DEFUNDING THE POLICE

[El Paso Eagle]

2 hours ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

I'm not sure I understand how this would be implemented.

Police departments have finite budgets.  If money will be taken from them to fund other programs, will current officers be terminated in order to backfill their position with a Mental Health specialist, Social Work specialist, other specialists?    Will it be a one-for-one?   If so, will these specialists be on-call 24/7?  Who would take that position?  What happens when these specialists go on a vacation & some crisis happens?  In this case, you're also taking beat cops out of a rotation, which will make the job tougher for the remaining officers.   This will likely put a ton of stress on 911 agents as well to have to quickly diagnose a situation and identify the proper people to engage.

Are we sure we don't want to just ramp-up education programs around mental health, social work, de-escalation strategies, etc... for current police officers?   

Also, the hard part for police departments is that their lowest-paid, most unqualified officers are oftentimes the ones on the beats responding to these events.  Obviously, you promote your better officers to higher-paid positions which usually takes them off the front lines. 
In the George Floyd case, 2 of the 4 arrested officers were on the force for less than a year (I believe one of them was on his 3rd beat shift).  Their worlds are likely rocked right now.  Their 18-year veteran "training supervisor" is the one doing this in front of them.  I cant imagine either one of them wanted to speak up against him and tell him to 'get off' out of fear of retribution from their superior... though their hearts may have bled at the time.

I truly believe most police officers are trying their hardest to do the right thing, and are doing an overall great job.  But like any other profession, there are definitely officers that underperform.  And unfortunately in their line of work, that can lead to needless deaths.  I don't think defunding police is going to rid all departments of the "bad apples".

There just needs to be a lot of thought going into how it gets implemented.  This type of decision cannot be made out of emotion (however justified that emotion is).

Agree the system need to be improved. Why is it though on other social programs are not working politicians and communities want to spend more money, but now they want to cut. Will they start demanding those programs are cut?

[Quoner]

2 minutes ago, El Paso Eagle said:

Agree the system need to be improved. Why is it though on other social programs are not working politicians and communities want to spend more money, but now they want to cut. Will they start demanding those programs are cut?

They have legit all been cut already. Compare the ratio of a police budget to education and everything else of any city's totally budget. And it is not like those budgets are going primarily into pensions and higher salaries. The paramilitary equipment market is absurd and that is where you see suburban cities napping armed or insanely outfitted aircraft, armored vehicles, etc. There are militarized use of force programs that cost a pretty penny and a fundamental shift that needs to happen in training (and protections from unions and laws that can be rethought.) 

It's a fascinating conversation that needs a range of experts and perspectives to be done right, but as we learned from the attempt at healthcare, there's not a lot of good faith arguments and the MO seems to be to blow up the other side and break the wheel, then claim it would have never worked anyway. Hopefully, the momentum we're seeing is beyond that usual crashing point since, as CBL and the 13th pointed out, these reports and recommendations are a century old with no action ever taken. Instead, the system continues to work exactly it was always intended too and for some reason many people continue to pour their energy into "whatabouts" and fighting to preserve a pretty crappy status quo. 

[El Paso Eagle]

35 minutes ago, Quoner said:

They have legit all been cut already. Compare the ratio of a police budget to education and everything else of any city's totally budget. And it is not like those budgets are going primarily into pensions and higher salaries. The paramilitary equipment market is absurd and that is where you see suburban cities napping armed or insanely outfitted aircraft, armored vehicles, etc. There are militarized use of force programs that cost a pretty penny and a fundamental shift that needs to happen in training (and protections from unions and laws that can be rethought.) 

It's a fascinating conversation that needs a range of experts and perspectives to be done right, but as we learned from the attempt at healthcare, there's not a lot of good faith arguments and the MO seems to be to blow up the other side and break the wheel, then claim it would have never worked anyway. Hopefully, the momentum we're seeing is beyond that usual crashing point since, as CBL and the 13th pointed out, these reports and recommendations are a century old with no action ever taken. Instead, the system continues to work exactly it was always intended too and for some reason many people continue to pour their energy into "whatabouts" and fighting to preserve a pretty crappy status quo. 

Think this is a big problem where officers are being protected. Too many stories where officers have verified complaints (not just the personal attacks) and they are still on the streets

[MeanGreenTexan]

45 minutes ago, Quoner said:

They have legit all been cut already. Compare the ratio of a police budget to education and everything else of any city's totally budget. And it is not like those budgets are going primarily into pensions and higher salaries. The paramilitary equipment market is absurd and that is where you see suburban cities napping armed or insanely outfitted aircraft, armored vehicles, etc. There are militarized use of force programs that cost a pretty penny and a fundamental shift that needs to happen in training (and protections from unions and laws that can be rethought.) 

