Where have we heard this before...

[TheColonyEagle]

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2834175-is-there-a-place-in-cfb-for-anthony-munoz-the-countrys-most-prolific-hs-qb

 

 

[Harry]

1 hour ago, TheColonyEagle said:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2834175-is-there-a-place-in-cfb-for-anthony-munoz-the-countrys-most-prolific-hs-qb

 

 

I see where you’re going but damn man we are pretty stacked at that position as odd as that sounds to say at North Texas (thank you SL)...

[golfingomez]

surprising that they didn't mention Fine in the article

[NorthTexasWeLove]

21 hours ago, Harry said:

I see where you’re going but damn man we are pretty stacked at that position as odd as that sounds to say at North Texas (thank you SL)...

How says who? We have a bonafide all conference caliber starter. 

After that, there is no telling who or what we have. The rest are unproven and are far from a given. 

I think Dan McCarney said similar things about Josh Greer and Andrew McNulty, specifically McNulty. I say bring on the best of the best we can possibly land at the QB position until someone dubs themselves the next starter by their in-game actions. If it steers another QB away then so be it. 

[Harry]

2 hours ago, NorthTexasWeLove said:

After that, there is no telling who or what we have. The rest are unproven and are far from a given. 

Agree they are unproven but the talent level is much higher.and deeper in my opinion than what we have had as backups in the past.  

[greenminer]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

Agree they are unproven but the talent level is much higher.and deeper in my opinion than what we have had as backups in the past.  

Have you ever heard someone say, "MJ was a talented bball player!"? Or, "gosh, Miles Davis has some talent."

Probably never. It's because talent is an adjective used for people who haven't done anything.

[UNTLifer]

3 minutes ago, greenminer said:

Have you ever heard someone say, "MJ was a talented bball player!"? Or, "gosh, Miles Davis has some talent."

Probably never. It's because talent is an adjective used for people who haven't done anything.

You are correct, but at the beginning of their careers I bet a lot of people made those exact statements. Our backups are higher rated than our past starters and have the talent to develop in to QB’s like we had never seen prior to Mason Fine setting foot on campus. Heck, let’s be honest, every backup we have now was much higher rated than Fine coming out of high school, but we caught lightening in a bottle with Fine. These young men will be fine and one of them will step up when Fine graduates. The problem is that the person following Fine will be compared to Mason and that isn’t fair considering Mason is a once in a lifetime player. 

[NorthTexasWeLove]

5 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

You are correct, but at the beginning of their careers I bet a lot of people made those exact statements. Our backups are higher rated than our past starters and have the talent to develop in to QB’s like we had never seen prior to Mason Fine setting foot on campus. Heck, let’s be honest, every backup we have now was much higher rated than Fine coming out of high school, but we caught lightening in a bottle with Fine. These young men will be fine and one of them will step up when Fine graduates. The problem is that the person following Fine will be compared to Mason and that isn’t fair considering Mason is a once in a lifetime player. 

In this offense I disagree. Numbers ŵill be put up post MF. I know it contradicts my comments to Harry, but IF one of the current roster QBs live up to expectations then numbers will be put up. 

[97and03]

1 hour ago, greenminer said:

Have you ever heard someone say, "MJ was a talented bball player!"? Or, "gosh, Miles Davis has some talent."

Probably never. It's because talent is an adjective used for people who haven't done anything.

Just because someone isn’t in the one o’clock lab band doesn’t mean they won’t get there

[SilverEagle]

12 hours ago, 97and03 said:

Just because someone isn’t in the one o’clock lab band doesn’t mean they won’t get there

……..except that a "talented" QB prospect would have a much easier time making it as the starting QB at NT than someone aspiring to be in the one o'clock Lab Band.

[peanuts104]

14 hours ago, greenminer said:

Have you ever heard someone say, "MJ was a talented bball player!"? Or, "gosh, Miles Davis has some talent."

Probably never. It's because talent is an adjective used for people who haven't done anything.

I've heard people say things to the effect of both of those statements...

