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Content of Light the Tower video is a major reason why North Texas is recruiting “lights out!”

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No reason to replace the Superpit. Waste of money to do so. Renovating the Superpit makes more sense as the location on campus is excellent and the arena still looks modern for a 70s era building.

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The athletic department doesn’t own the super pit, that’s probably the biggest driver to build a new, more modern arena that will house multiple sports and practice courts. It’s in the master plan and makes sense. 

Edited by Salsa_Verde
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25 minutes ago, Salsa_Verde said:

The athletic department doesn’t own the super pit, that’s probably the biggest driver to build a new, more modern arena that will house multiple sports and practice courts. It’s in the master plan and makes sense. 

I'll never understand this reasoning. The University is one organization, play along or gtfo.

If you're going to spend millions of dollars generated from student fees on a new arena, you need a better reason than a couple scheduling issues a year.

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1 hour ago, meangreenlax said:

I'll never understand this reasoning. The University is one organization, play along or gtfo.

If you're going to spend millions of dollars generated from student fees on a new arena, you need a better reason than a couple scheduling issues a year.

The Athletic Department wants to add suites and more loge boxes. In order to do that, existing seats will have to be removed. The AD has to get permission from UNT to do that. Since the Coliseum is used pretty much all year round for all sorts of events, that seating can be pretty important, especially for events like high school graduations. Reducing the number of seats might not be something UNT is willing to do, so the AD has to just do without it (and loses additional revenue streams).

Our volleyball team plays in a gym that would be considered low end for most high schools in the area. While the low ceiling is an advantage to NTVB and helps make for a louder environment, the facility lacks in just about every category a decent college facility would have.

The new basketball arena would be used by both VB and MBB/WBB and would be available year round for both sports, something that isn't the case today, especially for our basketball teams.

It's way more complex then just a "scheduling" issue.

Edited by UNTFan23
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3 hours ago, UNTFan23 said:

The Athletic Department wants to add suites and more loge boxes. In order to do that, existing seats will have to be removed. The AD has to get permission from UNT to do that. Since the Coliseum is used pretty much all year round for all sorts of events, that seating can be pretty important, especially for events like high school graduations. Reducing the number of seats might not be something UNT is willing to do, so the AD has to just do without it (and loses additional revenue streams).

Our volleyball team plays in a gym that would be considered low end for most high schools in the area. While the low ceiling is an advantage to NTVB and helps make for a louder environment, the facility lacks in just about every category a decent college facility would have.

The new basketball arena would be used by both VB and MBB/WBB and would be available year round for both sports, something that isn't the case today, especially for our basketball teams.

It's way more complex then just a "scheduling" issue.

Lots of good points. Sounds like University admin wants Super Pit capacity to stay at 10K because it hosts dozens of commencements each year. Perhaps even more important than UNT commencements is hosting 20+ high school commencements which is a great recruiting tool. 

The issues with the Pit are the lack of ammenities (think hub club at Apogee) or premium seating. No suites and very few courtside seats. The ath dept added the loge seating last year which immediately sold out which shows demand for premium seating. Any renovation that helps with the needs of the athletic department cuts capacity which isn't what the University wants for their events. 

Costs - It often costs more to renovate an old facility than build new. You be demolishing tons of concrete to build suites and club seats and expand loge seating. Plus all of the existing chairbacks are terribly uncomfortable. To renovate the Pit the right way would probably be $60 million plus and the University loses what it probably sees as an asset (huge place to host graduation). You'd also have to replace expensive things like infrastucture (wiring, plumbing, etc.) to modernize the facility to host other things like concerts. If you think the figure is high, that's exactly what Houston just spent on the Hoffeinz which is very similar to the Super Pit.

And despite what some people say the Pit is WAY too big. You can talk about the 40k students all we want but they've shown no interest in consistently coming to events other than football (even FB is inconsistent).  

