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Skipper

Enough is enough, gun control is needed now

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3 hours ago, greenminer said:

I know it's a small percentage but let's never get to the point where this is acceptable.

I agree.

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3 hours ago, Censored by Laurie said:

I mean...there's like a billion muslims in the world...

I mean...like there's a radicalized sect of peace officers.  Oh wait, no there's not.

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Honest question, when people say "better trained police, what exactly are you wanting?

 

Edit:  So, we can give negative votes, but still not give any examples?  So much for an " open and honest" discussion. 

Edited by Rudy
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56 minutes ago, GTWT said:

Yes, in a state where guns are most heavily regulated. 

In California:

  • "All firearms sales, transfers, including private transactions and sales at gun shows, must go through a California licensed firearms dealer."
  • "It is unlawful to offer for manufacture, sale, give or lend any “assault weapon” or .50 caliber BMG rifle. It is unlawful to possess an “assault weapon” or a .50 caliber BMG rifle unless it is properly registered with the state."

The above are two of the points discussed earlier in this thread.  Hopefully the next lunatic is more up to date on his civic responsibilities.

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54 minutes ago, LongJim said:

Hopefully the next lunatic is more up to date on his civic responsibilities.

Yeah, there's something we can count on.

I think it boils down to whether we value our firearm rights more than we value our children.

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Mental Health reform.  This man was approached twice in the past by law enforcement due to odd behavior and they did nothing.

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2 hours ago, LongJim said:

Yes, in a state where guns are most heavily regulated. 

In California:

  • "All firearms sales, transfers, including private transactions and sales at gun shows, must go through a California licensed firearms dealer."
  • "It is unlawful to offer for manufacture, sale, give or lend any “assault weapon” or .50 caliber BMG rifle. It is unlawful to possess an “assault weapon” or a .50 caliber BMG rifle unless it is properly registered with the state."

The above are two of the points discussed earlier in this thread.  Hopefully the next lunatic is more up to date on his civic responsibilities.

This shooting suggests that limiting magazine capacity would help.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/calif-bar-shooting-witnesses-describe-escaping-as-gunman-reloaded/ar-BBPtrb1?ocid=spartandhp

Once Wennerstrom could tell the gunman was reloading he and others escaped through a window.

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1 hour ago, UNTLifer said:

Mental Health reform.  This man was approached twice in the past by law enforcement due to odd behavior and they did nothing.

so you're suggesting either/both that we need to expand healthcare for all and/or that our police officers need to be better trained. 

agreed. what a day. 

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7 minutes ago, Censored by Laurie said:

so you're suggesting either/both that we need to expand healthcare for all and/or that our police officers need to be better trained. 

agreed. what a day. 

No.  How in the world did you come to that conclusion based on my comment.

We, as a country, need to address mental illness and people that can't seem to handle the stresses of day to day life.  I don't think police officers are the ones that need to be trained to evaluate mental health issues, but they need to have the  ability to submit someone to an evaluation without their consent should their behavior be a danger to others.  In this case, police dealt with this man twice in the past due to his irregular behavior.

Mental Health reform does not equate to expand healthcare for all.

Police are trained to serve and protect not diagnose.

Edited by UNTLifer
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5 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

No.  How in the world did you come to that conclusion based on my comment.

We, as a country, need to address mental illness and people that can't seem to handle the stresses of day to day life.  I don't think police officers are the ones that need to be trained to evaluate mental health issues, but they need to have the  ability to submit someone to an evaluation without their consent should their behavior be a danger to others.  In this case, police dealt with this man twice in the past due to his irregular behavior.

Mental Health reform does not equate to expand healthcare for all.

Police are trained to serve and protect not diagnose.