[greenminer]

On 5/3/2019 at 8:59 PM, 97and03 said:

Just because someone isn’t in the one o’clock lab band doesn’t mean they won’t get there

Inversely, just because someone has talent doesn’t mean they will.

I’m not saying that we don’t have the ability at that position.  I’m saying let’s hold off on the egg counting before we’ve seen anything hatch. That’s all.

[SilverEagle]

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 7:39 PM, UNTLifer said:

You are correct, but at the beginning of their careers I bet a lot of people made those exact statements. Our backups are higher rated than our past starters and have the talent to develop in to QB’s like we had never seen prior to Mason Fine setting foot on campus. Heck, let’s be honest, every backup we have now was much higher rated than Fine coming out of high school, but we caught lightening in a bottle with Fine. These young men will be fine and one of them will step up when Fine graduates. The problem is that the person following Fine will be compared to Mason and that isn’t fair considering Mason is a once in a lifetime player. 

 

On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 7:46 PM, NorthTexasWeLove said:

In this offense I disagree. Numbers ŵill be put up post MF. I know it contradicts my comments to Harry, but IF one of the current roster QBs live up to expectations then numbers will be put up. 

It is my humble opinion that Mason Fine was part of a once in a lifetime situation and/or system here at NT.....mainly the right coaching staff. 

Mason Fine is an exceptional QB. He has a good arm. He is mobile, and he throws almost as well on the run as he does in the pocket. He is without a doubt one of the most outwardly confident QB's I've ever seen play at NT....well...besides Scott Davis.  But he benefits from a system that almost looks as if it was made just for him, rather than a system that he,  (like most QB's in college) had to make adjustments to function in. From my observations of him from the very beginning, his main adjustment was getting used to the speed of the college game, and then the habits/abilities of his receivers. 

Mason Fine has benefited (like a lot of very successful QB's) from some exceptional receivers.  Bussy and Lawrence were as much responsible for that famous "drive" against UTSA as Mason Fine. One is an exceptional athlete and the other is an exceptional overachiever. 

 

Here are the top ten QB's as far as total passing yards as of the end of the 2017 season.  I've watched every one of them, and (FWIW) if they had been put out there in the same system (the coaching and receiver corps) as Mason Fine they would have done just as well...…..especially Mitch Maher and/or Scott Davis.

 

 

 

Stats at the end of 2017 season.

1. Mitch Maher, 1991-94 8,519

2. Derek Thompson, 2009-13 7,447

3. Steve Ramsey, 1967-69 7,076

4. Scott Davis, 1987-90 6,923

5. Scott Hall, 2000-04 5,975

6. Mason Fine, 2016-present 5,624

7. Giovanni Vizza, 2007-08 5,146

8. Jason Mills, 1994-97 3,981

9. Vidal Carlin, 1965-66 3,233

10. Riley Dodge, 2008-10 3

[NorthTexasWeLove]

5 hours ago, SilverEagle said:

 

It is my humble opinion that Mason Fine was part of a once in a lifetime situation and/or system here at NT.....mainly the right coaching staff. 

Mason Fine is an exceptional QB. He has a good arm. He is mobile, and he throws almost as well on the run as he does in the pocket. He is without a doubt one of the most outwardly confident QB's I've ever seen play at NT....well...besides Scott Davis.  But he benefits from a system that almost looks as if it was made just for him, rather than a system that he,  (like most QB's in college) had to make adjustments to function in. From my observations of him from the very beginning, his main adjustment was getting used to the speed of the college game, and then the habits/abilities of his receivers. 

Mason Fine has benefited (like a lot of very successful QB's) from some exceptional receivers.  Bussy and Lawrence were as much responsible for that famous "drive" against UTSA as Mason Fine. One is an exceptional athlete and the other is an exceptional overachiever. 

 

Here are the top ten QB's as far as total passing yards as of the end of the 2017 season.  I've watched every one of them, and (FWIW) if they had been put out there in the same system (the coaching and receiver corps) as Mason Fine they would have done just as well...…..especially Mitch Maher and/or Scott Davis.

