DRC: UNT delays construction of new track/soccer venue

[Ben Gooding]

6 hours ago, wardly said:

If SMU can't afford baseball, what makes us think UNT can? We would need to raise at least $7,000,000 for venue, plus scholarships,travel expenses,staff, etc. for a sport that would average maybe a few hundred fans. In addition we would have to add a women's program which should be factored into the cost of baseball. I don't understand adding another underfunded program that requires such an expensive start up cost.Please don't tell me that with all the local high school baseball programs we should be successful in a short period of time. How has that thought process worked out in football, men and women's basketball, women's softball, etc.?

If SMU wanted baseball, they would have baseball. If UNT wanted it, they would have it. If UNT really thought baseb was an impossibility as you're trying to infer, it would have never been added to the a master plan. 

And there is way, way, way more legitimate D1 baseball talent coming out of high school/juco than any other sport. Please stop it. 

[Cr1028]

3 hours ago, Ben Gooding said:

If SMU wanted baseball, they would have baseball. If UNT wanted it, they would have it. If UNT really thought baseb was an impossibility as you're trying to infer, it would have never been added to the a master plan. 

And there is way, way, way more legitimate D1 baseball talent coming out of high school/juco than any other sport. Please stop it. 

And they are all clamoring for us to field a team so they can turn down Rice, Tech, and A&M and play for us. You're not being very realistic with your expectations of a startup program. if we reached a .500 record by year three it'd be a miracle.

I'd much rather pour money into football and basketball to get those programs challenging for conference championships before I'd put another program out there to drain our already limited resources.

[unt_rocket09]

14 hours ago, Ben Gooding said:

If SMU wanted baseball, they would have baseball. If UNT wanted it, they would have it. If UNT really thought baseb was an impossibility as you're trying to infer, it would have never been added to the a master plan. 

And there is way, way, way more legitimate D1 baseball talent coming out of high school/juco than any other sport. Please stop it. 

False.  You say drop track, yet Texas has the best track athletes in the nation. Typical baseball guy who has no idea that track is a huge sport in this state. Go to the state track meet in Austin and tell me nobody cares about track. 

[Ben Gooding]

24 minutes ago, unt_rocket09 said:

False.  You say drop track, yet Texas has the best track athletes in the nation. Typical baseball guy who has no idea that track is a huge sport in this state. Go to the state track meet in Austin and tell me nobody cares about track. 

False. I didn't say drop track. 

True. No one outside of the track community and the parents of really care about track. If people cared, it wouldn't be a non revenue generating sport all over the country. University of Arkansas has the most national titles from a team and individual standpoint and nobody cares, or probably even knows that. 

[Ryan Munthe]

15 hours ago, Ben Gooding said:

If SMU wanted baseball, they would have baseball. If UNT wanted it, they would have it. If UNT really thought baseb was an impossibility as you're trying to infer, it would have never been added to the a master plan. 

And there is way, way, way more legitimate D1 baseball talent coming out of high school/juco than any other sport. Please stop it. 

I absolutely love baseball. I'd be UNT baseball's #1 fan. But be real. College baseball is a massive financial drain with little to no return. It'll come, but slower than we want.

[outoftown]

Independently of all the talk about baseball, there is the question of what went wrong here and is not said in the plan.

Do I correctly read between the lines that something went wrong with the initial bidding process? Might the offered prices have overshot the budget? Or did some firm/internal pull something that has them put it out again?

Edited May 28, 2017 by outoftown

[unt_rocket09]

You said for Unt to drop track. Either way not happening.  I wish unt would get baeball as well. 

[wardly]

23 hours ago, Ben Gooding said:

If SMU wanted baseball, they would have baseball. If UNT wanted it, they would have it. If UNT really thought baseb was an impossibility as you're trying to infer, it would have never been added to the a master plan. 

And there is way, way, way more legitimate D1 baseball talent coming out of high school/juco than any other sport. Please stop it. 

What do you mean "please stop it." Just because a baseball park is in the master plan doesn't mean it will ever see the light of day .UTSA's baseball program is 5 years old and average 350 fans per game, as does UTA.Dallas Baptist has one of the top 20 venues in college baseball and averages 1,000 per game, while TCU leads the metroplex with 5,000 fans per game. Based upon our less that stellar attendance at our big 3 sports, what is the number you think we would draw? UNT has been, and continues to be an underfunded athletic program and you want to dump more expense on the fire. Who balances your checkbook? You remind me of the wife whose husband was dying and told the hospital to spare no expense in keeping him alive as long as she didn't have to pay for it.Get real.