It's a fascinating conversation that needs a range of experts and perspectives to be done right, but as we learned from the attempt at healthcare, there's not a lot of good faith arguments and the MO seems to be to blow up the other side and break the wheel, then claim it would have never worked anyway. Hopefully, the momentum we're seeing is beyond that usual crashing point since, as CBL and the 13th pointed out, these reports and recommendations are a century old with no action ever taken. Instead, the system continues to work exactly it was always intended too and for some reason many people continue to pour their energy into "whatabouts" and fighting to preserve a pretty crappy status quo. 

For sure.
There is still violent crime though, especially in larger cities, so we need to ensure SWAT teams and others like them have what they need in those events (The Breonna Taylor invasion was likely done by one of those types of militarized teams, so I can definitely see a need for some kind of change/reform there as well).   However, we see most of these tragedies unfold at the hands of regular patrol officers, and there's not much else you can take from these guys, right?   These questions may already have answers from people who have thought this through more, or even implemented some of the proposals... If so, I'm unaware, but would be interested in hearing more.

[Quoner]

4 minutes ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

For sure.
There is still violent crime though, especially in larger cities, so we need to ensure SWAT teams and others like them have what they need in those events (The Breonna Taylor invasion was likely done by one of those types of militarized teams, so I can definitely see a need for some kind of change/reform there as well).   However, we see most of these tragedies unfold at the hands of regular patrol officers, and there's not much else you can take from these guys, right?   These questions may already have answers from people who have thought this through more, or even implemented some of the proposals... If so, I'm unaware, but would be interested in hearing more.

I'm still learning, but the place I keep getting directed to is https://8cantwait.org/. Admittedly, some of it feels a bit optimistic and pollyanna, but I also have a lot here I don't know and want to learn. Even after only the simple steps of watching The 13th and going on to read a lot of thoughtful looks at the prison industrial complex, I'm at a loss for how anyone can think we just need a little bit of polishing around the edges. I would encourage everyone to spend a couple of hours with that one and leave some time to process it when you're done. As a teaser/incentive for our more conservative crowd, I promise you'll leave wanting to kick Bill Clinton in the dick.

[MeanGreenTexan]

17 minutes ago, Quoner said:

I'm still learning, but the place I keep getting directed to is https://8cantwait.org/. Admittedly, some of it feels a bit optimistic and pollyanna, but I also have a lot here I don't know and want to learn. Even after only the simple steps of watching The 13th and going on to read a lot of thoughtful looks at the prison industrial complex, I'm at a loss for how anyone can think we just need a little bit of polishing around the edges. I would encourage everyone to spend a couple of hours with that one and leave some time to process it when you're done. As a teaser/incentive for our more conservative crowd, I promise you'll leave wanting to kick Bill Clinton in the dick.

That website did have some great immediate ideas (I'm assuming that's what the "8can'twait" are).  I have to imagine there are even more ideas that can & should be implemented as well (bodycams, bodycams, bodycams! Turn yours off and you are automatically reprimanded up to termination).  The website needs to be updated though, as I saw they still have Dallas PD down with Duty to Intervene as "No", when DPD just ratified it last week.  To me, duty to intervene is a no-brainer, and should be on the books as an HR protection for EVERY police force as it would protect officers like those new guys in Minneapolis, who sat & watched their superior kill a man, from speaking up.

The next two sections, "Comprehensive Community Safety", and "Abolition" would be much harder to implement, especially, as we've seen, the "living wages" part, but should be explored.  The "fully defund police" item (meaning no police departments at all? No detectives, no nothing?) ... I can't wrap my mind around that one.  On the surface, it seems like a terrible idea, because even if this utopic society were to somehow work itself into existence, there are still going to be crimes.

I'm interested in The 13th.  Need to check that out when my kids haven't commandeered the TV watching Larva Island.

[Censored by Laurie]

2 hours ago, Quoner said:

I'm still learning, but the place I keep getting directed to is https://8cantwait.org/. Admittedly, some of it feels a bit optimistic and pollyanna, but I also have a lot here I don't know and want to learn. Even after only the simple steps of watching The 13th and going on to read a lot of thoughtful looks at the prison industrial complex, I'm at a loss for how anyone can think we just need a little bit of polishing around the edges. I would encourage everyone to spend a couple of hours with that one and leave some time to process it when you're done. As a teaser/incentive for our more conservative crowd, I promise you'll leave wanting to kick Bill Clinton in the dick.