 

 

 

Stats at the end of 2017 season.

1. Mitch Maher, 1991-94 8,519

2. Derek Thompson, 2009-13 7,447

3. Steve Ramsey, 1967-69 7,076

4. Scott Davis, 1987-90 6,923

5. Scott Hall, 2000-04 5,975

6. Mason Fine, 2016-present 5,624

7. Giovanni Vizza, 2007-08 5,146

8. Jason Mills, 1994-97 3,981

9. Vidal Carlin, 1965-66 3,233

10. Riley Dodge, 2008-10 3

Great post. But what side are you taking here. MF is a ONCE in a lifetime QB OR another QB could come in here and put up numbers in this system and have success? 

[SilverEagle]

6 hours ago, NorthTexasWeLove said:

Great post. But what side are you taking here. MF is a ONCE in a lifetime QB OR another QB could come in here and put up numbers in this system and have success? 

I don't think MF is a once in a lifetime QB. He is a very good QB operating in a system where all the planets lined up just right......except against La Tech, UAB, Old Dominion......and Utah St. I can't speak about other QB's that were out there when MF was brought in, but I do believe that if Mitch Maher or Scott Davis started their careers under the system that MF has been operating from, they would have probably done better.

[GrandGreen]

33 minutes ago, SilverEagle said:

I don't think MF is a once in a lifetime QB. He is a very good QB operating in a system where all the planets lined up just right......except against La Tech, UAB, Old Dominion......and Utah St. I can't speak about other QB's that were out there when MF was brought in, but I do believe that if Mitch Maher or Scott Davis started their careers under the system that MF has been operating from, they would have probably done better.

Maher and Davis were good QB's, but not in the same category as Fine.  Both were better runners than Fine, but were not close to as good a thrower. 

Coaches design offensives around their QB.  Maher and Davis were much more dual threat.  Steve Ramsey was a great passer, but could not run at all.  All were supported by good receivers and schemes that fit their skills. 

Fine IMO is the best QB to play at NT, it is not the system: it is the talent.   

I hope that Bain, Mason, etc. can follow and do even better; but that is a big reach at this point.  

[UNTLifer]

13 hours ago, GrandGreen said:

Maher and Davis were good QB's, but not in the same category as Fine.  Both were better runners than Fine, but were not close to as good a thrower. 

Coaches design offensives around their QB.  Maher and Davis were much more dual threat.  Steve Ramsey was a great passer, but could not run at all.  All were supported by good receivers and schemes that fit their skills. 

Fine IMO is the best QB to play at NT, it is not the system: it is the talent.   

I hope that Bain, Mason, etc. can follow and do even better; but that is a big reach at this point.  

I agree with this assessment.  Fine is the better QB.  Stronger arm, crazy accurate with all the intangibles.  Just hearing announcers talk about him once they saw him play tells me even the "experts" were awed by his ability.  Davis was a great athlete playing QB with the swagger to back it up.  He led us to that victory in Austin on balls alone.  Maher was great, but he didn't have near the arm that Fine has.  Like you, I watched all three play, and like you, this is my opinion.  Fun to debate

Edited May 6, 2019 by UNTLifer

[SilverEagle]

14 hours ago, GrandGreen said:

Maher and Davis were good QB's, but not in the same category as Fine.  Both were better runners than Fine, but were not close to as good a thrower. 

Coaches design offensives around their QB.  Maher and Davis were much more dual threat.  Steve Ramsey was a great passer, but could not run at all.  All were supported by good receivers and schemes that fit their skills. 

Fine IMO is the best QB to play at NT, it is not the system: it is the talent.   

I hope that Bain, Mason, etc. can follow and do even better; but that is a big reach at this point.  