How did I get there? your words...unless of course they were predictably hollow and you only meant them to distance from any semblance of blaming our country's weird gun culture.  

what then is "Mental Health reform" if not expanding and making more affordable the access to it for everyone? maybe this guy tried to get help and found his shitty insurance wouldn't cover it and he couldn't afford it. 

as for police, in the course of two posts you did this:
- "This man was approached twice in the past by law enforcement due to odd behavior and they did nothing.
- "Police are trained to serve and protect not diagnose."

you lay blame on the police and then immediately absolve them from responsibility. it's a amazing mental gymnastics. or its crazy and we need to circle back to the issue of mental health reform. 

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1 minute ago, Censored by Laurie said:

How did I get there? your words...unless of course they were predictably hollow and you only meant them to distance from any semblance of blaming our country's weird gun culture.  

what then is "Mental Health reform" if not expanding and making more affordable the access to it for everyone? maybe this guy tried to get help and found his shitty insurance wouldn't cover it and he couldn't afford it. 

as for police, in the course of two posts you did this:
- "This man was approached twice in the past by law enforcement due to odd behavior and they did nothing.
- "Police are trained to serve and protect not diagnose."

you lay blame on the police and then immediately absolve them from responsibility. it's a amazing mental gymnastics. or its crazy and we need to circle back to the issue of mental health reform. 

I love going back and forth with you.  You choose to use terms about me such as "predictably hollow" or "amazing mental gymnastics" to suit the twist you like to put out there.

I said "Mental Health Reform" and you changed that to expand healthcare for all.

My comment about the police doing nothing in their previous encounters with this P.O.S. could be misconstrued because I was attempting to be brief.  The current laws are difficult to interpret, as the article below explains better than I can, in regards to committing someone to evaluation against their will.

https://mentalillnesspolicy.org/ivc/involuntary-commitment-concepts.html

 

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57 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

but they need to have the  ability to submit someone to an evaluation without their consent should their behavior be a danger to others.

An civilian should have the power to submit me to authorities/hospitals without my consent?  That's a slippery slope I'm not sure I want to tread.

This is such a tough subject.  No easy answer.  I'll say what I usually think needs to be said in this topic of conversation:

I think common crime and mass shootings are two completely different realms of psychology, and shouldn't be lumped into the same discussion when talking gun control.  Need to be addressed differently.
 

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3 hours ago, greenminer said:

An civilian should have the power to submit me to authorities/hospitals without my consent?  That's a slippery slope I'm not sure I want to tread.
 

No, the police, but that is also a slippery slope.  You are correct, this is a tough subject, but CA has some of the most strict gun laws and this guy was still able to get what he wanted.

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3 hours ago, UNTLifer said:

No, the police, but that is also a slippery slope.  You are correct, this is a tough subject, but CA has some of the most strict gun laws and this guy was still able to get what he wanted.

Police aren’t civilians? I should have said non-military.

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13 hours ago, UNTLifer said:

CA has some of the most strict gun laws and this guy was still able to get what he wanted.

Relative to Oklahoma the California gun laws are strict but in a real sense - not really. A legal sale to this guy would have had to have been through a licensed dealer & a background check would have been conducted.  However, if he had no convictions for felonies the sale would have gone through.  

Twelve innocent people died because this jerk exercised his legal right to own a gun he didn't need.  We need to get our priorities right.

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24 minutes ago, GTWT said:

Twelve innocent people died because this jerk exercised his legal right to own a gun he didn't need.  We need to get our priorities right.

12 innocent people died because something triggered this sack of shit and he decided to kill, period.   

Rick

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1 hour ago, GTWT said:

Relative to Oklahoma the California gun laws are strict but in a real sense - not really. A legal sale to this guy would have had to have been through a licensed dealer & a background check would have been conducted.  However, if he had no convictions for felonies the sale would have gone through. 

The issue is that the prescribed laws that we were talking about earlier in this thread--and similar prohibitions proposed by legislators currently--were in place in CA at the time of this incident, and they had absolutely no effect on this event as a deterrent. 

It illustrates my point about this type of legislation not addressing root cause for these events, which were not widespread in the past.  What in our society, and what stressors have changed, such that this behavior is becoming more frequent?