I feel like this should be required watching for anyone wanting to participate in these conversations. 
 

[97and03]

Yes all of this needs to be done in concert with prison reform, increased funding for education and community programs, drug policy reform, mental health service reform, increased emphasis on community policing, legal reforms (removing no-knock warrants), affordable housing, congressional action on military surplus to police, and taking care of the over 2 million veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan who are often vulnerable to the above issues.

[KRAM1]

9 hours ago, 97and03 said:

, and taking care of the over 2 million veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan who are often vulnerable to the above issues.

Huh? Please explain....and what's your take on the swell treatment Viet Nan era veterans got from the nation?

[97and03]

14 minutes ago, KRAM1 said:

Huh? Please explain....and what's your take on the swell treatment Viet Nan era veterans got from the nation?

The VA has been a mess for years and PTSD among veterans means we need increased mental health resources. 
We are 45 years since the end of Vietnam so I was specifically referring to the last 19 years, but in response our treatment of Vietnam vets was no better if not worse - plus they were often treated poorly by those who opposed the war. A little before my time and I studied WW1 and WW2 so I don’t have a great grasp on that era. Did you have a point in asking? Do you think our care of recent vets has been adequate? 
 

[KRAM1]

54 minutes ago, 97and03 said:

The VA has been a mess for years and PTSD among veterans means we need increased mental health resources. 
We are 45 years since the end of Vietnam so I was specifically referring to the last 19 years, but in response our treatment of Vietnam vets was no better if not worse - plus they were often treated poorly by those who opposed the war. A little before my time and I studied WW1 and WW2 so I don’t have a great grasp on that era. Did you have a point in asking? Do you think our care of recent vets has been adequate? 
 

Just did not have a clue what you were trying to say as you did not reference the VA in your original post. Had you done so, I would have known. And, as a Viet Nam era vet refused VA care I am painfully aware of the issues. Appreciate your concern for our Vets! 

[97and03]

35 minutes ago, KRAM1 said:

Just did not have a clue what you were trying to say as you did not reference the VA in your original post. Had you done so, I would have known. And, as a Viet Nam era vet refused VA care I am painfully aware of the issues. Appreciate your concern for our Vets! 

Ok sorry. I have mentioned in other threads I think but I made the mistake of not explaining fully. Glad we reached an understanding. I work with many Vets and active duty - many friends are struggling from their experiences so it is something I hold dearly to my heart. And we also see it in our daily lives. Vietnam vets struggled and so do our current ones. Drug problems, unemployment, and homelessness are not just general society problems but also Veterans’ issues that we MUST address. 

[UNTLifer]

People want the government to provide all of these services, but then when I look at the failure in the services they provide, I just don't get it.

Postal Service: failure

VA: failure

Social Security: failure

Amtrack: failure

[CMJ]

The postal service wasn't a "failure" until recent years with their pension issues.  And speaking for myself, I have way better luck with them than UPS or FedEx.

[Coach Andy Mac]

13 minutes ago, CMJ said:

The postal service wasn't a "failure" until recent years with their pension issues.  And speaking for myself, I have way better luck with them than UPS or FedEx.

I agree they have always done a nice job for us.  I would like to see them salvaged.

[UNTLifer]

1 hour ago, Coach Andy Mac said:

I agree they have always done a nice job for us.  I would like to see them salvaged.

The postal service is mandated by the Constitution, so it isn't going anywhere and I am not proposing that it be eliminated, but it has been mismanaged forever.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/u-s-postal-service-marks-11-straight-years-of-financial-loss

[Quoner]

 

19 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

The postal service is mandated by the Constitution, so it isn't going anywhere and I am not proposing that it be eliminated, but it has been mismanaged forever.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/u-s-postal-service-marks-11-straight-years-of-financial-loss

Doctor, if you take a critical patient off respirators and feeding tubes, do you call the patient a failure too? Starting with your quote above, does forever mean 2006? https://ips-dc.org/how-congress-manufactured-a-postal-crisis-and-how-to-fix-it/

Quote

In 2006, Congress passed a law that imposed extraordinary costs on the U.S. Postal Service. The Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act (PAEA) required the USPS to create a $72 billion fund to pay for the cost of its post-retirement health care costs, 75 years into the future. This burden applies to no other federal agency or private corporation.

Blaming is always fun, but the most important question is can we actually fix this? The three step plan below sounds fairly simple. https://news.nd.edu/news/postal-service-losing-money-because-of-congressional-mandate-not-low-prices-expert-says/

Quote

The reason the postal service is losing money is because of a congressionally mandated retirement healthcare funding program that no other government agency is required to observe. This creates a $6.5 billion annual shortfall that could easily be avoided.”