 

 

4 hours ago, UNTLifer said:

I agree with this assessment.  Fine is the better QB.  Stronger arm, crazy accurate with all the intangibles.  Just hearing announcers talk about him once they saw him play tells me even the "experts" were awed by his ability.  Davis was a great athlete playing QB with the swagger to back it up.  He led us to that victory in Austin on balls alone.  Maher was great, but he didn't have near the arm that Fine has.  Like you, I watched all three play, and like you, this is my opinion.  Fun to dbate

It is with great trepidation that I respond to the bolded section of the sentence on top as well as the one just above. Mainly because these discussions rarely end in any sort of agreements. But since I've gone this far......here goes. 

To me, this is a discussion about talent, not systems. From my observation of Fine, he is in charge of a great system, installed by great systems coaches.  He is great in the system because he is a great timing passer/thrower. And as I said of him when he was a freshman in fall practice, he oozes confidence from every pore. But he is not the best pure QB that ever played here. He threw the ball a lot in HS, and put up gaudy numbers, but when his HS came up against Lone Grove all that impressive passing resulted in a 0-64 loss. Someone obviously figured out how to disrupt his rhythm...….much like La Tech, USB, Old Dominion and Utah St.

MF has benefited from a great system put in place by great coaches.  The only former NT QB that had anything even remotely close to the coaching MF has had was Mitch Maher who was (position) coached by Todd Dodge. But he played in a crappy facility, with crappy funding and crappy support from the administration. Not only did Mitch Maher have a better overall passing arm, as well as running ability (and like Fine he threw just was well on the run as in the pocket), but there are several other former NT QB's who did as well.

Scott Davis, Scott Hall, Gioanni Vizza, Joe Stevenson, Jason Mills, Jordan Case, and even Daniel Maeger (who still holds the single game passing record of 601 yards)  had great throwing ability and great mobility. If any or all of these guys had been brought in at the same time as MF, and coached in the same system, it is my humble opinion that Mason Fine would have been sitting on the bench all this time.

Scott Hall put up 5900 yards in a primarily running system. In two of his four years, he spent a good amount of time handing the ball off to two national champion rushers. Scott Davis operated in a run-first system (the veer and the wishbone.....flying wishbone).

Mason Fine is a very precise timing passer, but if you mess with his timing/rhythm and/or his overachieving WR's are not going up and getting the ball, then the team is in danger of ending up like his Locust Grove team (0-64) in his senior year, or like our two times against FAU in 2017, with a Troy cherry on top in the NO bowl. 

 

 

Edited May 6, 2019 by SilverEagle

[UNTLifer]

2 hours ago, SilverEagle said:

 

 

It is with great trepidation that I respond to the bolded section of the sentence on top as well as the one just above. Mainly because these discussions rarely end in any sort of agreements. But since I've gone this far......here goes. 

To me, this is a discussion about talent, not systems. From my observation of Fine, he is in charge of a great system, installed by great systems coaches.  He is great in the system because he is a great timing passer/thrower. And as I said of him when he was a freshman in fall practice, he oozes confidence from every pore. But he is not the best pure QB that ever played here. He threw the ball a lot in HS, and put up gaudy numbers, but when his HS came up against Lone Grove all that impressive passing resulted in a 0-64 loss. Someone obviously figured out how to disrupt his rhythm...….much like La Tech, USB, Old Dominion and Utah St.

MF has benefited from a great system put in place by great coaches.  The only former NT QB that had anything even remotely close to the coaching MF had was Mitch Maher who was (position) coached by Todd Dodge. But he played in a crappy facility, with crappy funding and crappy support from the administration. Not only did Mitch Maher have a better overall passing arm, as well as running ability (and like Fine he threw just was well on the run as in the pocket), but there are several other former NT QB's who did as well.

Scott Davis, Scott Hall, Gioanni Vizza, Joe Stevenson, Jason Mills, Jordan Case, and even Daniel Maeger (who still holds the single game passing record of 601 yards)  had great throwing ability and great mobility. If any or all of these guys had been brought in at the same time as MF, and coached in the same system, it is my humble opinion that Mason Fine would have been sitting on the bench all this time.

Scott Hall put up 5900 yards in a primarily running system. In two of his four years, he spent a good amount of time handing the ball off to two national champion rushers. Scott Davis operated in a run-first system (the veer and the wishbone.....flying wishbone).