[Ben Gooding]

3 minutes ago, wardly said:

What do you mean "please stop it." Just because a baseball park is in the master plan doesn't mean it will ever see the light of day .UTSA's baseball program is 5 years old and average 350 fans per game, as does UTA.Dallas Baptist has one of the top 20 venues in college baseball and averages 1,000 per game, while TCU leads the metroplex with 5,000 fans per game. Based upon our less that stellar attendance at our big 3 sports, what is the number you think we would draw? UNT has been, and continues to be an underfunded athletic program and you want to dump more expense on the fire. Who balances your checkbook? You remind me of the wife whose husband was dying and told the hospital to spare no expense in keeping him alive as long as she didn't have to pay for it.Get real.

My please stop it reference was a matter of talented players in the game. But by your logic, we shouldn't spend a dime on any sport outside of women's soccer, because Lord knows history says it will be an absolute waste. For an attendance figure, look at what our peers average and create an educated number for that. I can assure you we'd blast 350 out of the water. 

[wardly]

44 minutes ago, Ben Gooding said:

My please stop it reference was a matter of talented players in the game. But by your logic, we shouldn't spend a dime on any sport outside of women's soccer, because Lord knows history says it will be an absolute waste. For an attendance figure, look at what our peers average and create an educated number for that. I can assure you we'd blast 350 out of the water. 

In my opinion baseball will be a huge waste of resources and a financial drain on an already underfunded athletic department.I don't see any connection to women's soccer as it was mandated by title 9. Basically we dropped men's soccer on Friday and replaced with women's soccer on Monday.The only 2 sports that have a chance at being somewhat financially viable are football and men's basketball.All other sports are a drain, and until we get enough outside money coming in we just can't afford another non revenue producing sport. Like any other athletic department there are only so many beans in the pot.

[UNTLifer]

I would be comfortable estimating that we would initially have an attendance average of 1,000 to 1,500.  If the program became successful along the lines of DBA or UTA, I I would be comfortable adding 1,000 to that. 

[wardly]

I would be comfortable with 5,000 if I didn't have to pay for any of the start up costs. Are you willing to contribute financially based upon your estimation? How much of the $7,000,000 venue cost are you willing to assume? I don't doubt your interest in UNT having a baseball program, but what part of "we got no money" , and " we got no one to give us the money" escapes you? When J.J. was winning basketball tournaments we only averaged 3,000+ in attendance, and you think UNT fans are going to support a start up program? I just don't think so.

[Cr1028]

After the newness wore off, we would t average 500 per game. I don't know why you would think we'd double or triple or more the attendance of UTSA or UTA. That's pie in the sky talk. If we didn't have a football program already, would you expect our startup to average close to 30k?

Be realistic. It would be nice to surprise with baseball attendance but there are so many things working against us from the start.

Why would a fan outside of his he five mile radius surrounding campus drive up to watch an average to below average college baseball team using aluminum bats when they could just drive to Arlington and see a substantially better product. School pride only gets you so far, at some point you have to realistically look at what you are trying to sell here.

[TheTastyGreek]

2 hours ago, UNTLifer said:

I would be comfortable estimating that we would initially have an attendance average of 1,000 to 1,500.  

From this year's regular season attendance averages:

Oklahoma - 1,001
Notre Dame - 401
Michigan - 1,023
Ohio State - 1,028
UCLA - 875
USC - 619
Missouri - 805

4 schools in CUSA drew 1,500+ this year, but pulling even a relatively modest crowd of 1,000 per game is too much for those power schools with huge fan bases to manage. Less than 70 schools in all of D1 sports managed 1,000+ per game in 2017. 

Even if we managed it for an inaugural season... I'm skeptical that we'd perform that well over any extended period of time, even if we were relatively successful. 

[Ben Gooding]

54 minutes ago, Cr1028 said:

After the newness wore off, we would t average 500 per game. I don't know why you would think we'd double or triple or more the attendance of UTSA or UTA. That's pie in the sky talk. If we didn't have a football program already, would you expect our startup to average close to 30k?