The solution, O’Rourke says, would involve three steps:

“First, repeal the pre-funding mandate and use the accumulated reserves to fund future pay-as-you-go costs,” he said. “That reserve now has about $47 billion on deposit. Second, adopt generally accepted accounting principles to determine postal service liabilities. Nearly every for-profit business in this country does exactly that. And third, provide Medicare for future USPS retirees. This is precisely what military retirees are required to participate in.”

“The postal service is a joke,” Trump told reporters in the Oval Office. “The post office should raise the price of a package by approximately four times,” he said.

But O’Rourke says, at the encouragement of the president, Congress created this problem on their own.

“It would be unwise to allow this to continue,” he said. “Also, covering a $6.5 billion shortfall with a four-fold increase in parcel post would essentially close down that class of service. They cannot make it up with higher-priced stamps.”

 

[UNTLifer]

Not a doctor, but I play one in your mind, so the answer to your question is quite obvious and doesn't require a reply from me.  Regarding the postal service, forever was a figure of speech.  I assume you know what that is, so I won't address that either.  Regarding the USPS financial woes, yes, the act you referenced doesn't help, but they have defaulted on payments to that program because of failures in their basic business model as noted in the GAO Report below.  Notice it is not an opinion piece by an academic.

https://www.gao.gov/key_issues/us_postal_service_financial_viability/issue_summary#:~:text=The%20U.S.%20Postal%20Service's%20(USPS)%20financial%20condition%20continues%20to%20deteriorate,payments%20migrate%20to%20electronic%20alternatives.

USPS financial viability continues to be high risk because USPS cannot fund its current level of services and financial obligations from its revenues. As stated in GAO’s 2019 High-Risk update, USPS faces financial challenges that include the following:

• Poor financial situation: USPS’s overall financial condition is deteriorating and unsustainable. USPS has lost $69 billion over the past 11 fiscal years—including $3.9 billion in fiscal year 2018. USPS’s total unfunded liabilities and debt ($143 billion at the end of fiscal year 2018) have grown to double its annual revenue.
• Insufficient cost savings: The savings from  USPS cost-reduction efforts have dwindled in recent years. Although USPS has stated that it will aggressively reduce costs within its control, its plans will not achieve the kind of savings necessary to significantly reduce current operating costs.
• Unfavorable trends: USPS’s expenses are now growing faster than its revenues—partly due to rising compensation and benefits costs and continuing declines in the volume of First-Class Mail.

I will point out the last bullet where it states "USPS's expenses are now growing faster than its revenues-partlydue to rising compensation and benefits costs and continuing declines in volume of First-Class Mail.  The key word is partly.

 

[Quoner]

10 hours ago, UNTLifer said:

Not a doctor, but I play one in your mind

You've been touting medical credentials and expertise since coronavirus hit the news, so my apologies for taking you at your word. I feel 400% better about having a medical emergency during my next outing to your side of Texas. 

As for the budget report...

Quote

USPS financial viability continues to be high risk because USPS cannot fund its current level of services and financial obligations from its revenues. As stated in GAO’s 2019 High-Risk update, USPS faces financial challenges that include the following:

• Poor financial situation: USPS’s overall financial condition is deteriorating and unsustainable. USPS has lost $69 billion over the past 11 fiscal years—including $3.9 billion in fiscal year 2018. USPS’s total unfunded liabilities and debt ($143 billion at the end of fiscal year 2018) have grown to double its annual revenue.
• Insufficient cost savings: The savings from  USPS cost-reduction efforts have dwindled in recent years. Although USPS has stated that it will aggressively reduce costs within its control, its plans will not achieve the kind of savings necessary to significantly reduce current operating costs.
• Unfavorable trends: USPS’s expenses are now growing faster than its revenues—partly due to rising compensation and benefits costs and continuing declines in the volume of First-Class Mail.

I will point out the last bullet where it states "USPS's expenses are now growing faster than its revenues-partlydue to rising compensation and benefits costs and continuing declines in volume of First-Class Mail.  The key word is partly.

So even in the report you posted, the liabilities and associated debt since the congressional act I referenced show up 3 times in the 3 main bullets. A service company like this can typically have around 50% of its total revenue tied up in comp and benefits (I'm not digging out a budget since we're already deep in an aside.) The plan to fix it I posted before also leaves room to fix the other issues by arguing to adopt generally accepted accounting principles to determine postal service liabilities. The business model when the last major legislature passed in 2006 has changed drastically (hence the losses), but the changes needed haven't happened because we're living in zero compromise Mitch McConnell land. 