Mason Fine is a very precise timing passer, but if you mess with his timing/rhythm and/or his overachieving WR's are not going up and getting the ball, then the team is in danger of ending up like his Locust Grove team (0-64) in his senior year, or like our two times against FAU in 2017, with a Troy cherry on top in the NO bowl. 

 

 

I will give you Vizza, Case and Meager as being on the same level regarding arm strength.  Maher was a step below along with Davis and Stevenson.  Hall didn't have near the arm as any of the above, nor the arm of his backup Andrew Smith, but he was a leader and we were so run heavy that the play action pass was was so effective that it allowed him to succeed with a lesser arm.

I just don't include Mills as he threw for an average of about 1,300 yards a season and had 30 TD's to 34 Int's for his career, and, IMHO, wasn't on the same level as the rest of these QB's.

I have a hard time calling Fine a system QB as the back ups knowing the same system haven't had near the success as Fine.  We do run a similar system to what he ran in high school, but he was at such a small school that his results are an oddity.  There are a dozen kids each year in Texas at small classifications that put up huge numbers and they are passed over year after year in the recruiting game.  Fine is special.

Don't know if we will agree, but it is fun discussing from different points of view.

[DeepGreen]

On ‎5‎/‎5‎/‎2019 at 11:33 AM, SilverEagle said:

 

Stats at the end of 2017 season.

1. Mitch Maher, 1991-94 8,519

2. Derek Thompson, 2009-13 7,447

3. Steve Ramsey, 1967-69 7,076

4. Scott Davis, 1987-90 6,923

5. Scott Hall, 2000-04 5,975

6. Mason Fine, 2016-present 5,624

7. Giovanni Vizza, 2007-08 5,146

8. Jason Mills, 1994-97 3,981

9. Vidal Carlin, 1965-66 3,233

10. Riley Dodge, 2008-10 3 

SilverEagle, you might have to tamper down some of those total passing yards a bit for a few of those QB's.   What year did  NCAA football go to 12 games?  Also, how many bowl games were available in some years versus current bowl numbers?  In some ways you are comparing apples to satsumas.  However, all were fine QBs for UNT.

[NorthTexasWeLove]

5 hours ago, UNTLifer said:

I will give you Vizza, Case and Meager as being on the same level regarding arm strength.  Maher was a step below along with Davis and Stevenson.  Hall didn't have near the arm as any of the above, nor the arm of his backup Andrew Smith, but he was a leader and we were so run heavy that the play action pass was was so effective that it allowed him to succeed with a lesser arm.

I just don't include Mills as he threw for an average of about 1,300 yards a season and had 30 TD's to 34 Int's for his career, and, IMHO, wasn't on the same level as the rest of these QB's.

I have a hard time calling Fine a system QB as the back ups knowing the same system haven't had near the success as Fine.  We do run a similar system to what he ran in high school, but he was at such a small school that his results are an oddity.  There are a dozen kids each year in Texas at small classifications that put up huge numbers and they are passed over year after year in the recruiting game.  Fine is special.

Don't know if we will agree, but it is fun discussing from different points of view.

This offense in the passing game is predicated on timing. That takes reps. The back ups don't have near the amount reps they need. They need game reps THIS year. But SL has all but assured to the people paying attention he is a stat monger. Nothing I guess really wrong with that over the past 3 seasons. If he's around for the 2020 season (which I doubt), he will see exactly what's actually wrong with piling stats with your BFF QB. These back ups need to play THIS season. In any kind of mop up duty, us up big or down big. 

[emmitt01]

On 5/5/2019 at 11:33 AM, SilverEagle said:

 

It is my humble opinion that Mason Fine was part of a once in a lifetime situation and/or system here at NT.....mainly the right coaching staff. 