Here's top 12 all time crowds in history

1. 10,600 vs SMU (1977)             2. 9,100 vs DePaul (1980)                        3. 8,816 vs WTAMU (1976) 

4. 8,100 vs Texas (1980)             5. 7,105 vs Texas Tech (2010)                6. 7,100 vs UTPanAmerican (1977)

7. 7,087 vs Bradley (1976)          8. 6,921 vs ULL (2012)                              9. 6,838 vs LSU (2011)

10. 6,820 vs Baylor (1976)         11. 6,793 vs Ok State (2007)                  12. 6,500 vs Creighton (1977)

I believe the next highest would be the CBI championship game. So in 42 years we've had a dozen crowds 6,500 or more. Five of those were against "Power 5" programs that probably brought a lot of the fans. Only 7 more than 7,000 with two of those being against Texas and Texas Tech. These were probably tickets sold with actual in the building being somewhat less. There are lots of schools with large enrollments out there, there's no evidence that winning basketball plus large enrollment equals monster crowds.

Texas is building a 10,000 seat arena. They play in the Big 12, they are the state's flagship University (apologies to A&M) and they have a way better history/tradition. I'd bet a nickel to a dollar that Texas probably thinks they could go even smaller but know people will lose their minds if they come in under 10,000. Those of you who think we need a 10,000 seat arena aren't basing that opinion on facts or analysis.

As mentioned, Houston (with 45,000 students) just renovated Hoffeinz. New capacity?? 7,100. We need a place that feels cozy when you have 3,000 but can accommodate 6,000 plus on the rare occasions we need it (which has been once every 3.5 years since 1976). That shouldn't offend anyone. The best thing that could ever happen to football or men's basketball is to sell out and turn people away. There's not a single marketing initiative that would create a bigger buzz than that. So on super rare occasions where we would need more than 7,000 (average 1 every 6 years), let's sell out! Only one time in the last 38 years would we have turned fans away in a 7,000 seat arena, that's vs Tech in 2010. You'd have to go all the way back to 1980 to find another time. 

Edited by meangreenJW
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8 minutes ago, meangreenJW said:

Lots of good points. Sounds like University admin wants Super Pit capacity to stay at 10K because it hosts dozens of commencements each year. Perhaps even more important than UNT commencements is hosting 20+ high school commencements which is a great recruiting tool. 

The issues with the Pit are the lack of ammenities (think hub club at Apogee) or premium seating. No suites and very few courtside seats. The ath dept added the loge seating last year which immediately sold out which shows demand for premium seating. Any renovation that helps with the needs of the athletic department cuts capacity which isn't what the University wants for their events. 

Costs - It often costs more to renovate an old facility than build new. You be demolishing tons of concrete to build suites and club seats and expand loge seating. Plus all of the existing chairbacks are terribly uncomfortable. To renovate the Pit the right way would probably be $60 million plus and the University loses what it probably sees as an asset (huge place to host graduation). You'd also have to replace expensive things like infrastucture (wiring, plumbing, etc.) to modernize the facility to host other things like concerts. If you think the figure is high, that's exactly what Houston just spent on the Hoffeinz which is very similar to the Super Pit.

And despite what some people say the Pit is WAY too big. You can talk about the 40k students all we want but they've shown no interest in consistently coming to events other than football (even FB is inconsistent).  

Here's top 12 all time crowds in history

1. 10,600 vs SMU (1977)             2. 9,100 vs DePaul (1980)                        3. 8,816 vs WTAMU (1976) 

4. 8,100 vs Texas (1980)             5. 7,105 vs Texas Tech (2010)                6. 7,100 vs UTPanAmerican (1977)

7. 7,087 vs Bradley (1976)          8. 6,921 vs ULL (2012)                              9. 6,838 vs LSU (2011)

10. 6,820 vs Baylor (1976)         11. 6,793 vs Ok State (2007)                  12. 6,500 vs Creighton (1977)

I believe the next highest would be the CBI championship game. So in 42 years we've had a dozen crowds 6,500 or more. Five of those were against "Power 5" programs that probably brought a lot of the fans. Only 7 more than 7,000 with two of those being against Texas and Texas Tech. These were probably tickets sold with actual in the building being somewhat less. There are lots of schools with large enrollments out there, there's no evidence that winning basketball plus large enrollment equals monster crowds.

