Give me Liberty or give me death!

[GrandGreen]

58 minutes ago, UNTcrazy727 said:

It sounds like you and everyone else are just pissed we're not playing Army. 

I'm surprised so many people can't see the logic in this move. We're dropping two games with Army so we can bring a marquee opponent to Apogee in 2019.  To balance out the schedule we had to set the home-and-home with Liberty. Yes, they are not the ideal choice, but it cost us ZERO dollars and SHOULD be games we WIN. You can't say that playing Army.

Scheduling two one-off games would have cost us money or would have forced us to schedule home-and-home series with two universities, which would kill our scheduling flexibility. This fanbase has been bitching to play big name school at Apogee and now that we have an AD who is making it happen people are bitching because we had to cut two games with Army. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It was either cut the Army series or the SMU series and Wren made the right choice hands down. 

Why do you think that Liberty costs Zero dollars?  That is just not true, just because there is no guarantee involved; does not mean that games don't have real financial consequences.   If you looked at this series in a vacuum, the costs to travel to Lynchburg is not inexpensive and the revenues gained at the home game with Liberty are probably going to be significantly less than most games.   Nearly all home and away series are essentially the same, some have equal guarantees to away teams which is the same as zero guarantees over the life of the series.  So in actuality, the cost of the Liberty game is the equivalent of any home and away series.  However, the revenue and fan interest could be far less than a two game series with most fb clubs.  

Being that apparently the Liberty game is just a part of a substantial schedule change, the only way it can be judged as a good move either for fans or financially can't be judged at this point.  

 

[untjim1995]

17 minutes ago, Ben Gooding said:

The comment, "No one really wants to play North Texas" is damning. Then in the same breath stated that Army is too difficult of a OOC matchup may be a worse comment. Be an outsider for a minute and look at these comments. Then be that same outsider and see our latest home n home OOC series that was scheduled. This isn't ignorance. This is just piecing the puzzle together. Maybe Wren has a big ass piece of said puzzle. I really hope he does, but I'm not taking anyone's word on it until I see it written up as fact. 

 

Totally agree here. BG is right in saying that the comments we have heard so far are words that RV would have said. If Army is deemed too difficult an OOC opponent, we need to just drop down to FCS. Sorry, but Army is usually a bottom quartile FBS team, if not worse. Liberty is FBS in name only...they may be a SBC team, but nobody who follows college football here in Texas will look at them as being higher than SFA or SHSU. And both of those teams would provide MUCH more in fan attendance and even local media attention than us playing a school from Virginia that has very controversial ties to fundamentalist views that aren't exactly aligned with 99% of academia.

No matter how you put it, trading Army for Liberty is a horrible decision unless it brings us a HOME GAME with a recognized and regional P5 opponent. If this brings us Wake Forest, Boston College, Washington State, or Oregon State here, the deal is terrible--Army would bring more fans than any of these teams would. If its a Big XII or SEC school, then its probably a better deal for us, unless its an Iowa State or Vandy home game, because, again, Army brings in more fans to a game than either of them would bring here. But if its anyone else in those leagues, its a better deal for us in the end and I will praise Wren Baker for a playing chess while everyone thinks he's losing at checkers.

But for those of you who blindly place their trust in this place, you are either ignorant of our history, you just believe in Mean Green unicorns and don't want to believe we would make a bad deal, or you just love being a masochist.

 

[UNTLifer]

2 hours ago, Ben Gooding said:

Given the history of the AD, how would you recommend people roll? 

Given that the current AD was hired at the end of July 2016, I would state that his history/body of work is too small to judge at this time.

[Ben Gooding]

Just now, UNTLifer said:

Given that the current AD was hired at the end of July 2016, I would state that his history/body of work is too small to judge at this time.

***Athletic Department*** (not athletic director) 

And everything is the same until it is different. In light of recent events, I would say everything is much closer to the same than different. Wouldn't you? 

[KRAM1]

3 hours ago, oldguystudent said:

Wren's from Mizzou, right?  Well, I'm in a Missouri state motto state of mind:  Show Me

Good idea...but, sorry, not this time.