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I pray for Officer Helus and his family.  The man gave his life for other people he didn’t know.   He and two other heroes saved no telling how many others.

5E1DCB5A-A54C-4576-A13B-3DAF202EDF7E.jpeg.888d03806f0c05b10ecbc7119b8fa854.jpeg

 

 

Rick

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1 hour ago, LongJim said:

The issue is that the prescribed laws that we were talking about earlier in this thread--and similar prohibitions proposed by legislators currently--were in place in CA at the time of this incident, and they had absolutely no effect on this event as a deterrent. 

It illustrates my point about this type of legislation not addressing root cause for these events, which were not widespread in the past.  What in our society, and what stressors have changed, such that this behavior is becoming more frequent?

I don't think you can say the California laws had no effect.  The POS used a handgun instead of an AR15 & his limited magazine capacity apparently allowed some of the kids to escape.  

Other posters are right that gun control will never be all the solution - there are too many nuts out there & they will find a way to hurt people.  Gun control can make it harder for them.  I think some changes such as limiting magazine capacity & requiring back-ground checks for all purchases (and thus limiting private sales) are no-brainers.  

The real solution, in my opinion, is a change in culture leading us to value our children more than our guns.  We don't seem to be going in that direction.

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5 hours ago, GTWT said:

 

Twelve innocent people died because this jerk exercised his legal right to own a gun he didn't need.  We need to get our priorities right.

He had a 9mm with an illegal magazine.

The last sentence in LongJim's  post above is dead on.

One thing that has been added to the story, or I missed it at first, is that police called out a mental health worker after their last interaction with him and they determined that he didn't need further treatment.

We need to find a solution to what is causing these people to go off.

 

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--- I have posted similar  in the past .. and have been called socialist,  liberal,  crazy,  and everything else... I am not anti-gun (semi-rural person) ... but some controls need in place for these military style rapid -fire guns.. They are not toys.... 20+ years ago this type of thing (mass shootings)  happened EXTREMELY rarely but have become commonplace..  People should have a NEED to buy these rapid-fire military type ones.  ..not just want one.  We have controls on dynamite/explosives  and many other things but not these guns ... crazy..  I can't even buy many types of fertilizer that I  purchased for many years ( and sold  when in college).   ---The damned NRA kept claiming Obama was coming after your guns and sales of guns in general  exploded .... it was a lie....[ that bogus claim sold a lot of guns and increased membership for them.]  No effort was made at all or was even suggested .... just better controls of who buys them .... not mental cases and not people who have a bad history .... it may too late because so many now exist .... but some controls might  stop a few of these crazy events.... yes I will get to collect of down votes in the corner ... but I don't care... I am not some "city-type" that hates guns... 

--For those of you oppose better control of who buys guns ..... do you support removing all controls over explosives such as nitro and dynamite... They can be fun too.  Just big firecrackers.  I wish I could still buy some of the fertilizer I once could but can't ...due to more control.....  Very few people used it for "bad" things. ....... a lot less than these extreme guns. 

.Not opposing guns in general ...own them... just these military rapid-fire types (sometimes called assault weapons) I am not even saying ban them .... just demonstrate a NEED for one. ( example: security company) .. also these "extended" magazines. I would not need to shoot a burglar or whoever  25 times. 

Edited by SCREAMING EAGLE-66
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On 11/5/2018 at 9:36 AM, FirefightnRick said:

OMG...one more time for “those” who don’t know or have forgotten....

The ammunition storage and feeding device in a repeating firearm is a magezine..NOT a clip.

 

As for the statement below...

 

 

What is a ”Too often...rare bad cop”?  LOL!

Our Police are EXTREMELY well trained and adjusted.  The countless tens of thousands of tension-filled contact situations they make with the public every single day that doesn’t become the next knee jerk demand of victimhood on the news proves this.

 

Now carry on...

 

Rick

 

more well adjusted police officers.

https://www.npr.org/2018/11/13/667252788/police-fatally-shoot-black-security-guard-who-detained-suspected-shooter

 

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