Texas is building a 10,000 seat arena. They play in the Big 12, they are the state's flagship University (apologies to A&M) and they have a way better history/tradition. I'd bet a nickel to a dollar that Texas probably thinks they could go even smaller but know people will lose their minds if they come in under 10,000. Those of you who think we need a 10,000 seat arena aren't basing that opinion on facts or analysis.

As mentioned, Houston (with 45,000 students) just renovated Hoffeinz. New capacity?? 7,100. We need a place that feels cozy when you have 3,000 but can accommodate 6,000 plus on the rare occasions we need it (which has been once every 3.5 years since 1976). That shouldn't offend anyone. The best thing that could ever happen to football or men's basketball is to sell out and turn people away. There's not a single marketing initiative that would create a bigger buzz than that.

I completely agree with this. The big is way to big. I love the new age gyms that feel packed even with a smaller crowd. The CBI crowd was amazing then you look up and the top sections are empty

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6 hours ago, GreenEggs&Ham™ said:

and the arena still looks modern for a 70s era building.

Do we walk into the same building?

 

4 hours ago, TheReal_jayD said:

The super pit is very very outdated.

If the Super Pit had national historical basketball significance, the outdated aspect might not matter as much. Since it doesn't, it being outdated matters a lot.

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Notice most of the bigger crowds were during the Blakely years in the 70's when we were still winning?  Continue our current winning trend and 7,000 is too small. 8,000 needs to be the minimum. 

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2 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

Notice most of the bigger crowds were during the Blakely years in the 70's when we were still winning?  Continue our current winning trend and 7,000 is too small. 8,000 needs to be the minimum. 

7,000 is a number too small? a number we have passed 7 times in 50 years..

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I was at all the games in the 1970s and 1980.  They were butts in the seats, not tickets sold, for the smu game I had to sit on the steps towards the top of the super pit.  That place was rocking back then!  Keep on winning and we will be back there again!!

GO MEAN GREEN!!!

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20 minutes ago, TheReal_jayD said:

7,000 is a number too small? a number we have passed 7 times in 50 years..

Yes, when you consider that the only consistent winning since it opened was the Blakely years followed by a downgrade in conference, bad coaching hires, etc...until JJ arrived, then a failed hire by a failed AD.  I state that the minimum should be 8,000 as long as the current administration is around, the university is committed to excellence not only in academics but also athletics, and the growth projections of North Texas are met.

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2 minutes ago, Cooke County Kid said:

I was at all the games in the 1970s and 1980.  They were butts in the seats, not tickets sold, for the smu game I had to sit on the steps towards the top of the super pit.  That place was rocking back then!  Keep on winning and we will be back there again!!

GO MEAN GREEN!!!

Exactly.  I was there for that game, the UT game, the DePaul game, etc...  Denton will support a winner with an administration doing things the right way.

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4 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

Yes, when you consider that the only consistent winning since it opened was the Blakely years followed by a downgrade in conference, bad coaching hires, etc...until JJ arrived, then a failed hire by a failed AD.  I state that the minimum should be 8,000 as long as the current administration is around, the university is committed to excellence not only in academics but also athletics, and the growth projections of North Texas are met.

then make it like apogee with easy expandablilty. When we go one season of selling out the 7,000 capacity then expand. No reason for another 1000 empty seats

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34 minutes ago, TheReal_jayD said:

then make it like apogee with easy expandablilty. When we go one season of selling out the 7,000 capacity then expand. No reason for another 1000 empty seats

Basketball arenas are never easy to expand.

 

I've been to numerous college basketball arenas.  And while the interior guts (electrical, piping, etc) up the SuperPit may be out of date (I wouldn't really know) the venue itself certainly isn't. 

 

Of course, I don't give a crap about the luxury box thing, but that seems all the rage now.  I will point out though that several of the top schools have arenas without those as well.

