t do bad with the basketball coach hire. 

🍿

This is probably the best thing written about this mess.

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On 10/12/2021 at 7:49 PM, jtm0097 said:
Franchione is old AF. We don't need a senior citizen roaming the sidelines. How is he going to recruit one of these tic tok kids? I coached Texas A&M when you were born.

 

On 10/12/2021 at 10:12 PM, greenminer said:

Franchione's early career was unbelievable.  But I can't ignore everything since 2000.  Admire him all you want, he was 71-71 his final 142 games, and that wizardry he worked at his early stops didn't reveal itself at TxState.

Given our budget and resources, how would potential conference mates view us if we ended up choosing him to replace SL?  I can't imagine the optics of that hire doing us any favors.

I'm going to say this again. Please understand what I am saying this time. 

We need someone coming in LIKE Francione was. Maybe I should have said "Like Francione was when he was very hungry and took the job @  New Mexico". I never suggested that we go lure him out of retirement.  Corkey Nelson is another example. That guy was hungry.  He was a meat eater. Too bad the administration that hired him was always on a diet of cucumber sandwiches. 

Can you imagine the Corkey Nelson of 1982 with the current resources and administrative support? How about the Dennis Francione who was about to take the New Mexico job? How about hiring the next Matt Rhule (when he was coaching various positions @ Western Carolina). How about hiring the next Coach Traylor.

For godsakes Law Enforcement has been able to profile serial killers for decides.  Why can't we profile the next Coach Francione, Nelson, Rhule, or Traylor on their way up to take over our football program?

On 10/12/2021 at 11:44 PM, MrAlien said:

I am concerned that the university will not spend what it takes to bring in a decent coach, and give them control of the program.  I am worried that what ever deal they make to get rid of Littrell will impact what kind of deal they could offer a potential next coach. 

The University already has......and they spent entirely too much on Mr. Smoke and Mirrors.

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5 minutes ago, SilverEagle said:

 

I'm going to say this again. Please understand what I am saying this time. 

We need someone coming in LIKE Francione was. Maybe I should have said "Like Francione was when he was very hungry and took the job @  New Mexico". I never suggested that we go lure him out of retirement.  Corkey Nelson is another example. That guy was hungry.  He was a meat eater. Too bad the administration that hired him was always on a diet of cucumber sandwiches. 

Can you imagine the Corkey Nelson of 1982 with the current resources and administrative support? How about the Dennis Francione who was about to take the New Mexico job? How about hiring the next Matt Rhule (when he was coaching various positions @ Western Carolina). How about hiring the next Coach Traylor.

For godsakes Law Enforcement has been able to profile serial killers for decides.  Why can't we profile the next Coach Francione, Nelson, Rhule, or Traylor on their way up to take over our football program?

The University already has......and they spent entirely too much on Mr. Smoke and Mirrors.

I think in late 2018, we all thought our current guy was the guy like Fran you're talking about.  A hungry guy on his way up!  It really sucks what happened to Coach Littrell.

I don't know that he was/is smoke & mirrors.   I think he has coaching ability.
I honestly think something changed in him though.  Sometime between those negotiations in December 2018, and early in the 2019 season. 
I really think he's beaten now.   Just going through motions.  No fire anymore.  That's why some people on GMG.com call him "mumbles".  Just low-energy & beaten.  Definitely not the same guy jumping around on the sidelines in 2017.

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9 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

I think in late 2018, we all thought our current guy was the guy like Fran you're talking about.  A hungry guy on his way up!  It really sucks what happened to Coach Littrell.

I don't know that he was/is smoke & mirrors.   I think he has coaching ability.
I honestly think something changed in him though.  Sometime between those negotiations in December 2018, and early in the 2019 season. 
I really think he's beaten now.   Just going through motions.  No fire anymore.  That's why some people on GMG.com call him "mumbles".  Just low-energy & beaten.  Definitely not the same guy jumping around on the sidelines in 2017.

Great post. It's easy to forget that we thought Seth was the man! Many were hoping we could keep him as long as possible. I do not know what happened. I think he really thought he could outscore anyone he went against and did not seem to worry too much about defense and special teams. When that didn't happen he lost some of his fire. 

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On 10/12/2021 at 9:01 PM, El Paso Eagle said:

I think when you look at what he came into at SFA and how they played last season and this year he has them improving. Is also someone who it seems has the UNT job high on his list of where he would like to be. I think he could a a "Holtz like" coach.

Coach Conque left a dumpster fire at SFA so Carthel is rebuilding in one of the toughest FCS conferences in the country

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11 minutes ago, El Paso Eagle said:

Great post. It's easy to forget that we thought Seth was the man! Many were hoping we could keep him as long as possible. I do not know what happened. I think he really thought he could outscore anyone he went against and did not seem to worry too much about defense and special teams. When that didn't happen he lost some of his fire. 

I don't think he felt that way.   
I remember his comments when he hired Coach Reff, saying he wanted a defensive style that gives him fits to coach against offensively, and Coach Reff's 3-3-5 was it.  He put a lot of faith in Reff, and we've yet to see a better defense under him than 2018's (which only gave up 26 more yds/gm than the great defense of 2013!), including this year's under Bennett.
 
And a lot of his very best recruiting (at least 247 grade rankings wise) came on the defensive side of the ball.

I don't know what happened, but it's sad.  I think it's correct to say it took 99% of us by surprise, and I don't think it's repairable. 

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35 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

I think in late 2018, we all thought our current guy was the guy like Fran you're talking about.  A hungry guy on his way up!  It really sucks what happened to Coach Littrell.

I don't know that he was/is smoke & mirrors.   I think he has coaching ability.
I honestly think something changed in him though.  Sometime between those negotiations in December 2018, and early in the 2019 season. 
I really think he's beaten now.   Just going through motions.  No fire anymore.  That's why some people on GMG.com call him "mumbles".  Just low-energy & beaten.  Definitely not the same guy jumping around on the sidelines in 2017.

 

Coach Smoke and mirrors path to NT.

2002–2004 Kansas (GA)
2005–2008 Texas Tech (RB)
2009 Arizona (RB/TE)
2010 Arizona (Co-OC/RB/TE)
2011 Arizona (OC/RB/TE)
2012–2013 Indiana (OC/FB/TE)
2014–2015 North Carolina (AHC/OC/TE)
2016–present North Texas

 

Coach Franchiones Path to New Mexico......and above

1973–1974 Miller HS (MO)
1975 Mulvane HS (KS) (assistant)
1976–1977 Peabody-Burns HS (KS)
1978–1980 Kansas State (assistant)
1981–1982 Southwestern (KS)
1983–1984 Tennessee Tech (OC)
1985–1989 Pittsburg State
1990–1991 Southwest Texas State

 

Notice the difference? Coach Fran had extensive head coaching experience before getting to the next level. Coach "smoke and mirrors" has not.

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