[UNTLifer]

15 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

Totally agree here. BG is right in saying that the comments we have heard so far are words that RV would have said. If Army is deemed too difficult an OOC opponent, we need to just drop down to FCS. Sorry, but Army is usually a bottom quartile FBS team, if not worse. Liberty is FBS in name only...they may be a SBC team, but nobody who follows college football here in Texas will look at them as being higher than SFA or SHSU. And both of those teams would provide MUCH more in fan attendance and even local media attention than us playing a school from Virginia that has very controversial ties to fundamentalist views that aren't exactly aligned with 99% of academia.

No matter how you put it, trading Army for Liberty is a horrible decision unless it brings us a HOME GAME with a recognized and regional P5 opponent. If this brings us Wake Forest, Boston College, Washington State, or Oregon State here, the deal is terrible--Army would bring more fans than any of these teams would. If its a Big XII or SEC school, then its probably a better deal for us, unless its an Iowa State or Vandy home game, because, again, Army brings in more fans to a game than either of them would bring here. But if its anyone else in those leagues, its a better deal for us in the end and I will praise Wren Baker for a playing chess while everyone thinks he's losing at checkers.

But for those of you who blindly place their trust in this place, you are either ignorant of our history, you just believe in Mean Green unicorns and don't want to believe we would make a bad deal, or you just love being a masochist.

 

I think you have to read the article in context to understand what Baker is stating.  He didn't say Army was too difficult an opponent.  He stated that, "The Army series is difficult on your team," Baker said. "Every defensive coach in the country would tell you preparing for the triple-option gets you out of your regular plan. Then you have to adjust the next week and go back to what you regularly do. You also tend to rack up some injuries. We like playing Army, but we felt we could get more out of playing other teams." 

I take that to mean the difficulty is they run a system that is almost obsolete and takes them out of their normal routine of preparing for more conventional offenses.  Someone else also stated that they, as well as the other service academies, cut block which can lead to injuries along your DL.

 

Regarding the comment about people not wanting to play UNT, I again would argue that it is taken out of context.  Here is Baker's quote: "It's not an easy situation," Baker said. "Getting the Liberty series is Step 1 or 2 in the moves we are trying to make. I am trying to put together a schedule that is interesting that will also allow us to grow as a team. Not everyone wants to play North Texas. We don't want to schedule two-for-ones or [money] games."  

I take this to mean people want to play us at their house for a paycheck, or schedule a 2 for 1 and Baker would prefer to schedule 1 for 1's.  I may be off base, but that is how I read this while trying not to let past AD's comments or lack of creative scheduling affect my thoughts on Baker.  He should be given a chance to try and fix RV's lazy scheduling.

[KRAM1]

2 hours ago, wardly said:

The best question asked with no answer to date is what did it cost us to buy out of Army games.

I believe the answer is ZERO.  But, there has been no absolute confirmation of that...just an "unnamed " source.

[UNTLifer]

8 minutes ago, Ben Gooding said:

***Athletic Department*** (not athletic director) 

And everything is the same until it is different. In light of recent events, I would say everything is much closer to the same than different. Wouldn't you? 

No, because it has been made perfectly clear that Baker is working to provide us with more flexibility in scheduling, was visibly irritated that someone leaked the Liberty series prior to everything being put in place, etc...  There is a lot of new personnel in place that, I would assume, affects the structure of the department.  Spending what we have on a new basketball coach, the renovations to the AC and the plans for the IPF and soccer/track facility, I would say everything is not "much closer to the same than different."

[Ben Gooding]

15 minutes ago, untjim1995 said:

Totally agree here. BG is right in saying that the comments we have heard so far are words that RV would have said. If Army is deemed too difficult an OOC opponent, we need to just drop down to FCS. Sorry, but Army is usually a bottom quartile FBS team, if not worse. Liberty is FBS in name only...they may be a SBC team, but nobody who follows college football here in Texas will look at them as being higher than SFA or SHSU. And both of those teams would provide MUCH more in fan attendance and even local media attention than us playing a school from Virginia that has very controversial ties to fundamentalist views that aren't exactly aligned with 99% of academia.

No matter how you put it, trading Army for Liberty is a horrible decision unless it brings us a HOME GAME with a recognized and regional P5 opponent. If this brings us Wake Forest, Boston College, Washington State, or Oregon State here, the deal is terrible--Army would bring more fans than any of these teams would. If its a Big XII or SEC school, then its probably a better deal for us, unless its an Iowa State or Vandy home game, because, again, Army brings in more fans to a game than either of them would bring here. But if its anyone else in those leagues, its a better deal for us in the end and I will praise Wren Baker for a playing chess while everyone thinks he's losing at checkers.