Be realistic. It would be nice to surprise with baseball attendance but there are so many things working against us from the start.

Why would a fan outside of his he five mile radius surrounding campus drive up to watch an average to below average college baseball team using aluminum bats when they could just drive to Arlington and see a substantially better product. School pride only gets you so far, at some point you have to realistically look at what you are trying to sell here.

And this is an argument you could make for any sport associated with UNT. 

No, I wouldn't expect Apogee to sellout. But that's because of our apathetic approach from the BOR on down towards football. Baseball doesn't have the decades of blemishes and embarrassments that our football program does. 

To note: I believe every D1 baseball program in Texas with the exception of ACU & Texas A&M Corpus Christi are .500 programs or better. But they are ACU and Texas AM CC. There is succees in baseball to be had. It could be our thing at UNT. 

[Ben Gooding]

32 minutes ago, TheTastyGreek said:

From this year's regular season attendance averages:

Oklahoma - 1,001
Notre Dame - 401
Michigan - 1,023
Ohio State - 1,028
UCLA - 875
USC - 619
Missouri - 805

4 schools in CUSA drew 1,500+ this year, but pulling even a relatively modest crowd of 1,000 per game is too much for those power schools with huge fan bases to manage. Less than 70 schools in all of D1 sports managed 1,000+ per game in 2017. 

Even if we managed it for an inaugural season... I'm skeptical that we'd perform that well over any extended period of time, even if we were relatively successful. 

Not to push what you're saying away as not having some validity to it, but all of these programs except Missouri are true bluebloods in a sport outside of baseball. And none of them are really not any good except for Michigan and OU, sort of. 

UNT, with it being in Texas (and in baseball that truly does mean something), could be really good pretty quick. 

[UNTLifer]

4 hours ago, Cr1028 said:

After the newness wore off, we would t average 500 per game. I don't know why you would think we'd double or triple or more the attendance of UTSA or UTA. That's pie in the sky talk. If we didn't have a football program already, would you expect our startup to average close to 30k?

Be realistic. It would be nice to surprise with baseball attendance but there are so many things working against us from the start.

Why would a fan outside of his he five mile radius surrounding campus drive up to watch an average to below average college baseball team using aluminum bats when they could just drive to Arlington and see a substantially better product. School pride only gets you so far, at some point you have to realistically look at what you are trying to sell here.

Who said we would be average to below average?

4 hours ago, wardly said:

I would be comfortable with 5,000 if I didn't have to pay for any of the start up costs. Are you willing to contribute financially based upon your estimation? How much of the $7,000,000 venue cost are you willing to assume? I don't doubt your interest in UNT having a baseball program, but what part of "we got no money" , and " we got no one to give us the money" escapes you? When J.J. was winning basketball tournaments we only averaged 3,000+ in attendance, and you think UNT fans are going to support a start up program? I just don't think so.

At one time the Goldfields were willing to underwrite the program.  I think you underestimate the fact that I have long considered Denton a baseball town.

 

The attendance for cold weather schools plus those sitting in the middle of large Metro areas, UCLA and USC, are poor comparisons.  That really leaves OU and Missouri.  Has Missouri ever had a strong baseball program?  OU is about the only valid comparison

[BTG_Fan1]

The biggest negative to baseball is that a sport that averages about a 2 million negative to the AD Budget. I think it would be great if UNT had it, because of the distance between denton and Arlington. Also, the local schools would be allow for cheaper options in terms of travel...

My question is, with the success of teams in CUSA, does it lead to schools sharing winnings, similar to what CUSA does with bowl games? 

 

On 5/27/2017 at 9:41 AM, DeepGreen said:

Another UNT "black eye" for UNT.  Other universities seem to get the job done, yet we can't.  Very, very disappointing.

Wonder if the IPF will be delayed for 2-3 more years.

I doubt it will be delayed that long, but it's worrisome that we still have not heard anything about it the IPF. Someone had brought it up, that it was close to being announced before the spring game and still nothing.

Not saying WB isn't doing anything, but it's very very worrisome to me that the soccer/track stadium has been announced and now it's delayed for unknown reasons when it seemed like everything was in place and a major overhaul to the football program is taking a lot of time as well. I understand getting it right the first time, but you don't announce something when it's not complete, nor do you inform the coaches that it will be ready for the next season and then delay it.