Edited by CMJ
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41 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

Yes, when you consider that the only consistent winning since it opened was the Blakely years followed by a downgrade in conference, bad coaching hires, etc...until JJ arrived, then a failed hire by a failed AD.  I state that the minimum should be 8,000 as long as the current administration is around, the university is committed to excellence not only in academics but also athletics, and the growth projections of North Texas are met.

but I dont think they will go smaller than 8,000 so i hope they go with something like this

East Carolina - 8,000 capacity

ecu.jpg

but I also love UTA which hold 7,000

uta.jpg

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1 hour ago, UNTLifer said:

Yes, when you consider that the only consistent winning since it opened was the Blakely years followed by a downgrade in conference, bad coaching hires, etc...until JJ arrived, then a failed hire by a failed AD.  I state that the minimum should be 8,000 as long as the current administration is around, the university is committed to excellence not only in academics but also athletics, and the growth projections of North Texas are met.

For the most part, attendance nationally has trended downward for several years. Student attendance even more so. I think Johnny Jones years are a good example. 5 consecutive 20+ wins seasons with two NCAA tournaments which was better than Blakely's three 20 win seasons. And only once did we exceed 7,000 announced attendance. It was 7,100 vs Texas Tech. Building an arena on the hope we can have 5 consecutive 20 win seasons with two NCAA appearances and be able to host in-state Big 12 team is literally like building a house for Thanksgiving to me. Yeah, you're ready for that one day out of 365 but it doesn't make any sense the other 364 days. Houston has better tradition and is in a similar metro area. They've won 20+ the past three years and are 9-0 and ranked 21st in the country. They are in a just opened renovated venue. They announced a sellout for LSU a few days ago but if you watched the game, there were several hundred seats available. Here's announced attendances this year 3725, 3952, 3784, 3872, 7092 (Oregon), 5587, 7039 (LSU), 6131. Want an example closer to home? UTA won 20+ each of the last three seasons. They haven't come close to filling up their 7,000 seat arena despite having 42,000 students. In fact in 16-17 when they won 27 games including winning at Texas, they averaged 2,798 (announced). TCU averaged 6,200 during Jamie Dixon's first season in a newly renovated arena. It dropped to just over 6,000 last year. That's announced and actual attendance isn't close to that if you watch their games. Their arena capacity? Just under 7,000. 

I get there is differences of opinion. But I'll say this again, there is no facts or analysis out there saying we need an arena bigger than 7,000. (I'd argue for 6-000-6,500 but won't for the sake of blowing some minds around here). And if attendance numbers from 40 years ago is the argument for, there are a significant number of modern day examples that say different including our own during Johnny's reign. To me, it makes much more sense to build an arena that we can make a home court advantage every game than to build one we would maybe come close to filling every 5-6 years. We can disagree. I'll be there beside you cheering regardless. 

Edited by meangreenJW
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2 hours ago, CMJ said:

I've been to numerous college basketball arenas.  And while the interior guts (electrical, piping, etc) up the SuperPit may be out of date (I wouldn't really know) the venue itself certainly isn't. 

You've never been in the bowels of the place, I am sure @TheReal_jayD has.  The seating and concourse look ok, but the parts the public doesn't usually see are terrible.  Old enough structure that getting and construction up to new codes is a nightmare.

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I think we need to see what happens with attendance the next few years before locking ourselves in. The problem is we only get one shot at building a new arena. If we build too small we are stuck with it. I would love to see something similar to what Northern Kentucky has. Modern arena with all the amenities. 10,000 capacity. 

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I've been watching MEAN GREEN sports for50 years and we need to make the tickets a premium (to get a seat) and yes the

atmosphere at the CBI was great like the Blakeley years. I think 7,000 is plenty. The UT BOR just approved a new 10,000 with

a student body of 49,000.

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15 hours ago, Cerebus said:

You've never been in the bowels of the place, I am sure @TheReal_jayD has.  The seating and concourse look ok, but the parts the public doesn't usually see are terrible.  Old enough structure that getting and construction up to new codes is a nightmare.

They have updated some but still the behinds the scenes is not great at all. Super out dated

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Not arguing what size the new arena should be, but why NT would even think of spending that much to replace a perfectly adequate SP.

I want everyone who thinks, a new modern type arena is a good plan,  go watch a game at UTA.   This is what you get for 80 million.   I prefer the SP just as it is to that facility.  

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