But for those of you who blindly place their trust in this place, you are either ignorant of our history, you just believe in Mean Green unicorns and don't want to believe we would make a bad deal, or you just love being a masochist.

 

It's a double edge sword to be realistic. I don't think we're going to nail down the likes of OU, UT, LSU, ATM, or even OkieSt in a home and home. I think we could all agree to that. Wren may be working on a deal with universities such as KU, Vandy, IASt, etc. I'm sorry, but you down hip check Army off of your schedule to bring in the likes of Vandy, KU, or an Iowa State. You just don't. You can't rid SMU series either. So, you cut your losses at a couple FCS opponents to free up that scheduling and pay them off and hope that the revenue created from that 1 P5 home game will outweigh the payout for the two FCS teams bought out. My guess is that it would, easily. But, one also has to wonder what we had to give up to release ourselves out of 2 Army games. Either way, then the issue of having a very difficult schedule actually does come into play with this scenario. It would make for a damn fine home schedule for one football season, but the W/L record may take a hit. The best move would have been to rearrange the Army series as he is doing, but do it in years that will line up to fit your need of a potential home and home with X university. Not plugging Liberty in these offsetting years to free up scheduling and leaving an ex-Army date open. By doing that, you get do lose 2 Army games as we are anyways, but you're also replacing those 2 games with a home and home with whatever local P5 available. This also leaves Liberty the F off the schedule. And more importantly UNT out of Lynchburg, Virginia. Now I am sure there are intricacies to this that I am absolutely unaware of. But we can't just assume that all options were exhausted and all roads led to Lynchburg, Virginia.   

[UNTLifer]

3 minutes ago, Ben Gooding said:

 Now I am sure there are intricacies to this that I am absolutely unaware of. But we can't just assume that all options were exhausted and all roads led to Lynchburg, Virginia.   

Yet we can assume your opinion is correct?

[untjim1995]

Just now, Ben Gooding said:

It's a double edge sword to be realistic. I don't think we're going to nail down the likes of OU, UT, LSU, ATM, or even OkieSt in a home and home. I think we could all agree to that. Wren may be working on a deal with universities such as KU, Vandy, IASt, etc. I'm sorry, but you down hip check Army off of your schedule to bring in the likes of Vandy, KU, or an Iowa State. You just don't. You can't rid SMU series either. So, you cut your losses at a couple FCS opponents to free up that scheduling and pay them off and hope that the revenue created from that 1 P5 home game will outweigh the payout for the two FCS teams bought out. My guess is that it would, easily. But, one also has to wonder what we had to give up to release ourselves out of 2 Army games. Either way, then the issue of having a very difficult schedule actually does come into play with this scenario. It would make for a damn fine home schedule for one football season, but the W/L record may take a hit. The best move would have been to rearrange the Army series as he is doing, but do it in years that will line up to fit your need of a potential home and home with X university. Not plugging Liberty in these offsetting years to free up scheduling and leaving an ex-Army date open. By doing that, you get do lose 2 Army games as we are anyways, but you're also replacing those 2 games with a home and home with whatever local P5 available. This also leaves Liberty the F off the schedule. And more importantly UNT out of Lynchburg, Virginia. Now I am sure there are intricacies to this that I am absolutely unaware of. But we can't just assume that all options were exhausted and all roads led to Lynchburg, Virginia.   

I tend to agree on all of this, but just to give you some thought on Okie Lite--they've played road games in the past at CMU, FAU, ULL, Troy, and UTSA. There is no reason they shouldn't have been approached about a long series here. They don't play here annually, unlike Tech, Baylor, OU, UT, A&M, and Arkansas do with games at Jerry World and the Cotton Bowl. OSU could play in FW and Denton every other year and be in front of all of the DFW alumni and recruits they need for their program and it would be a great fit. But, with RV in charge, Tulsa was considered a huge get for scheduling in OOC, and that was soon replaced with the likes of Portland State and Butt Cookman to play here. OSU was probably looked at like they were freaking Alabama by RV...

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

1 hour ago, UNT Five&Dime said:

I said I didn't care, so can someone else ask @Ben Gooding for the list of FBS teams with a home game open in September 2018 and a road game open in October 2021?

Army is on the list.