So, outside of a spirited debate on whether price increases can make up the gap (and several experts are saying it won't because that reality is not coming back), the most direct and impacting action to fix this financial problem is to change the pension structure to reflect what is mostly used in the private sector. In the meantime, inaction is intentionally defunding the system to break it (like the patient we begun with), which has basically been the playbook for many social services since Reagan. I don't think privatization has been a homerun for aviation or telecomm nor do I see a scalable structure for private delivery that won't insanely destroy pricing for rural areas, but I'm open to ideas from any and all GMG infrastructure enthusiasts!

[UNTLifer]

4 minutes ago, Quoner said:

You've been touting medical credentials and expertise since coronavirus hit the news, so my apologies for taking you at your word. I feel 400% better about having a medical emergency during my next outing to your side of Texas. 

Please show me the medical credentials I have touted.

[UNTLifer]

The report also notes that they have lost money and defaulted on their payments to the pension plan, but this only drives home my point that the government running this program has put it in a terrible position.

Edited June 16, 2020 by UNTLifer

[Quoner]

13 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

Please show me the medical credentials I have touted.

In the sacred words of Pitbull: "uno, dos, tres, quatro..."

16 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

The report also notes that they have lost money and defaulted on their payments to the pension plan, but this only drives home my point that the government running this program has put it in a terrible position.

We are legit agreeing it needs to be run better, I am just saying the Postal Service has been shot in the foot while being asked to fix real issues. We don't have to be adversarial about everything. 

[UNTLifer]

57 minutes ago, Quoner said:

In the sacred words of Pitbull: "uno, dos, tres, quatro..."

We are legit agreeing it needs to be run better, I am just saying the Postal Service has been shot in the foot while being asked to fix real issues. We don't have to be adversarial about everything. 

And none of those are "medical credentials" as I was just stating my involvement within our healthcare system.  I have shared information that has been put in place in the healthcare system that I am affiliated with.

Then don't be adversarial.

Yes, the postal service has been "shot in the foot" by our government which runs the USPS and put those requirements in place, thus making my point that they are poor at managing enterprises of this nature.  Here's a copy of an article from 1968 regarding the postal service and reasons behind the idea of privatizing the service.  I know that doesn't qualify as forever, but 50 years is probably pretty damn close for many.

Recent article:

https://reason.com/2019/05/10/post-service-lost-2-billion-in-three-months/

Link in the article above to an editorial from 1968.

https://reason.com/1968/09/01/why-not-a-laissez-faire-postal-system-2/

 

[Quoner]

19 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

And none of those are "medical credentials" as I was just stating my involvement within our healthcare system.  I have shared information that has been put in place in the healthcare system that I am affiliated with.

Then don't be adversarial.

Yes, the postal service has been "shot in the foot" by our government which runs the USPS and put those requirements in place, thus making my point that they are poor at managing enterprises of this nature.  Here's a copy of an article from 1968 regarding the postal service and reasons behind the idea of privatizing the service.  I know that doesn't qualify as forever, but 50 years is probably pretty damn close for many.

Recent article:

https://reason.com/2019/05/10/post-service-lost-2-billion-in-three-months/

Link in the article above to an editorial from 1968.

https://reason.com/1968/09/01/why-not-a-laissez-faire-postal-system-2/

 

Dude...every single article you list mentions the intentional albatross placed by Congress and the failure to address it. 

Quote

Its big losses are driven by a sharp increase in expenses, primarily workers' compensation costs, pension liabilities, and payments for retirees' health benefits.

 

Quote

It's not exactly news that personnel costs are driving the Postal Service's financial problems. The agency has $100 billion in unfunded pension liabilities and "no clear path to profitability," according to a White House assessment report released last year.

The good thing about an op-ed that argues how awesome it will be to deregulate telecommunications as its example is we can currently look at how awesome its been to deregulate telecommunications. Spoiler alert - it sucks! Reason was wrong then - they just didn't have the evidence and case studies in existence yet. 

Also, if you're so desperate to deregulate something broken, I guess this is your big build up to announcing you want to privatize the police, too? Is it a driving philosophy of limited government or is it a burning desire to own those libs from a party and movement that can't stay true to its alleged one true principle?

[Quoner]

27 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

And none of those are "medical credentials" as I was just stating my involvement within our healthcare system.  I have shared information that has been put in place in the healthcare system that I am affiliated with.

You tried to position yourself as an expert vs. a guy also in the building to shout down others.