Mason Fine is an exceptional QB. He has a good arm. He is mobile, and he throws almost as well on the run as he does in the pocket. He is without a doubt one of the most outwardly confident QB's I've ever seen play at NT....well...besides Scott Davis.  But he benefits from a system that almost looks as if it was made just for him, rather than a system that he,  (like most QB's in college) had to make adjustments to function in. From my observations of him from the very beginning, his main adjustment was getting used to the speed of the college game, and then the habits/abilities of his receivers. 

Mason Fine has benefited (like a lot of very successful QB's) from some exceptional receivers.  Bussy and Lawrence were as much responsible for that famous "drive" against UTSA as Mason Fine. One is an exceptional athlete and the other is an exceptional overachiever. 

 

Here are the top ten QB's as far as total passing yards as of the end of the 2017 season.  I've watched every one of them, and (FWIW) if they had been put out there in the same system (the coaching and receiver corps) as Mason Fine they would have done just as well...…..especially Mitch Maher and/or Scott Davis.

 

 

 

Stats at the end of 2017 season.

1. Mitch Maher, 1991-94 8,519

2. Derek Thompson, 2009-13 7,447

3. Steve Ramsey, 1967-69 7,076

4. Scott Davis, 1987-90 6,923

5. Scott Hall, 2000-04 5,975

6. Mason Fine, 2016-present 5,624

7. Giovanni Vizza, 2007-08 5,146

8. Jason Mills, 1994-97 3,981

9. Vidal Carlin, 1965-66 3,233

10. Riley Dodge, 2008-10 3

I didn’t see all of them play, but of the ones I have seen I will tell you that Thompson, Hall, Vizza and Dodge don’t put up the numbers that Mason has in the same offense.  

They were good QB’s for us, and Hall and Dodge were two of the toughest SOB’s I’ve seen...but Mason is the best I have personally seen at the position, independent of system.  

[MeanGreenTexan]

53 minutes ago, emmitt01 said:

I didn’t see all of them play, but of the ones I have seen I will tell you that Thompson, Hall, Vizza and Dodge don’t put up the numbers that Mason has in the same offense.  

They were good QB’s for us, and Hall and Dodge were two of the toughest SOB’s I’ve seen...but Mason is the best I have personally seen at the position, independent of system.  

Agree.  He just makes throws that the other guys would miss.  Mason’s accuracy is incredible.

Two blessings collided here.  Mason Fine, & Seth Littrell’s flavor of Air Raid.  Both would have done much better than what was here before, but the fact that they both hit at the same time is a beautiful thing.

Enjoy this season folks.  We KNOW 1 of the two will be gone after this year, and the other will be courted again this offseason.  It’s very possible we lose both & don’t get to find out if it was more Mason or more Littrell.

[NorthTexasWeLove]

1 minute ago, MeanGreenTexan said:

Agree.  He just makes throws that the other guys would miss.  Mason’s accuracy is incredible.

Two blessings collided here.  Mason Fine, & Seth Littrell’s flavor of Air Raid.  Both would have done much better than what was here before, but the fact that they both hit at the same time is a beautiful thing.

Enjoy this season folks.  We KNOW 1 of the two will be gone after this year, and the other will be courted again this offseason.  It’s very possible we lose both & don’t get to find out if it was more Mason or more Littrell.

Hopefully smart and timely hires are made so we can keep the train rolling. So, who knows, we may get to find out in a sort of another way. 

[GrandGreen]

On 5/6/2019 at 1:52 PM, DeepGreen said:

SilverEagle, you might have to tamper down some of those total passing yards a bit for a few of those QB's.   What year did  NCAA football go to 12 games?  Also, how many bowl games were available in some years versus current bowl numbers?  In some ways you are comparing apples to satsumas.  However, all were fine QBs for UNT.

 

As one of the few that has seen Ramsey play, I think he is the only one that comes close to Fine in passing ability. 

Maher and Davis were definitely stars but they played in the Southland, and in my view didn't face the competition that Fine has.  Davis was like a fullback playing QB and Maher had big numbers but neither had the arm that Fine has.   Both were like Fine in that they had the great intangibles and were superior leaders. 

 

Edited May 9, 2019 by GrandGreen