[Ben Gooding]

2 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

No, because it has been made perfectly clear that Baker is working to provide us with more flexibility in scheduling, was visibly irritated that someone leaked the Liberty series prior to everything being put in place, etc...  There is a lot of new personnel in place that, I would assume, affects the structure of the department.  Spending what we have on a new basketball coach, the renovations to the AC and the plans for the IPF and soccer/track facility, I would say everything is not "much closer to the same than different."

OK. Well, we had losing seasons in all major sports his first year. Though none of the coaches are his hires. But, also, his hires at North Texas are exactly 0-0. We don't know if we can even justify these new executive positions that he brought on right when he was hired or not, because we haven't seen numbers. Some of the accomplishments you named off were already in motion when he signed on. He left a bball coach on for far too long. He scheduled a home and home with Liberty. <--- That is worse scheduling than anything RV ever did, and that's saying something. 

He did get a home and home with Texas Tech. I will be almost 40 years old when I attend that game if God grants me another 10 years. I will be on the verge of prostate checks when that game comes along. My unborn children could be in almost 5th grade. Texas Tech could throw us a bone in 2022 and be like nah. 

2 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

Yet we can assume your opinion is correct?

No, not at all.  

[UNTLifer]

1 minute ago, Ben Gooding said:

OK. Well, we had losing seasons in all major sports his first year. Though none of the coaches are his hires. But, also, his hires at North Texas are exactly 0-0. We don't know if we can even justify these new executive positions that he brought on right when he was hired or not, because we haven't seen numbers. Some of the accomplishments you named off were already in motion when he signed on. He left a bball coach on for far too long. He scheduled a home and home with Liberty. <--- That is worse scheduling than anything RV ever did, and that's saying something. 

He did get a home and home with Texas Tech. I will be almost 40 years old when I attend that game if God grants me another 10 years. I will be on the verge of prostate checks when that game comes along. My unborn children could be in almost 5th grade. Texas Tech could throw us a bone in 2022 and be like nah. 

No, not at all.  

1st Bolded: Which ones?  The locker room reno?  Besides that, what was in motion?

2nd Bolded: As I stated, his comment was that this would provide some flexibility moving forward, so let's see the final product before we judge.  That is all I am stating.

[MeanGreenMailbox aka TFLF]

6 minutes ago, Ben Gooding said:

It's a double edge sword to be realistic. I don't think we're going to nail down the likes of OU, UT, LSU, ATM, or even OkieSt in a home and home. I think we could all agree to that. Wren may be working on a deal with universities such as KU, Vandy, IASt, etc. I'm sorry, but you down hip check Army off of your schedule to bring in the likes of Vandy, KU, or an Iowa State. You just don't. You can't rid SMU series either. So, you cut your losses at a couple FCS opponents to free up that scheduling and pay them off and hope that the revenue created from that 1 P5 home game will outweigh the payout for the two FCS teams bought out. My guess is that it would, easily. But, one also has to wonder what we had to give up to release ourselves out of 2 Army games. Either way, then the issue of having a very difficult schedule actually does come into play with this scenario. It would make for a damn fine home schedule for one football season, but the W/L record may take a hit. The best move would have been to rearrange the Army series as he is doing, but do it in years that will line up to fit your need of a potential home and home with X university. Not plugging Liberty in these offsetting years to free up scheduling and leaving an ex-Army date open. By doing that, you get do lose 2 Army games as we are anyways, but you're also replacing those 2 games with a home and home with whatever local P5 available. This also leaves Liberty the F off the schedule. And more importantly UNT out of Lynchburg, Virginia. Now I am sure there are intricacies to this that I am absolutely unaware of. But we can't just assume that all options were exhausted and all roads led to Lynchburg, Virginia.   

Also, if anyone thinks Vandy or Iowa State is going to be less physically taxing than Army...?

The attractive on-the-field thing about Army is that is was a winnable game.  Vandy and Iowa State are not as much as Army was. 

[Ben Gooding]

1 minute ago, UNTLifer said:

1st Bolded: Which ones?  The locker room reno?  Besides that, what was in motion?

2nd Bolded: As I stated, his comment was that this would provide some flexibility moving forward, so let's see the final product before we judge.  That is all I am stating.

Locker Rooms and Athletic complex reno have been in the works for a while. And please correct me if I am wrong, an IPF has been in the masterplan since 2013 (or 2012)? 