[DeepGreen]

This is just the way it is at UNT when it comes to athletic facilities.  We are grossly underfunded by our Alumni when it comes to athletics.  The Mean Green Club?  Hardly any "big money" comes from there.  Occasionally someone (C. Dan) comes across with a wad of cash to help fund a "hot topic" item, but he can't be called upon for everything.  I'm not sure where our fundraising arm of UNT comes from.  I just keep shaking my head when I read these stories.  So sad.

[UNTLifer]

Do you all that are upset about this even read the article?  It states funding is in place and that this is a design issue.  I believe there is a quote that says it is financial, but what they mean is that they are wanting to slow down and insure they are getting the best value for the dollar.  Sorry, but this is smart.  Get it right from the get go.

[Cr1028]

1 hour ago, UNTLifer said:

Do you all that are upset about this even read the article?  It states funding is in place and that this is a design issue.  I believe there is a quote that says it is financial, but what they mean is that they are wanting to slow down and insure they are getting the best value for the dollar.  Sorry, but this is smart.  Get it right from the get go.

I think their are people confused on soccer/track and baseball. This topic kinda got diverted 

[xyresic]

Speaking hypothetically (of course) the company tasked with the project had essentially not even begun work, yet found a few creative ways to be several million over budget from the jump. To top it off the company wanted to get lawyers involved, so they were told to kindly exit stage left.

In a situation like that it makes sense to find a new company that will do a solid job with out trying to gouge.

That being said the UNT system group in Dallas is a bit of a fiasco as they add to the cost of these projects with out providing much in return. Hopefully the new chancellor will see this for what it is and allow the Denton campus to thrive with out an unnecessary handicap.

[GreenMachine]

6 hours ago, BTG_Fan1 said:

The biggest negative to baseball is that a sport that averages about a 2 million negative to the AD Budget. I think it would be great if UNT had it, because of the distance between denton and Arlington. Also, the local schools would be allow for cheaper options in terms of travel...

My question is, with the success of teams in CUSA, does it lead to schools sharing winnings, similar to what CUSA does with bowl games? 

 

I doubt it will be delayed that long, but it's worrisome that we still have not heard anything about it the IPF. Someone had brought it up, that it was close to being announced before the spring game and still nothing.

Not saying WB isn't doing anything, but it's very very worrisome to me that the soccer/track stadium has been announced and now it's delayed for unknown reasons when it seemed like everything was in place and a major overhaul to the football program is taking a lot of time as well. I understand getting it right the first time, but you don't announce something when it's not complete, nor do you inform the coaches that it will be ready for the next season and then delay it.

Delayed for unknown reasons? The article was very specific on the delay.

[DeepGreen]

3 hours ago, UNTLifer said:

Do you all that are upset about this even read the article?  It states funding is in place and that this is a design issue.  I believe there is a quote that says it is financial, but what they mean is that they are wanting to slow down and insure they are getting the best value for the dollar.  Sorry, but this is smart.  Get it right from the get go.

If it was a design issue, shouldn't that have been resolved before making a public announcement that the project would begin in the Spring/ Summer of 2017?

 Money?  Check.

Announcement? Check

Design?  Nope.

Year Delay? Yep

Is that how a project is supposed to go?  What am I missing here?

Edited May 30, 2017 by DeepGreen

[BTG_Fan1]

2 hours ago, GreenMachine said:

Delayed for unknown reasons? The article was very specific on the delay.

The article says that it was delayed so that they wouldn't rush, that isn't a real reason. There is a reason to slow down the pace and that's isn't because all of a sudden they want the right fit. If that's the reason then what changed or why did they settle on the wrong fit at the start? This new stadium was the start of a new wave of sense of investment into the entire sports program but now they are having 2nd thoughts on what they had originally designed/agreed on.

We have a track program that can not make 1 penny, nor can it even have a "home" track meet. The AD Office told coaches/ players/ recruits and students that it would completed by a certain time and now it won't be. 

And again the reason that was given "we don't wanna rush" isn't valid. UNT announced it and promised things, and now they showed they can not follow through or they showed how poorly they plan things with them announcing before it's really done.