Yes, I get the Liberty series = schedule flexibility. I also get that I don't care. If his life depended on finding another option, he would have. Not to say his life his depending on anything, just using it figuratively. 

5 minutes ago, MeanGreenMailbox said:

Also, if anyone thinks Vandy or Iowa State is going to be less physically taxing than Army...?

The attractive on-the-field thing about Army is that is was a winnable game.  Vandy and Iowa State are not as much as Army was. 

It doesn't make any sense. I wish he had never said any of that. 

[Cerebus]

1 hour ago, untjim1995 said:

Remember when RV took over here? He was the one who was finally going to fix our ails, starting this MGC

RV did not start up this MGC.  It was already a fan run operation.   The founders post on this board.  RV convinced them to let him run it in house.

[GreenMachine]

3 hours ago, Ben Gooding said:

Given the history of the AD, how would you recommend people roll? 

I could not care less. I find this board amusing. 

[Ben Gooding]

5 minutes ago, GreenMachine said:

I could not care less. I find this board amusing. 

Oh ok. Thanks for your contribution. 

[MeanGreen_MBA]

58 minutes ago, UNTLifer said:

No, because it has been made perfectly clear that Baker is working to provide us with more flexibility in scheduling, was visibly irritated that someone leaked the Liberty series prior to everything being put in place, etc...  There is a lot of new personnel in place that, I would assume, affects the structure of the department.  Spending what we have on a new basketball coach, the renovations to the AC and the plans for the IPF and soccer/track facility, I would say everything is not "much closer to the same than different."

a voice of reason....thnx....

[ValleyBoy]

I have not followed UNT much since my family member graduated from UNT but I had to come back and check out the reaction to your AD's remarks.  To my knowledge your AD's remarks are not new but he is the first to come out and say them.  As a Georgia Southern fan what your AD said is nothing new to us, he is just the first to come out a say it publicly.  Army will not have any problem getting someone else to play them.  What your AD said publicly is that we do not want to play any team that runs a certain type of offense.  Well the Mean Green will no longer schedule any football games against Air Force, Navy,  Georgia Southern, Georgia Tech and possibly Coastal Carolina if they go to the same offense that there new offensive coordinator ran at his last job.  With the success that the above teams have had running the spread triple option it would not surprise me if 5 to 10 other schools are running it in the next few years.  The only thing that has stopped it from being ran by more schools is that the coaching tree that can put the system into play is still fairly small but slowly growing.   .

Edited May 11, 2017 by ValleyBoy

[Ben Gooding]

14 minutes ago, ValleyBoy said:

I have not followed UNT much since my family member graduated from UNT but I had to come back and check out the reaction to your AD's remarks.  To my knowledge your AD's remarks are not new but he is the first to come out and say them.  As a Georgia Southern fan what your AD said is nothing new to us, he is just the first to come out a say it publicly.  Army will not have any problem getting someone else to play them.  What your AD said publicly is that we do not want to play any team that rules a certain type of offense.  Well the Mean Green will no longer schedule any football games against Air Force, Navy,  Georgia Southern, Georgia Tech and possibly Coastal Carolina if they go to the same offense that there new offensive coordinator ran at his last job.  With the success that the above teams have had running the spread triple option it would not surprise me if 5 to 10 other schools are running it in the next few years.  The only thing that has stopped it from being ran by more schools is that the coaching tree that can put the system into play is still fairly small but slowly growing.   .

When McCarney was fired, I was a big advocate of the spread option. It's an effective offense in college. It's not going to get you to 12-0 in modern college football. But it will provide consistency, and that is something that UNT has not had in a very long time. I would take five 9-3's over one 12-0 any day of the week. 

Edited May 11, 2017 by Ben Gooding

[untjim1995]

45 minutes ago, Cerebus said:

RV did not start up this MGC.  It was already a fan run operation.   The founders post on this board.  RV convinced them to let him run it in house.

Thanks for the clarification...never knew that.

[ValleyBoy]

Nick Sabin on Army HC offense when he was head coach at Georgia Southern.

 

 

[Ben Gooding]

2 minutes ago, ValleyBoy said:

Nick Sabin on Army HC offense when he was head coach at Georgia Southern.

 

 

No credibility posting anything Saban is ranting about. He bitches left and right and praises all opponents just so his players don't get complacent. But I get what you're saying though.